75mm Large-Format High Resolving Lens

[Anders_HK]

Hi,

Recent I have been using my Leaf Aptus 65 with a custom made digital adapter. It works fine with my Rodenstock 150 / 5.6 Sironar-N and Schneider SA 58 / 5.6, but my Nikkor 75 / 4.5 SW run into problems of diffraction already around f/8-11.

I use my lenses for up to 44x118mm stitches for digital, and with 4x5 film. Thus I need a traditional type large format lens, or non digitar / non digital. Thus please limit replies to specific that!


I thus need replace my Nikkor by a sharper/higher resolving, of following which do you recommend?

A) Schneider Super Angulon f/5.6 MC or not MC

 Rodenstock Grandagon /N f/4.5

C) Other choices

Again, please note that I am not interested in large format digitar/digital lenses.

Much thanks!!!  

[filmcapture]

Why not try a Schneider 72XL?

[mmurph]

Why not try a Schneider 72XL?

Or the 67 XL  . That is a pretty common lens.

I have it on a Cambo Wide, no back to try with.

Cheers!  Good luck.
Michael

[brianc1959]

my Nikkor 75 / 4.5 SW run into problems of diffraction already around f/8-11.

This sounds like a mis-diagnosis of your problem.  What do you actually observe?

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi,

Recent I have been using my Leaf Aptus 65 with a custom made digital adapter. It works fine with my Rodenstock 150 / 5.6 Sironar-N and Schneider SA 58 / 5.6, but my Nikkor 75 / 4.5 SW run into problems of diffraction already around f/8-11.

Is it diffraction or difficulty of focusing the lens accurately? Have you tried with life view shooting tethered to a computer (not sure if your back has this capability)?

I used to own that lens and it was very sharp on 4x5, as sharp as my Schneider 58XL and 110XL at typical 4x5 apertures (f22), although I prefered the way the German lenses painted. The lens can however be difficult to focus accurately on a GG and minor focus errors will show a lot more on a back than on a 4x5 sheet of film.

Have you considered replacing your gound glass itself? This link might help: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/gg.html I have personnally had good results with products from Maxwell Precision Optics.

At that time I had considered standardizing my lens line up on Schneider and the lens Ebony folks were recommending me was the Schneider Super-Symmar XL 80 f4.5. Image circle is 212 mm at f22 if I recall correctly and it is much more compact and light than the 72mm (that has a slighly large image circle though).

This link might help also: http://www.largeformatphotography.info/lenses-wide.html

Cheers,
Bernard

[Anders_HK]

Bernard,

Thanks for advises. Indeed the Nikkor 75 SW is SHARP for my 4x5 slides. Thus I thought it would work for digital also, but seems not. My conclusion is that diffraction is the problem due to the higher resolution of my Aptus 65 compared to film. I do have Maxwell Ultra Brite groundglasses for both my digital adapter and 4x5 GG. Excellent bright! Based on series of test shoots with my Aptus 65 and my three lenses the Nikkor comes out soft compared to the 58 and 150. Also the 58mm is considerably sharper than the 75mm Nikkor and thus this is not due the error of depth of focus on my adapter (depth of focus is more shallow for wider lens). On the 58mm and 150mm diffraction begins very slight at f/16~20 but with the Nikkor at around f/8 or so. Thus the Nikkor does not work well with my DB since around wide open DOF is very shallow in combo with depth of focus and adapter tolerances.

I do prefer to stay with 75mm focal, because I simply like it for both 4x5 and panoramic digital stitch. Thus will prefer not to go 72 or 80mm.

Thanks for the link, looks excellent, will read after work.

Regards
Anders

[Dick Roadnight]

I do prefer to stay with 75mm focal, because I simply like it for both 4x5 and panoramic digital stitch. Thus will prefer not to go 72 or 80mm.

Thanks for the link, looks excellent, will read after work.

Regards
Anders

I would have thought that you need to start off with your required angle of view and res and then work out what lens will give it to you wit how many stitches:

I would have thought that a specialist digital lens would satisfy the requirements.

5* 4 has a diagonal of (25+16)^.5= 162 mm
Angle of view (diagonal) = 2atn(81/75) = 94 degrees

I think that with a high res MFDB you would get a higher res picture with a digital lens, with a smaller file size.

I know you do not want to know, but the Schneider Apo-Digitar 47XL (92 degrees) would seem to fit the requirement.

[mmurph]

I think that with a high res MFDB you would get a higher res picture with a digital lens, with a smaller file size.

