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mcfoto

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« on: July 01, 2009, 09:01:04 pm »

http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_displ...18de53e10237f76

I have been in the industry a long time & magazines come & go. This time there is a shift to web/motion. I should not say too much about motion but @ the PMA show in Sydney I saw a 5 min trailer about a boxing movie shot in Australia. The trailer was shot on the 5DMKII & it was amazing. Canon is not only selling to the stills photographers but motion ones to, this shift is happening & art directors know what a RED camera is. It is no wonder that the Hy6 has become a still born. The Leica S2 I just don't get at that price point you can buy a Red camera. I think the next people that Phase should talk to is RED to co develop a new ZD camera with a 4'' screen with HDV, sort of a bigger 5DMKII.
Denis
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TMARK

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« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2009, 11:57:06 am »

Quote from: mcfoto
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_displ...18de53e10237f76

I have been in the industry a long time & magazines come & go. This time there is a shift to web/motion. I should not say too much about motion but @ the PMA show in Sydney I saw a 5 min trailer about a boxing movie shot in Australia. The trailer was shot on the 5DMKII & it was amazing. Canon is not only selling to the stills photographers but motion ones to, this shift is happening & art directors know what a RED camera is. It is no wonder that the Hy6 has become a still born. The Leica S2 I just don't get at that price point you can buy a Red camera. I think the next people that Phase should talk to is RED to co develop a new ZD camera with a 4'' screen with HDV, sort of a bigger 5DMKII.
Denis

So I guess I'll never see the several grand they owe me from 2005 and 2006.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Phase developing an HDV system with Red would be a good idea for Phase, but where is Red's incentive?  Distribution channel?  They sell direct, and sell EVERY SINGLE camera they produce.  They know the middle man is unnecessary.  User base?  Most MFDB guys I know can't fathom motion, are having a hard time thinking in that dimension when concepting an idea.  Not all, of course, but to think that Phase's meager user base (meager compared to DSLR or even RED) would jump to a motion camera is doubtful.  Why else would they need Phase?  RAW processing? Out of camera Red Raw has great color and skin tones, great contrast.  Great DR.  I suspect it will get better with Epic and Scarlet.  They don't need a camera from Mamiya, so I don't see the benefit for Red in such a merger.  Besides, Scarlet might be the Red ZD. Just my opinion and I would like to hear your thoughts M&C, as I do believe that you and yours have your collective head screwed on straight, meaning your opinion is trusted.

Thanks!
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gwhitf

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« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2009, 01:51:56 pm »

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TMARK

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« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2009, 03:04:53 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
http://tinyurl.com/n7a7eh

Yes indeed.   The future is here, in fact, the future has been here.  Those IC guys are sharp, at the sharp end of the spear with motion/stills convergence.  

Only a matter of time before the forum police ask that this post be pulled.
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Snook

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« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2009, 03:50:38 pm »

Everyday I get more and more clients wanting to shoot for their web division part rather than print.
which means all those megapixels are not needed anymore...:+{

Snook
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DesW

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« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2009, 05:50:51 pm »


Hmmmm-- We have seen a prototype RED -cannot say anymore at this stage but it will blow all away.

Phase and RED-- yes bedfellows on the Backs/+ Technology/etc-- great all for it-- as long as it is not encompassing that loathsome "Phamiya'"

body!

Incidently one of ours arrived back from MAC group today after service(Again)--but a UPS truck drove over the box!!

Sheeeesh!

DesW

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mcfoto

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« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2009, 10:17:45 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
So I guess I'll never see the several grand they owe me from 2005 and 2006.  Good riddance to bad rubbish.

