Canon 5D Mark II auto modes too slow

[bgos]

Hi,
I don't know whether this has been discussed before, but I find that my Canon 5DII chooses shutter speeds that are too low for hand held shots, especially for a high resolution sensor.
For example, when I shoot with a 50mm 1.4 lens in P mode, the camera will go down to a shutter speed of 1/40th and and aperture value of 2.8 rather than choosing a speed of 1/80th at f2.
My old 5D and my 1Ds Mark III will both choose a faster combination.
In Auto ISO mode, the same thing happens, let's say I use it together with Av (Aperture Priority) mode, and let's say I chose f 5.6, then the camera will chose 1/40th or 1/50th for the shutter speed rather than choosing a higher ISO and a faster speed.
That to me makes these auto modes totally useless. I normally like to use auto modes, when I have to react fast and don't want to pay attention to the exposure. Auto modes can be especially helpful when one has to deal with quickly changing light conditions (indoor - outdoor, differently lighted rooms) and one can't pay too much attention to the exposure. All the electronic cameras I previously owned, starting with my Minolta x700 35 years ago, would chose faster shutter speeds over smaller apertures. But with the 5DII I get blurry shots, when I could have gotten a perfect shot at f2 or 1,4 or at ISO 400.
This seems to be a real flaw in the camera software, and I think it could probably be corrected in a firmware update, if enough people would demand it.
Unless of cause, it's just my camera that is faulty and other people's cameras don't have the same aperture/exposure/ISO combination curve.
I would like to hear from other users what experience they have made regarding this issue.

Bert

[DaveLon]

Hi,
I don't know whether this has been discussed before, but I find that my Canon 5DII chooses shutter speeds that are too low for hand held shots, especially for a high resolution sensor.
For example, when I shoot with a 50mm 1.4 lens in P mode, the camera will go down to a shutter speed of 1/40th and and aperture value of 2.8 rather than choosing a speed of 1/80th at f2.
My old 5D and my 1Ds Mark III will both choose a faster combination.
In Auto ISO mode, the same thing happens, let's say I use it together with Av (Aperture Priority) mode, and let's say I chose f 5.6, then the camera will chose 1/40th or 1/50th for the shutter speed rather than choosing a higher ISO and a faster speed.
That to me makes these auto modes totally useless. I normally like to use auto modes, when I have to react fast and don't want to pay attention to the exposure. Auto modes can be especially helpful when one has to deal with quickly changing light conditions (indoor - outdoor, differently lighted rooms) and one can't pay too much attention to the exposure. All the electronic cameras I previously owned, starting with my Minolta x700 35 years ago, would chose faster shutter speeds over smaller apertures. But with the 5DII I get blurry shots, when I could have gotten a perfect shot at f2 or 1,4 or at ISO 400.
This seems to be a real flaw in the camera software, and I think it could probably be corrected in a firmware update, if enough people would demand it.
Unless of cause, it's just my camera that is faulty and other people's cameras don't have the same aperture/exposure/ISO combination curve.
I would like to hear from other users what experience they have made regarding this issue.

Bert

Why not use A mode and set the f stop to what you want rather than an automatic mode? Or Set the shutter speed and let the camera set the f set?

Dave S

[Chris Pollock]

I always use Av, manual, or very occasionally Tv, so personally I don't care what the automatic mode does. From what you've told us it sounds like the implementation is fundamentally flawed, and you should stick to Av or Tv.

As many people have already pointed out (on the DP Review forums for example), Canon's implementation of auto ISO is useless, which is a pity since it would have been extremely useful if done right, and doing it right would have been no harder than what they did.

In Av mode, Canon decided that auto-ISO should try to keep the shutter speed roughly equal to 1 / focal length. This is at best marginally adequate to avoid camera shake while hand-holding, if you have unusually steady hands. It is utterly inadequate to freeze a moving subject, unless you happen to be using a very long lens. Since auto-ISO would typically be used to shoot moving subjects (sports, children, wildlife, etc.), Canon's implementation is useless. It would have been easy to allow the user to choose minumum and maximum shutter speeds, but for some reason Canon chose not to do so.

Another very useful improvement would be to allow auto-ISO to be used in manual mode. You could then set the aperture and shutter speed of your choice, and let the camera vary the ISO to get the right exposure. It would be necessary to allow the camera to vary the shutter speed or aperture if the light became too bright for the lowest ISO, or too dim for the highest ISO, so perhaps calling this mode TAv would be better, as others have suggested.

I can only assume that either the person who designed the 5D II's auto-ISO implementation knows little about photography, or chose to deliberately cripple it to avoid competing with their higher end cameras.

