Astro photography with MFDB?

[evgeny]

I owned in the past an 80ED f/6.3 refractor and 200mm f/4 reflector, but was never able to acquire a beautiful astro image with my "visual-only" RA motor on a cheap mount and a Nikon attached via photo adapter to the telescope finder.

I understand that specialized SBIG devices are light sensitive in selected wave-lengths, but may be I can use a MFDB?

So, if anyone here used a MFDB for astro imaging, please post which equipment (mount, telescope/guider/telephoto lens, software, computer, etc) and the technique used to obtain beautiful astro images.

Thanks!

[Rob C]

Sorry, I need new glasses for monitor reading: I though the title was Astro pornography with MFDB; figured somebody had actually found a new use for it!

Rob C

[Cartman]

The top astro ccd cameras (Kodak sensors), are actively cooled to minimize noise on long exposures.  Usually you'll have to look at the upper end, and upper $$$ range, to get optics on the optical tube assembly worthy of your MF sensor and the required image circle.  Moreover, a ultra accurate German equatorial mount (GEM) is essential (such as from Software Bisque or Astro Physics).  Finally, to help any CCD or CMOS images of nebulae or deep space taken with a terrestrial oriented camera would benefit by having the camera modified by having the low pass long wavelength filter replaced (see Hutech) to increase sensitivity in the hydrogen alpha wavelength.  If you had a last gen DSLR lying around you may want to have it modified.  You'll probably get the most bang for the buck by starting with a good GEM.  The hobby is definitely not for the faint of wallet.

[Doug Peterson]

The top astro ccd cameras (Kodak sensors), are actively cooled to minimize noise on long exposures.  Usually you'll have to look at the upper end, and upper $$$ range, to get optics on the optical tube assembly worthy of your MF sensor and the required image circle.  Moreover, a ultra accurate German equatorial mount (GEM) is essential (such as from Software Bisque or Astro Physics).  Finally, to help any CCD or CMOS images of nebulae or deep space taken with a terrestrial oriented camera would benefit by having the camera modified by having the low pass long wavelength filter replaced (see Hutech) to increase sensitivity in the hydrogen alpha wavelength.  If you had a last gen DSLR lying around you may want to have it modified.  You'll probably get the most bang for the buck by starting with a good GEM.  The hobby is definitely not for the faint of wallet.

Just a quick note that the Phase One P45+ back can handle long exposures better than any other digital back and can be ordered without the IR-block filter (without voiding the warranty) so that the system is sensitive to a wider range of the light spectrum.

If you email me (doug@captureintegration.com) I have a spectral response chart illustrating the range of the light spectrum a P+ back is sensitive to.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Dick Roadnight]

The top astro ccd cameras (Kodak sensors), are actively cooled to minimize noise on long exposures.  Usually you'll have to look at the upper end, and upper $$$ range, to get optics on the optical tube assembly worthy of your MF sensor and the required image circle.  Moreover, a ultra accurate German equatorial mount (GEM) is essential (such as from Software Bisque or Astro Physics).  Finally, to help any CCD or CMOS images of nebulae or deep space taken with a terrestrial oriented camera would benefit by having the camera modified by having the low pass long wavelength filter replaced (see Hutech) to increase sensitivity in the hydrogen alpha wavelength.  If you had a last gen DSLR lying around you may want to have it modified.  You'll probably get the most bang for the buck by starting with a good GEM.  The hobby is definitely not for the faint of wallet.

What angle of view is ideal/acceptable?
I have a 900 mm with a front element about 6", and a 50mpx ccd - would that be useful?
...trouble is the CCD does not work at hight ISO.

[Cartman]

Just a quick note that the Phase One P45+ back can handle long exposures better than any other digital back and can be ordered without the IR-block filter (without voiding the warranty) so that the system is sensitive to a wider range of the light spectrum.

If you email me (doug@captureintegration.com) I have a spectral response chart illustrating the range of the light spectrum a P+ back is sensitive to.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
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Thanks for the info Doug, I had no idea.

[Cartman]

What angle of view is ideal/acceptable?
I have a 900 mm with a front element about 6", and a 50mpx ccd - would that be useful?
...trouble is the CCD does not work at hight ISO.