Phase developing an HDV system with Red would be a good idea for Phase, but where is Red's incentive?  Distribution channel?  They sell direct, and sell EVERY SINGLE camera they produce.  They know the middle man is unnecessary.  User base?  Most MFDB guys I know can't fathom motion, are having a hard time thinking in that dimension when concepting an idea.  Not all, of course, but to think that Phase's meager user base (meager compared to DSLR or even RED) would jump to a motion camera is doubtful.  Why else would they need Phase?  RAW processing? Out of camera Red Raw has great color and skin tones, great contrast.  Great DR.  I suspect it will get better with Epic and Scarlet.  They don't need a camera from Mamiya, so I don't see the benefit for Red in such a merger.  Besides, Scarlet might be the Red ZD. Just my opinion and I would like to hear your thoughts M&C, as I do believe that you and yours have your collective head screwed on straight, meaning your opinion is trusted.

Thanks!

Hi
Thanks! As for Phase One they should look at what Red is doing also look at the success of the 5DMKII. If Phase could come out with the ZD camera with video at a good price it would be interesting. Also the fact that the coming 645 Red camera (EPIC 645 Monstro 9K, 50fps
Medium format mount
Mamiya)  uses the Mamiya 645 lens & when you think about the stills coming off that camera they should be impressive.
 
This quote is from the RED web site Q&A (Quote)
It is a question that we have heard more than we could ever have imagined. It's funny, because it makes us realize that we don't think conventionally. The whole philosophy of RED is to stay at the very cutting edge of technology and the only way to do that is to stay ahead of it. We are developing technology now for applications that haven't even been thought of yet. We have been in conversation with like-minded forward thinkers that are already developing plans for our cameras, in configurations and scenarios that will boggle the mind. Digital medium format, 65 megapixel, at 50 frames per second. Do you think the cover of Sports Illustrated will ever be the same? Digital Stereo IMAX....... in slow motion. If you can't imagine it, you will be very entertained by it.
End (Quote)
Denis
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 10:50:45 pm by mcfoto »
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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2009, 11:32:49 pm »

Someone told me that the RED cam is a 10BIT, is that true? or thats just bad info, or an older model perhaps?

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gwhitf

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« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2009, 08:27:28 am »

I think, long-term, this whole Red thing could get interesting. Think 3-5 years. But there seems to be a huge laundry list of unanswered questions about shooting Stills with this thing. Do you really want to drag around a kart with two G5 towers on it? And what is the final word about shooting strobe? And what about the money/budget for this thing plus a required Tech or two, in this economy? And do you want to shoot everything on a huge tripod? And what if you simply needed to stop moving objects/people; are you going to do that while shooting, in effect, at 1/30th of a second, using HMI's? Lots of hype, lots of unanswered questions.

Lots of things converging and moving around in this economy right now -- the buzz about the 5D2; and now this Red; and MFDB's still preoccupied with megapixels instead of true mobile untethered usability. All this buzz about technology, while clients squeeze the budgets til there's little room for anything except ramen noodles. It just makes you wonder who's going to be left standing, once all this has shaken out. My money is on a camera that's affordable, with a few great lenses, and easy, quick workflow. My money, longterm, is with 35 over MF, in terms of who's actually going to survive in any healthy condition. Everything seems to be heading toward portability, price, ease of use, and tiny size.

Yes, I get requests for internet usage too, but enough to actually switch cameras?

For MF industry in general, I'd remind them to think of that old saying, "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer". They seem intent on continuing to do battle within their own ranks, thus splitting the tiny pie into tiny cupcakes, cluelessly thinking that other MF companies are the true enemy, while the holes in the boat continue to spout water. Every day now introduces New Doubt into the MF industry, at a time when it's least needed.

Signed,

Mr. Dinosaur
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 09:19:20 am by gwhitf »
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charleski

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« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2009, 10:03:49 am »

Quote from: mcfoto
[quoting from a RED promo that sounds like the writer was on a mix of speed and acid]
Do you think the cover of Sports Illustrated will ever be the same?
Actually, I think it'll look exactly the same as it does now.

Digital video has been with us for what, a decade?