[Jack Varney]

I can remember when I sometimes could shoot a Rollieflex at 1/15 sec. and make an 8X10. Now, at 70 years and on a tripod (the camera that is) I need a 1/125!  

So, I always shoot shutter priority mode when hand held. Sounds safe doesen't it? Well, one of my favorite shots in Holland this year had movement at 1/320! I do not suffer from Parkinsons either. What is an old man to do?  

[bgos]

You are not really addressing the problem. Of course I do use all modes depending on the shooting situation - although I rarely use shutter priority and now I have to do it more often. Program mode, for me, is useful in some situations where I am too concentrated on what's happening in front of the camera and don't want to pay attention to the exposure. For these occasions program mode always was  a fail-save method to get the shot if it was possible to get it at all, because program modes are normally biased towards a faster shutter speed. If you guys don't ever find it useful to use program mode, you probably shouldn't be responding to this thread.

I think this issue of too slow shutter speeds in Program Mode and Auto ISO mode should be addressed by Canon in a firmware update, because as they are implemented now they clearly don't work.

Bert

[Chris Pollock]

I think this issue of too slow shutter speeds in Program Mode and Auto ISO mode should be addressed by Canon in a firmware update, because as they are implemented now they clearly don't work.

Yes, I agree with you. I have a nasty feeling that Canon aren't going to do anything about it though, and there's nothing you or I can do to change that. Since you've clearly established that P mode doesn't work, the only sensible course of action is to stop using it, or switch to another brand of camera.

I brought up the auto ISO issue because I think it's a symptom of the same problem - Canon entrusting important design decisions to someone who obviously isn't competent.

I am aware that a minimum shutter speed of 1 / focal length is an old rule of thumb to avoid camera shake when hand-holding, and it is probably OK if you're shooting static subjects, have steady hands, and don't make big prints. If you want to reliably get 21 megapixels of detail it's just not fast enough. It seems perverse that Canon gave the 5D II a 21 megapixel sensor, but designed the auto modes in such a way as to prevent the camera from reliably achieving 21 megapixels of resoultion.

It's not like Japan has a shortage of photographers. Maybe Canon should talk to some of them?

[aaykay]

Do you have any additional eV compensation set in the camera that was not set in your prior 5D and 1DS ?  That will slow things down a bit.  

[Craig Arnold]

Hi,
I don't know whether this has been discussed before, but I find that my Canon 5DII chooses shutter speeds that are too low for hand held shots, especially for a high resolution sensor.
Bert

Bert I am finding exactly the same thing!!

I mostly shoot with a 50 1.2 and I am suddenly getting more soft shots (when viewed at 100% anyway). I like the idea of Auto-ISO and often shoot in P mode but find that the camera is choosing 1/40s a lot which is simply too low for the 5D2.

I love the 50L, and thought that I had started struggling with the focus shift again after apparently sorting it with my 5D. But I realise that I'm not missing the focus I'm getting camera shake using modes where I never had it before.

I can only speculate that the 5D2 (including its auto-ISO mode) is thoroughly optimised for a single lens - the 24-105L. And I have to say that the combo is really stunning. The 1/focal length rule is actually slightly conservative with the excellent IS on the 24-105.

And with the extra low-light performance I'm finding that the 24-105 is starting to tempt me away from the 50. 2 extra stops at the high ISO end means that the 24-105 is now very usable in very dark conditions at f4. And it's very sharp at 35 and 50mm wide open. But I take worse pictures when I use a zoom because I generally can't resist the temptation to compose by zooming and I like the small/light/compact nature of a fixed focal length lens.

I have decided that if I'm going to continue to use the 50 I'm going to have to stop using auto-ISO, Av and P modes. T mode is all wrong for anything but sports anyway. So it looks like it will have to be M mode for the 50!! Perhaps it's Canon's way of telling us to take back control.

[Chris Pollock]

The 1/focal length rule is actually slightly conservative with the excellent IS on the 24-105.

Maybe so, if your subject isn't moving. You won't get many sharp pictures of my children with a 1/100 second exposure. If you're shooting static scenes you probably won't need auto ISO or P mode anyway - you'll have plenty of time to choose your parameters.

I have decided that if I'm going to continue to use the 50 I'm going to have to stop using auto-ISO, Av and P modes. T mode is all wrong for anything but sports anyway. So it looks like it will have to be M mode for the 50!! Perhaps it's Canon's way of telling us to take back control.

Why don't you just use Av mode, and set the ISO manually? On the other hand, Canon's metering isn't always accurate, so I often find myself using manual mode. As long as the light stays constant it's easy to use - a few test shots are enough to get the right exposure.