Olympus E-P1 vs Nikon D300

[Quentin]

The E-P1 does seem to offer the most versatility going forward, unles you reallly want to wait for some overpriced Leica substitute.  There are adapters for normal 4/3 lenses, of course, plus old Zuiko lenses, Panasonic is supposed to be releasing an adapter for Leica M and R lenses, and there are bound to be more.  I don't own one but speaking to someone who does, I'm considering a purchase soon.

[paratom]

There are four reasons for the film Leica successes in photojournalism and art photography:
1. Easy (fast) to use
2. Sturdy
3. Excellent lenses (microcontast not least)
4. A viewfinder that shows also what is outside the frame. (re-compostion until the exposure is made)
The Leica M8 fails to carry the Leica heritage into the digital era due to inconsistent results and lack of reliability. The E-P1 is a cheap little camera that can be further developed: Performance need to be improved. Then we have the viewfinder issue..... I do not think, for reasons above, that an EVF will do the job. Rather ther need to be an zoom optical viewfinder (information-free). Putting the E-P1 side by side with my old M2 it looks like upscaling it to M2 size would make room for a proper viewfinder. The E-PL (L for Leica heritage   ) would be bigger, heavier and about three times as expensive - a bargain for any pro! All that is needeed here is a Leica - Olympus joint venture!
Per Kylberg

I do not agree that the Leica M8 fails. It might not be as reliable as earlier film bodies-but besides that if does a great job.
I am not sure if a e-p1 is more reliable or takes more abuse than a M8.
2 different cameras and having used both I much prefer the M8 and the optical rangefinder as long as I dont need a zoom lens or video or tele reach.

[teddillard]

I do not agree that the Leica M8 fails. It might not be as reliable as earlier film bodies-but besides that if does a great job.
I am not sure if a e-p1 is more reliable or takes more abuse than a M8.
2 different cameras and having used both I much prefer the M8 and the optical rangefinder as long as I dont need a zoom lens or video or tele reach.

I totally agree.  They are two completely different cameras, and I can't understand why they are constantly compared. Help me out on this.  Is it just the absence of a prism that makes people make that connection?

[JohnBrew]

I don't understand where all this M8 abuse comes from. I've never had a moments problem with mine and I have one of the first ones. Many people seem to pick up on one person's perspective or griping and extrapolate that to include every one which has been manufactured. It seems to me that if you don't have personal experience with a camera you've got no business slighting it.
Also this new camera has absolutely no track record. How can we assume its reliability?

[250swb]

snip.. It seems to me that if you don't have personal experience with a camera you've got no business slighting it.
Also this new camera has absolutely no track record. How can we assume its reliability?

Do you need to assume reliability, other than its ability to work for a year until the next model is released? Then sell it and get the next. It would take many years before you have lost the same amount of money in devaluation that an M8 would cost new, and each time you get a new camera with more of this and more of that. You don't have to look forward to years spent taking pictures at 10mp when the world has moved on, for instance. Its not a perfect fiscal point of view, but what priority is more important, the flexibility and features new technology gives you, or the knowledge that on a desert island you can knock nails into your raft with an M8 and still take a souvenir picture before casting off?

Steve

[Derry]

one thing I find the Internet does is explode any negative into unbelievable proportions which I seldom see on any positives,,??

it is the old yarn where you tell one person a story and by the time it has reached the tenth person there is no resemblance to the original story,,

seems many want to embellish or add their two cents onto the story,, the old well if you think that is bad let me tell ya what happen to me,,

nowadays what ya see and hear about a product on the net is is most likely not what ya get,,

Derry

[teddillard]

There are four reasons for the film Leica successes in photojournalism and art photography:
1. Easy (fast) to use
2. Sturdy
3. Excellent lenses (microcontast not least)
4. A viewfinder that shows also what is outside the frame. (re-compostion until the exposure is made)

Sorry, but I think this list leaves out the most important point of all, and one that gets overlooked almost constantly in threads I've read.  The Leica, and any rangefinder, gives you the ability to shoot at minimum aperture without viewing the frame at "wide-open" depth-of-field.  Shooting at so-called "hyperfocal distance" is a style and look- a way of seeing, if you will, that is unique to rangefinder shooting- and most commonly Leica.  It has made a huge contribution to the history of photography, and photojournalism in particular.  