Dick, I wouldn't worry too much about the ISO.  What I would focus on is a stable tracking mount and a guide sensor to help the mount track.  If you can't expose for an hour, expose for ten minutes -- repeatedly -- and add the exposures together.  Or even one minute.  The best astro images have exposures of ten hours or more for each RBG&L.  Check out this guy:  http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/  http://www.robgendlerastropics.com/M42HeartNMCropS.html

No matter what kind of camera you have, you'll probably never be happy without a good GEM mount.

Regarding your optical tube assembly, what do you want to shoot -- nebulae, star clusters, galaxies, planets?  I would contact your scope maker and ask them about the image circle.  If you have a 2" focuser you probably aren't going to be as happy as you would with a Takahashi and a 4" focuser when trying to use a MF size sensor.

A great technical book to get you started understanding what you're up against might be "Introduction to Digital Astrophotography" by Robert Reeves (Willmann-Bell pub.).  A good how-to starter might be "The New CCD Astronomy" by Ron Wodasky (New Astronomy Press).  And here's some free, no need to wait, info to get you started:  http://www.astropix.com/HTML/I_ASTROP/TOC_AP.HTM

The last bit of advice I can give you is to buy once, cry once.  Few are happy for long with the stuff from Meade and Celestron et al.  Of course, if that is all your budget allows, then there you are.

And did I mention you're never going to be happy without a good mount?  Losmandy would probably be considered the bottom end if your gear was very light.  Then maybe a Mountain Instruments MI-250 for the mid-range, with the Software Bisque Paramount ME and Astro-Physics 1200GTO at the high end.  Most of the good stuff has a waiting list.

There are yahoo user groups for most aspects of the hobby as well, including one for DSLR astrophotography.

Oh yeah, if I didn't make this clear, I would probably buy a new mount before I bought a new camera or telescope!

[Murray Fredericks]

My take on this is that no MFDB currently available at the consumer level is appropriate for the job.

Even a 1 hour exposure is peanuts in this field. High ISO work and long exposures are not the forte of any MFDB make. ISO makes all the difference in this world!

If you are interested in timelapse astro photography done with DSLR'S very effectively then take a look at the brilliant timescapes forum which deals specifically with this subject.

 http://www.timescapes.org

Murray

[DesW]

Hi,

Note the comments re a proper mount

We use the LOSMANDY 492 Digital Drive System Tripod with the Model GM 8 head.

BIG heavy mother but it works!

Good Luck,

DesW

[Cartman]

My take on this is that no MFDB currently available at the consumer level is appropriate for the job.

Murray

Well Murray, ideally you'll have a CCD sensor with a high quantum efficiency for the wavelengths you are trying to image, along with active Peltier cooling and fans and/or heatsinks, or water cooling, and yes these are certainly specialized instruments and sensors not likely to be found on a MFDB.  But the question seemed to be what could be done with what he has -- a MFDB.  So we're left quibbling over what "appropriate" means -- LOL!  

I suppose if you're going to fork over for a high-end OTA and mount, you'll probably end up springing for a good camera/sensor combo from SBIG, FLI, or Apogee as well.

I guess it boils down to how far are you willing to go and how much are you willing to spend to achieve truly stunning images.

Those who are thinking about getting into the hobby should also understand that it is really a "hobbyist" endeavour where you really need to learn and understand what your doing and figure many things out for yourself or with the help of others even on the technical side of things.  It is rarely a plug-and-play operation like most of us are used to with camera gear.

[Murray Fredericks]

So we're left quibbling over what "appropriate" means -- LOL!

Yes,

I agree- what is appropriate?

I think someone operating at any level up to the arena where purpose built sensors are required will most likely be far more pleased with results from a top level Nikon or Canon than any MFDB currently on the market.

Murray

[Doug Peterson]

I think someone operating at any level up to the arena where purpose built sensors are required will most likely be far more pleased with results from a top level Nikon or Canon than any MFDB currently on the market.

As I'm sure you'd agree that would depend a lot on the specific uses of the gear. Even the seemingly niche area of "astro photography" contains many specific types of applications.

Assuming that telescope based nebula photography is not going to be the sole area of exploration than specifically-dedicated solutions are not great. The digital back would allow the use on tech cameras, view cameras, fully manual mechanical bodies (allows for some options not available on SLRs), multiple-exposures (true, not fake post-processing stacks), and other wide ranging options that the one-size-fits-all SLRs would not.