I think he was looking for a film and digital lens? The newer digital lenses, while fantastic, do not have the same coverage.

Though it does bring up the thought of sticking with the existing 75 if it is pretty good on film, as mentioned above, and getting a second digital lens? More hassle, but probably the best overall solution.



This is a nice article from Schneider on their digital optics, if you ignore the math. They use a hypothetical 6 micron sensor. I belive yours is 7.2?  Later part is most interesting:

http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/knowhow/digfoto_e.htm


This is also interesting:

http://www.vision-systems.com/display_arti...ses-and-Sensors


And Michael's diversion through large format optics, and his epipheny on the new lenses:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...ital-view.shtml


Cheers! Good luck. Hope I am not just a PITA.  

[Dick Roadnight]

I think he was looking for a film and digital lens? The newer digital lenses, while fantastic, do not have the same coverage.

Though it does bring up the thought of sticking with the existing 75 if it is pretty good on film, as mentioned above, and getting a second digital lens? More hassle, but probably the best overall solution.

They use a hypothetical 6 micron sensor. I belive yours is 7.2?

I did the maths and calculated that the 92 degrees that the Apo-digitar 47XL provides would be adequate.

... but with a 7.2 micron sensor (mine is 5) you would not get the full benefit of the digital lens, and you might need the film lens with the larger image circle.

I have been thinking I would like an apo-digitar 210, and I have a good leica 400 mm, but I was thinking of getting the fine are gold 1100 mm, and stitching and downresing to get the same IQ as with a 550 mm digital lens?

[Anders_HK]

Yes!!! Following is precise correct understanding.

I think he was looking for a film and digital lens? The newer digital lenses, while fantastic, do not have the same coverage.

... and I do not want to carry two sets of lenses.

Per my orginal post above, I seek info on specific following. Which one is highest resolving, considering the diffraction problems I have with Nikkor 75mm 4.5 SW on my Aptus 65, thus... which of following can I expect to be free from diffraction at around f/11.

A) Schneider Super Angulon f/5.6 MC or not MC

B ) Rodenstock Grandagon /N f/4.5

C) Other choices

Again, please note that I am not interested in large format digitar/digital lenses.

Thanks!  

[filmcapture]

I don't think diffraction is a problem but the film lens resolution for your Aptus 65.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials...photography.htm
http://schneider-kreuznach.com/knowhow/digfoto_e.htm

[Anders_HK]

I don't think diffraction is a problem but the film lens resolution for your Aptus 65.

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials...photography.htm

Hm, Cambridge...

under 'Background' "When the diameter of the airy disk's central peak becomes large relative to the pixel size in the camera (or maximum tolerable circle of confusion), it begins to have a visual impact on the image. "

or the image under 'What Looks Like' which one can click to view at different f-stops. That is exactly how I experience the Nikkor 75, going gradual soft at around f/8-11 with my Aptus 65, but sharp using with film.


Regardless of above, I seek a 4x5 lens @ 75mm focal that is more capable to resolve the resolution at f/11 of my Aptus 65 than my Nikkor is. Do I have to buy the latest Schneider or Rodenstock at $$$$, or which one of older will suffice? As stated my Schneider 58mm 5.6 XL and Rodenstock 150mm 5.6 Sironar-N works fine. And no, not problem with error on depth of focus, since my 58 comes out sharper than 75.

I very much appreciate if anyone has specific advise of lens.

Thanks!!!!

Anders

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Anders,

Diffraction is AFAIK only a function of aperture. So if you have problems with diffraction there is no help around. A very well corrected lens may be useful at larger apertures, like 5,6, but it would not give any improvement when stopping down. Sorry this is just physics, depth of field and sharpness don't go hand in hand.

Best regards
Erik

Bernard,

Thanks for advises. Indeed the Nikkor 75 SW is SHARP for my 4x5 slides. Thus I thought it would work for digital also, but seems not. My conclusion is that diffraction is the problem due to the higher resolution of my Aptus 65 compared to film. I do have Maxwell Ultra Brite groundglasses for both my digital adapter and 4x5 GG. Excellent bright! Based on series of test shoots with my Aptus 65 and my three lenses the Nikkor comes out soft compared to the 58 and 150. Also the 58mm is considerably sharper than the 75mm Nikkor and thus this is not due the error of depth of focus on my adapter (depth of focus is more shallow for wider lens). On the 58mm and 150mm diffraction begins very slight at f/16~20 but with the Nikkor at around f/8 or so. Thus the Nikkor does not work well with my DB since around wide open DOF is very shallow in combo with depth of focus and adapter tolerances.