My favorite example is Costa Manos' work, American Color- OK, also because he's a friend of mine, but he's a Magnum photographer whose style evolved because he shot with a rangefinder, and could visualize the frame without the SLR full-aperture viewing- something I've always felt is a disadvantage of SLR cameras that never gets mentioned.  

I've shot with a rangefinder from the very beginning, and though I did shoot with an SLR later on, my reaction to the "you see what the lens sees" line was, first, uh, no, you don't, and second, so what?  LOL

I just put the final touches on my M8 review and this point kept coming back to me...  there are numerous threads talking about "digital rangefinders" and the lack thereof- but nobody talks about this...  interestingly, composing on an LCD that gives you a focus preview, like the E-P1, accomplishes the same thing, but by taking the SLR to the next level- by seeing what the sensor is actually going to see, we get the view of the lens as well as the actual depth of field.  One reason I get so excited about the LCD as a viewing device- the best of a groundglass with none of the limitations.

[Jeremy Payne]

>>> Shooting at so-called "hyperfocal distance" is ... unique to rangefinder shooting

Really?  What am I doing then when I shoot that way with my SLR?

[teddillard]

>>> Shooting at so-called "hyperfocal distance" is ... unique to rangefinder shooting

Really?  What am I doing then when I shoot that way with my SLR?

You're certainly shooting that way, but you are not viewing that way through the lens.  We can argue semantics, but you can "take pictures" using hyperfocal distance with an SLR, but I'd argue that you can only "shoot", that is, compose and shoot that way with a rangefinder.  Anyway, not really my point.

[Jeremy Payne]

You're certainly shooting that way, but you are not viewing that way through the lens.  We can argue semantics, but you can "take pictures" using hyperfocal distance with an SLR, but I'd argue that you can only "shoot", that is, compose and shoot that way with a rangefinder.  Anyway, not really my point.

I'm curious ... I've never owned a rangefinder.  What can you see through the viewfinder that I can't?  I have a DOF preview at the touch of a button.

[teddillard]

I'm curious ... I've never owned a rangefinder.  What can you see through the viewfinder that I can't?  I have a DOF preview at the touch of a button.

It's hard to describe, after you shoot with one for a few years, but it's not just about being able to see what's in focus when you hit the DOF preview.  After all, when you do that you get a very dark image, hardly visible if you're shooting at hyperfocal- generally close to, if not, minimum aperture.  

You're viewing at very close to how you perceive it when you see the subject- everything in focus (whether it is, actually and technically to your eyes, or not- it is all in focus in my, well, vision or perception if you will...)  The viewfinder is showing you not much more than what you see with your eyes, plus some crop lines- a very different thing than what you see through a camera taking lens.

maybe someone else can help out here- but I will say that for all that, I find the LCD, especially one with the Live View of the E-P1 to be even better to shoot with in that style.

[Guillermo Luijk]

composing on an LCD that gives you a focus preview, like the E-P1, accomplishes the same thing, but by taking the SLR to the next level- by seeing what the sensor is actually going to see, we get the view of the lens as well as the actual depth of field.

I don't understand what you mean here Ted, could you explain what advantage gives the E-P1 Live View over a DLSR viewfinder in terms of 'what the sensor is actually going to see'?

Regards.

[BJL]

I don't understand what you mean here Ted, could you explain what advantage gives the E-P1 Live View over a DLSR viewfinder in terms of 'what the sensor is actually going to see'?

For one thing, at low f-stops, the DOF seen in an SLR optical VF is greater than you actually get, because of the way the OVF secondary image is formed by scattering off the "ground glass". Of course there are other ways in which main sensor live view (LCD or EVF) is more "what you see is what you get" than any optical viewfinder, like avoiding back-focus or front-focus problems, and allowing one to preview the image at full resolution by zooming. A DSLR's OVF image is of far lower resolution than the sensor gives, due again to being a secondary image scattered off the ground glass.