Yes, the RED is a nice piece of gear.
Yes, a lot of advertising is moving into areas where the client wants motion.
Yes, the RED makes integrating video and HQ print shots a bit easier.
But No, RED is not the Second Coming....

As for "developing technology now for applications that haven't even been thought of yet" .... Well there are a load of companies that have gone bust trying to sell solutions to problems that don't exist, luckily RED's core product does address a real need. I have little sympathy for romantic film diehards, but I have less for overblown digital hype-merchants. But as long as they keep their engineers away from the drugs their PR dept is taking, I expect RED will carry on from strength to strength until Canikon pulls the rug from under their feet in 3-5 years' time.
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bcooter

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« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2009, 02:55:50 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
I think, long-term, this whole Red thing could get interesting. Think 3-5 years. But there seems to be a huge laundry list of unanswered questions about shooting Stills with this thing. Do you really want to drag around a kart with two G5 towers on it?


When I look at the IC production still on APE's blog I get the same weird cold feeling of déjà vu  that I got 4 years ago when I saw production stills of photographers using pre canon dedicated digital backs hooked to G5's with dual monitors and 450 lbs of anthro cart just to see a polaroid.  

I get the same butt tightening feel when a rental studio took me on a tour of their dedicated digital lab that had old slow cameras, fiber optics, dedicated raids, bomb proof enclosures, quadruple backups, dedicated server sites (with their logos on it)  and promises of doing everything I needed.

All I had to be was the happy go lucky photographer, who comes on set,  model's under each arm, a joint hanging from my lip and in my best fake euro accent says,  "whadda we shootin' today mates" as some well meaning dedicated geek slash wanna be photographer hands me a camera and I just push a button, laugh with the clients and then run down to my waiting limo to take me to next fun gig.

The only costs of this fun lifestyle was my profit, my self esteem and turning over my client list to these guys, but hey no worries, they're gonna do the heavy lifting, I'm gonna do the fun part and even though I'll be broke in a year, having fun is expensive . . . right?

We're all gonna get caught up in this, whether we like it or not.  These digital tech/motion tech/RED carrying, 400 terabyte storing companies are gonna get into our life the minute your best client says, "Big Madoof's International Color Group" will supply the camera.  

That'll be the process for a while, at least as long as photo blogs, art buyers and everyone that pays $4,000 a month to live in a closet with two roommates believes the only way to shoot is with an "official" motion camera company, but in realty these self appointed experts don't really know the difference between 4k and KY.  They just heard it's true and hey the talk at a free cocktail party in Manhattan has more validity with these people than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Until Canon, Nikon or Panasonic makes just a good of a camera for about 1/100th of the price, we're going to have to weather the storm, or man up, learn how to do it ourselves and tell these guys to take the bus back to Redhook, Silver Lake, or their parent's basement in Ohio.

Eventually these companies will go the same direction as the 1500 still digital tech companies that are sending me e-mails daily, as they pack their boxes for the cheaper rent in dumbo, while saying I can rent two p65pluses for $42 and lunch, or the  tech companies that are sending out orange faced 5d2 clips promising still photography is dead but don't worry about it, they own a $2,895 Canon and two  portable lcd's so they can shoot the motion for you as long as you like orange skin and your provide lunch.

The world of professional image making is in a flat spin, the wings are coming off and the pilots are looking at the geek in seat 22b to save them, rather than trusting their own skills to grab the wheel and save themselves.

It doesn't work that way, never really has and unfortunately once digital became the standard a lot of great photographers have been playing catch up, or buying into the hype, mortgaging their houses to buy the latest and greatest just praying to the heavens that a camera is going to save em because some well known celeb photographer shoots a spread with a RED, A Phase, A Blad or a Leaf.  Of course in real life, those well known photographers shoot about 75% of their paying white seamless background work with a 1ds2 or a 5d they borrowed from their first assistant.