I do prefer to stay with 75mm focal, because I simply like it for both 4x5 and panoramic digital stitch. Thus will prefer not to go 72 or 80mm.

Thanks for the link, looks excellent, will read after work.

Regards
Anders

[Anders_HK]

Hi Anders,

Diffraction is AFAIK only a function of aperture. So if you have problems with diffraction there is no help around. A very well corrected lens may be useful at larger apertures, like 5,6, but it would not give any improvement when stopping down. Sorry this is just physics, depth of field and sharpness don't go hand in hand.

Best regards
Erik

@ Erik Etc,

What I experience is exact as I have described above, and as discussed of 1Ds3 etc in articles like this http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=19459. Never mind if I not use exact words, I have a problem identified and need to replace my Nikkor 75 due to that problem.

What is my specific interest (as in repeat posted above), and what I have asked help for is recommendation for which lens to replace my Nikkor 75 with, thus that performs well for me at around f/11. Please keep remainder of this thread on that specific track and subject.

Much thanks for understanding.

Anders

[Anders_HK]

Grandagon-N or a newer Super Angulon are higher resolution than the Nikkor.  I tested these years ago on film, and my notes are that the difference was noticeable with a loupe, but not on a 4x enlarged print (16x20)  I ended up with a 72XL SA, mostly because I found one used, and I could use the huge image circle.  I haven't used any of these on digital.

It sounds like you're not interested, but the Super Symar XL 80 is even better than the above. (and lighter, smaller and more expensive)

Alan,

Thanks! Perfect info.

By chance did you also try the Super Angulon 75 / 5.6 MC that was predecessor to the 72?

Do you refer to the newer Grandagon-N with green line around lens barrel, or is the older same high resolution?

Again much thanks!!!  

Anders

[Anders_HK]

Email reply from Schneider-Kreuznach

Me - "... what are the actual differences on following Schneider lenses in regards to my use. I am seeking a lens that has a suffice high resolving power and much better such than my Nikkor 75 SW 4.5.
- Schneider 75mm Super-Angulon 5.6, e.g.?http://www.kenrockwell.com/schneider/75superangulon.htm
- Schneider 75mm Super-Angulon MC 5.6
- Schneider 75mm Super-Angulon XL 5.6"

S-K - "The only lens we would like to recommend is our Super-Angulon XL 5,6/72mm which is an superb wide-angle lens with excellent resolution."

Me - "1. What was optically improved with the 72 XL compared to its predecessor 75mm SA 5.6?
 2. Do you have info on how the 72 XL compares to the optical quality of the Rodenstock 75 Grandagon-N (green stripe) 4.5?"

S-K - "the 72mm lens is a complete new design and calculation and in comparison to the older calculations of Schneider 75mm lens as also Rodenstock 75mm lens the resolution is higher and the color separation in the width is much smaller."

Me - "How is the 72 compare to your 80 XL?"

S-K - "it’s a different design.
The XL aspheric design was made for field photographers and gives the quality of a standard taking lens and coverage of a wide angle lens, but both moderate.
If you are going for a wide angle lens with best performance and best resolution with minimum distortion you should use the 72mm lens.
If you are looking for general purpose the 80mm is more convenient for you."


Perhaps the 72 is my only choice??    

[filmcapture]

Perhaps the 72 is my only choice??    

Once again, I strongly suggest you try a 72XL. I have both 72XL and 80XL, and there's no double 72XL has better resolution though 80XL is much smaller and lighter. I recall Andre Oldani with Alpa wrote about 80XL on Pro Photo Home: "But beware: The Super-Symmar 4.5/80 XL is not usable for digital in our eyes, e.g."

[Christopher]

Once again, I strongly suggest you try a 72XL. I have both 72XL and 80XL, and there's no double 72XL has better resolution though 80XL is much smaller and lighter. I recall Andre Oldani with Alpa wrote about 80XL on Pro Photo Home: "But beware: The Super-Symmar 4.5/80 XL is not usable for digital in our eyes, e.g."

That is the reason Schneider-Kreuznach has their Digitar Series.

[Anders_HK]

Once again, I strongly suggest you try a 72XL. I have both 72XL and 80XL, and there's no double 72XL has better resolution though 80XL is much smaller and lighter. I recall Andre Oldani with Alpa wrote about 80XL on Pro Photo Home: "But beware: The Super-Symmar 4.5/80 XL is not usable for digital in our eyes, e.g."

Hi, Yes it seems the best choice. I have one in shipment to me.

Thanks!!!  
Anders