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Author Topic: Leni Riefenstahl  (Read 11118 times)

Hägar the horrible

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Leni Riefenstahl
« on: July 14, 2009, 09:08:10 AM »

how do you feel about her work and life?
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DarkPenguin

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2009, 09:16:44 AM »

Is she in hell yet?
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Joe Behar

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2009, 09:25:49 AM »

Quote from: Hägar the horrible
how do you feel about her work and life?


How do you feel about anyone that participated in Nazi atrocities?


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Hägar the horrible

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2009, 09:43:47 AM »

I certainly do not defend her life or work and do not feel the slightest sympathy for the Nazi themself or people who sympathise with them.

On the other hand her work has been inspirational to many great photographers and cinematographers (Helmut Newton, Francis Ford Coppola and of course those who would not admit it)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 09:45:31 AM by Hägar the horrible »
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feppe

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2009, 09:48:56 AM »

Quote from: Joe Behar
How do you feel about anyone that participated in Nazi atrocities?

Not surprisingly it took only two replies to get caught by Godwin's Law.

Joe Behar

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2009, 10:18:39 AM »

Quote from: feppe
Not surprisingly it took only two replies to get caught by Godwin's Law.


Are you really suggesting that she was not directly involved?

I would understand if I referred to her as a Nazi collaborator or sympathizer without any solid evidence or strictly as an opinion, but that is not the case here.

The facts are known and have been for a long time now.

In my opinion, regradless of the "talent" "aesthetics" or "artistic value" any work done to further something like a Nazi regime makes a person ineliglble for consideration as acceptable member of civilized society.

I've said my piece and I stand by it.

I will now exit this discussion.

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DarkPenguin

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2009, 10:30:40 AM »

Quote from: feppe
Not surprisingly it took only two replies to get caught by Godwin's Law.

The original post was all it took.
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feppe

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2009, 10:33:26 AM »

Quote from: Joe Behar
Are you really suggesting that she was not directly involved?

How on earth did you get to that (wrong) conclusion from my post? I merely pointed out that this thread was doomed to succumb to trolling and wild tangents from the get-go. I did not comment on Leni Riefenstahl at all.

I'm also done with this discussion.

Rob C

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2009, 10:36:31 AM »

Funny thing is, I have seen pics of her walking hand-in-hand with nude Nubians (male) in copy after copy of old French PHOTO magazines; guess you paints your icon to suit your palette or, at the very least, your agenda. Go figure.

Rob C

Geoff Wittig

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2009, 10:55:20 AM »

Quote from: Hägar the horrible
how do you feel about her work and life?

A brilliant eye and superb visual skills in eager service to the greatest moral atrocity of the modern era?

I feel the same way about Leni Riefenstahl as I do about the psychologists and physicians who assisted the torturers at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Technical or artistic skill used in service to atrocity is...atrocity.
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Hägar the horrible

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 11:03:27 AM »

That is why I think her name shoud rather be discussed than forgotten:

Some time ago I watched a documentary about her life, accompanied by her Olympia Movie 1936 and her movie on the NSDAP Partei Tag 1934. The Olympia movie was a work of huge impact on the film and photography community at that time. It was received as breakthrough and won many prices, people called it among the best 10 films of the time back then.


I think she was more interested in her career than in Nazi politics. Most german artist and cinematographer went to the US at the time and she was warned by them not to stay in the country. Again I do not say this to defend this. But just maybe something can be learned from here. Not only from her work but also from her failures as a human beeing.

Now I wouldnt have posted this question only from looking these 3 films as I am aware that emotions go high for good reason on this one.

However, 40 years ago people landed on the moon. The rocket was constructed more of less by the 100 people which came with SS-Major Wernher von Braun. Compared to his doing during WW 2, Riefenstahl was just a small unimportant number.

Von Braun had become an American citizen a couple of years latter, Riefenstahl is regarded as Nazi and it seems to be difficult to mention her name.

To me this is a very complex "situation", which questions good and bad, responsability and ethics.Is art more dangerous than Rocket and weapon technology?
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DarkPenguin

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2009, 11:14:55 AM »

Quote from: Hägar the horrible
That is why I think her name shoud rather be discussed than forgotten:

Some time ago I watched a documentary about her life, accompanied by her Olympia Movie 1936 and her movie on the NSDAP Partei Tag 1934. The Olympia movie was a work of huge impact on the film and photography community at that time. It was received as breakthrough and won many prices, people called it among the best 10 films of the time back then.


I think she was more interested in her career than in Nazi politics. Most german artist and cinematographer went to the US at the time and she was warned by them not to stay in the country. Again I do not say this to defend this. But just maybe something can be learned from here. Not only from her work but also from her failures as a human beeing.

Now I wouldnt have posted this question only from looking these 3 films as I am aware that emotions go high for good reason on this one.

However, 40 years ago people landed on the moon. The rocket was constructed more of less by the 100 people which came with SS-Major Wernher von Braun. Compared to his doing during WW 2, Riefenstahl was just a small unimportant number.

Von Braun had become an American citizen a couple of years latter, Riefenstahl is regarded as Nazi and it seems to be difficult to mention her name.

To me this is a very complex "situation", which questions good and bad, responsability and ethics.Is art more dangerous than Rocket and weapon technology?

It wasn't art.  It was propaganda.


Quote
And what is it that put America in the forefront of the
nuclear nations? And what is it that will make it
possible to spend 20 billion dollars of your money to
put some clown
on the moon? Well, it was good old
American know-how, that's what. As provided by good old
Americans like Dr. Wernher von Braun.

Gather round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown.
"Ha, Nazi Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.

You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese," says Wernher von Braun.
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Ben Rubinstein

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2009, 11:20:23 AM »

Quote from: feppe
Not surprisingly it took only two replies to get caught by Godwin's Law.

There are people who would say that about any discussion of Hitler or concentration camps. Goodwin's law is an apologists way of trying to wipe out of present consciousness the memory of a part of history, of hell, which many still alive today lived and suffered through. How could it possibly be not relevant to mention the Nazi's when talking about someone who participated and propogagated in their evil?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 11:20:59 AM by pom »
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bill t.

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2009, 12:00:06 PM »

Well, she sure knew how to take pictures.

I started reaching for the nearest large stone, but then I wondered what would I might have done in her situation?

After all, she was just being patriotic, a "virtue" that in my own society is risky to attack.

And didn't we all fail to recognize our own evil during that time...mass bombings of civilians, etc?  Oh, that was OK because it served, um, a goal that was worthy enough to forgive the evil of the immediate acts.  Human morality is a wonderfully pliant sponge.

I can easily condemn the Nazism (as I very quietly do patriotism), but to condemn Riefenstahl I would need to do some serious soul searching, and any resulting condemnation would probably also implicate myself.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 12:05:23 PM by bill t. »
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Chris Sanderson

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Leni Riefenstahl
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2009, 12:29:16 PM »

I am not certain that this discussion can be anything but hurtful - when thoughtful is left behind. If you wish to study Leni Riefenstahl's work, best do it in private and not on a public forum where the discussion is inevitably going to turn inflammatory. Topic Closed.
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Christopher Sanderson
The Luminous-Landscape
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