In cool weather the Phase 45+ can exposure for 2 hours, and in really cold weather (desert nights) they can exposure all night. The 1-hour guideline is for around room temperature. (chart) If you needed to push this class-leading spec you could always put ice bags around the system.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[evgeny]

Thanks.

I understand the importance of GEM, but don't want to throw out $9K on Losmandy.

1. Can I use the Orion Atlas 190 EQ-G with Maksutov-Newtonian 190mm f/5.3 for astro imaging?
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~...roduct_id=24779

2. Can I actually do astro imaging on balcony in the city with the addition of Lumicon Deep Sky filter for light-polluted skies or similar filters?  

I think about:
Maksutov-Newtonian 190mm f/5.3 Telescope
Orion Atlas 190 EQ-G GoTo
Orion StarShoot Pro V2.0 Deep Space Color CCD
Shoestring USB Guide Port Interface
GPS Receiver for Orion GoTo Telescope Mounts

Edit: or may be Takahashi Sky-90II Complete System w/EM-200 Temma-2 GOTO Mount?

[Cartman]

Thanks.

I understand the importance of GEM, but don't want to throw out $9K on Losmandy.

1. Can I use the Orion Atlas 190 EQ-G with Maksutov-Newtonian 190mm f/5.3 for astro imaging?
http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~...roduct_id=24779

2. Can I actually do astro imaging on balcony in the city with the addition of Lumicon Deep Sky filter for light-polluted skies or similar filters?  

I think about:
Maksutov-Newtonian 190mm f/5.3 Telescope
Orion Atlas 190 EQ-G GoTo
Orion StarShoot Pro V2.0 Deep Space Color CCD
Shoestring USB Guide Port Interface
GPS Receiver for Orion GoTo Telescope Mounts

Edit: or may be Takahashi Sky-90II Complete System w/EM-200 Temma-2 GOTO Mount?

As for question 1., I was ready to agree with Murray but perhaps a better answer is that we're both wrong.  I think you'll be best off with a point and shoot digital camera with that system.

As for 2., I've not tried the Lumicon Deep Sky filter so I don't know.  My guess is you could shoot with it and your friends and family may ooh and ahh, but if you're looking for top notch astrophotos I think you'll be disappointed.  Here is a false colour image: http://www.rc-astro.com/photo/id1188.html

I'm sure Russell Crowman uses narrowband filters that allow just the narrow wavelengths of OIII, SII, H-a etc. to create his false colour images.  You could use filters like this in light polluted skies to pretty good effect.   http://www.astrodon.com/products/filters/narrowband/

The level of gear you're looking at isn't going to be able to handle a lot of weight.  It isn't going to track very well so images are going to be smeared, stacks look poor, etc.  Those OTA's are going to give you oblong stars.  The Tak Sky-90II would give you nice wide field images, however.  Not sure about the Temma-2 for imaging.  Great for observing.

Plus, how are you going to mount a MF back to a system?  People have custom adapters built all the time.  But you'll need to read up on concepts like "back focus", "full width at half maximum", "electron well capacity", "blooming", "dark frames", "seeing", just to name a few, before you even begin to consider buying equipment or you're bound to regret it.  What do you want to shoot?  What field of view will you want and how will the size of the sensor influence that?  Will your optics be up to snuff, etc.?  Moreover, smaller pixels generally are less sensitive to light and have a smaller well capacity.  

And I made a mistake in a post above.  The technical book I meant to recommend is "The Handbook of Astronomical Image Processing" by Berry and Burnell (Willmann-Bell publ.).  Very informative.  The Reeves book will help you get started with a lower-budget set up, however.

I would buy some of these books and check them out.  And get a good idea of what you want to accomplish and what you'll be satisfied with.  Join the DSLR yahoo group and others and see what people are able to image with equipment that you're considering and is within your budget.