[teddillard]

I don't understand what you mean here Ted, could you explain what advantage gives the E-P1 Live View over a DLSR viewfinder in terms of 'what the sensor is actually going to see'?

Regards.

The E-P1 gives you actual exposure and actual focus preview on the LCD.  

An SLR gives you maximum aperture (thus minimum depth of field), not actual aperture (thus not actual depth of field), or, with the dof preview button pushed, a very dark image (not actual exposure) with the actual aperture and actual dof.  

[Guillermo Luijk]

The E-P1 gives you actual exposure and actual focus preview on the LCD.  

An SLR gives you maximum aperture (thus minimum depth of field), not actual aperture (thus not actual depth of field), or, with the dof preview button pushed, a very dark image (not actual exposure) with the actual aperture and actual dof.

Does this mean the E-P1 always displays according to the aperture set by the user? I think this would be sub-optimum to have a cleaner Live View display under mid or low lighting, in those cases where the displayed DOF is not of interest, right?

BR

[teddillard]

Does this mean the E-P1 always displays according to the aperture set by the user? I think this would be sub-optimum to have a cleaner Live View display under mid or low lighting, in those cases where the displayed DOF is not of interest, right?

BR

not sure what you mean...  the camera displays at the actual exposure- aperture and shutter speed.  if the exposure is correct, it displays as the correct brightness.  if it's underexposed it will display that way- low light or not.

 on my canon g9 it does that too, but you have to push the shutter partway down, can't remember if you have to do that on the E-P1 in LiveView or not...  the g9 will give you your "optimum" view, ie, cleaner LiveView, with the shutter not pushed down.

[Guillermo Luijk]

not sure what you mean...  the camera displays at the actual exposure- aperture and shutter speed.  if the exposure is correct, it displays as the correct brightness.  if it's underexposed it will display that way- low light or not.

Let's say you set f/16 because you want a high DOF. To display what the final image will look like at that aperture, the lens must be stopped to f/16 (i.e. the blades must close the entrance pupil). If so, there will be a very low light level entering the camera, and we all know what happens to Live View displays when in low light conditions: they display very noisy and jerky.

That's why I wondered if the E-P1 can only work with the lenses stopped down to the user setting, or can be released to allow more light entering in low light conditions.

Please note I am all the time talking about the Live View display, not the capture afterwards.

Regards

[teddillard]

Let's say you set f/16 because you want a high DOF. To display what the final image will look like at that aperture, the lens must be stopped to f/16 (i.e. the blades must close the entrance pupil). If so, there will be a very low light level entering the camera, and we all know what happens to Live View displays when in low light conditions: they display very noisy and jerky.

That's why I wondered if the E-P1 can only work with the lenses stopped down to the user setting, or can be released to allow more light entering in low light conditions.

Please note I am all the time talking about the Live View display, not the capture afterwards.

Regards

Got it, OK.  I'm not sure what the controls are, maybe someone who has the camera can chime in- like I said, my G9 runs at full open until you push partway down and then you get the accurate exposure preview, which works great.  The E-P1 LiveView focus preview was something I only got to work with for a few minutes- I'd assume it has a similar function.  

Hold on- found it on Olympus' site:
"AUTOFOCUS LIVE VIEW

The Live View Autofocus system works as effectively and seamlessly on the E-P1 as it does on conventional E-System DSLR and point-and-shoot cameras. Subjects are displayed in complete focus on the bright LCD as soon as the shutter is pressed half way. "

so yeah- full open for normal Live View, stopped down when partly pressed.  probably noisy and jerky too.

[BJL]

As far as I know, the E-P1 aperture operates as with an SLR: wide open during composition except if you activate DOF preview. The differences from an OVF are that
1. wide open, the DOF is always accurate (along with the framing and focus)
2. in DOF preview mode, the image brightness can be boosted, so it may then be a bit noisy, but at least is not so dim as to be useless, which is often the case with SLR DOF preview at high f-stops.

[dkeyes]

Apparently E-P1 has updated firmware to address the slow focusing issues.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10354219-1.html