And did I mention your mount will probably have the most effect on your images and will likely give you the biggest bang for your buck?  With a good mount you can just mount your MF or DSLR with your best lens and take great wide field images.  With a great OTA and camera, but crappy mount, you're likely to be let down with the results.  A Losmandy is probably the base entry level mount and is far less than $9,000.  Still, I would spring for more, get a better mount (try astromart for used deals) and enjoy my current camera and lenses, along with some narrowband filters if you don't have access to a dark site.  My next step would probably be to have the IR filter changed out on an old DSLR or get the Orion StarShoot Pro Deep Space Camera http://www.telescope.com/control/product/~...roduct_id=52084 which strikes me as a bargain (though you'll want to verify what kind of images people are getting out of it).  I don't know if it is possible to approach the best images without spending a fortune.  Unfortunately.

I have an AP 900GTO, AP 1200GTO, Paramount ME (about to be delivered), Takahashi TOA-150, and will likely be getting a PlaneWave Instruments CDK scope in the near future.

Here is the Tak and 1200GTO next to my 5'8" wife to give you some perspective.



I hope this has been helpful.

[Neil Folberg]

Hello,

I have used medium format film for many years with a rollei for astro work, but now have finally switched to digital imaging for astro photos, mostly because of it's enhanced sensitivity to wavelengths to which current films are not sensitive. No mfdb is designed to be sensitive to those wavelengths and none have cooled sensors and exposures must of necessity be long and noise free. I would not attempt astro work with the phase or any one of it's competitors.

If you must have a large format digital sensor, look at the Apogee Alta series or SBIG's high end offerings. The Apogee is built well, cools the sensor down to minus 20 centigrade and you can fit any lens you like to it by means of custom made adapters - I am using a Borg telescope and Rollei lenses, too. These are expensive outfits but not as much as medium format backs.

Alternatively, people are doing wonders with canon and nikon dslr's from which the filters have been removed. These are not cooled, but there are good software solutions available that do, however, necessitate very long acquisition times to achieve good results (good signal to noise ratios).

The cheapest alternative might be the orion camera that you mentioned which I have never used but was very favorably reviewed in sky & telescope magazine sometime in the last year, I think.

A good mount is not as glamorous, but is essential especially for high end work such as you might do with the larger cooled ccd astro cameras. I used the Losmandy G11 for years and it worked but was fussy and required constant balancing and fiddling; I have since switched to an Astrophysics mach 1 that is a joy to use - almost plug and play.

The skills you need for this are sometimes formidable.

For a pleasant pastime, you might just want something like a good basic computerized mount with telescope, such as one of the Meades or Celestrons along with one of the smaller, cheaper astro cameras such as the Meade, Celestron or Orion.

If you want to see what i did with my medium format Rollei (film) piggybacked on a Meade 8" LX50 telescope and mount, look up my book Celestial Nights  current edition Abbeville Presspublisher Website)

Neil Folberg
www.visongallery.com

[Rob C]

Have you tried using a water filter, Neill?

Rob C

[evgeny]

Thanks!
I start think about AP900 with Mak-New 190/5.3 to begin on balcony.
I want to put the AP900 mount on a pier, cannot decide which height, can you advise? I'm 5.73' told.

A perfect setup would be the AP900 with GPS connected to a Macbook Pro, with guider view on the computer screen, and commands sent to AP900 from the computer. What else may I need?

Sorry if this became out of topic.

[Neil Folberg]

Hi Rob,

What, please, is a water filter?? In any case, my question answers yours: no I haven't.

Neil

Have you tried using a water filter, Neill?

Rob C

[Neil Folberg]

Evgeny,

If you can't decide what height - or you want to be able to adjust it - consider the Pier Tech. I have one and it is wonderful to use - see http://www.pier-tech.com/pier-tech2_telescope_pier.htm

The AP mounts are spectacular -- there is a long wait list usually to order. I was very lucky to get the mach 1 quickly.

What else do you need? A lot of patience - this kind of work is demanding - and a good place to work/view. If you don't have any experience, get some before you buy all this stuff - find someone to show you and teach you.

Best wishes,

Neil

Thanks!
I start think about AP900 with Mak-New 190/5.3 to begin on balcony.
I want to put the AP900 mount on a pier, cannot decide which height, can you advise? I'm 5.73' told.

A perfect setup would be the AP900 with GPS connected to a Macbook Pro, guider view on the computer screen, commands sent to AP900 from the computer. What else may I need?

Sorry if this is an out of topic.