Now don't believe for a moment these dedicated tech companies or specialty camera companies are gonna give up easily because they is fast money to be made and they all know that if you want to sell something to insecure photographers  just mention megapixels or better put, yours is too small, mine is bigger.  They are the blue pill of the photography world and they know it.  Guess what still camera format companies they learned that business model from?

I saw that spread of Mr. + Mrs. Willis in W and it's nice photography, huge pre production, huge crews, and typical S+M Steven K., which I have no problem with, but when you get past the hype the final reproduction could have been shot with a Nikon d-90, especially since three of the spreads are out of focus and their is more retouching on the images than a publicity still of Joan Rivers.

The strange thing about that spread is so far I've seen no motion imagery from the shoot.  Maybe it's in the works, maybe it's buried on Utube, but I doubt if it will see the light of day, because hiring Pascal to  retouch 24fps to look like the w spread is going to coast about 300 grand, even at the editorial discount.

But back to your original mention of the two Intel towers and a room full techs, the Red doesn't really take all of this.   A pocket full of CF cards, a monitor (even the camera monitor) for viewing will do the same thing as using a Canon or Nikon for stills.  Just shoot to card, fill em up and then hand them off the the first assistant to store in a Lacie drive.  I ain't a RED fanboy, but they do themselves a disservice always showing that camera with 400lbs of PL mount lenses and rods when all you really need is a few old Nikors and a tripod, though if you don't fall for the blue pill syndrome, you can do most of the same with a 5d2.

Actually for a combo job a 5d2 might be better, because pulling a still from a piece of motion might be possible, but it's probably going to have some pretty strange expressions.  It's a different process shooting for motion and stills and even if the technique is the same, the direction is different, not always but usually.

Anyway . . .

The real deal is the geeks can make all the electronic gizmos the want, but it still takes talent, light, subjects, hard work and a lot of experience to put anything on a screen that anybody wants to watch, still or moving.   Someday photographers will realize their worth is not in the size of their camera, but what is rolling around in all that beat up gray matter.

Like it or not, motion or combination motion stills are with us  and the clock doesn't run backwards.  The chances of print making a huge comeback are the same odds as the average family curling up in the living room to listen to the Lone Ranger at 7 pm on CBS radio and since we're talking somewhat new technology, the geek in seat 22b just got a new gig, at least for a year.

BC
« Last Edit: July 03, 2009, 02:58:13 pm by bcooter »
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Snook

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« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2009, 03:06:47 pm »

Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
Thanks! As for Phase One they should look at what Red is doing also look at the success of the 5DMKII. If Phase could come out with the ZD camera with video at a good price it would be interesting. Also the fact that the coming 645 Red camera (EPIC 645 Monstro 9K, 50fps
Medium format mount
Mamiya)  uses the Mamiya 645 lens & when you think about the stills coming off that camera they should be impressive.
 
This quote is from the RED web site Q&A (Quote)
It is a question that we have heard more than we could ever have imagined. It's funny, because it makes us realize that we don't think conventionally. The whole philosophy of RED is to stay at the very cutting edge of technology and the only way to do that is to stay ahead of it. We are developing technology now for applications that haven't even been thought of yet. We have been in conversation with like-minded forward thinkers that are already developing plans for our cameras, in configurations and scenarios that will boggle the mind. Digital medium format, 65 megapixel, at 50 frames per second. Do you think the cover of Sports Illustrated will ever be the same? Digital Stereo IMAX....... in slow motion. If you can't imagine it, you will be very entertained by it.
End (Quote)
Denis

Well you know they aren't talking about Phase if they say Forward Thinkers..
Phase keeps putting along with their 10 year BAck design and CRAP LCD..

Yeh a lot of guys jump in saying. " Who cares about the LCD". They are also the morons who keep buying PhaseOne backs.

The shit has pretty much hit the fan. Many have died out and will die very soon.
Phase should be embarrassed designing a 65 megapixel camera charging all kinds of $$$ for it and keeping it in the same body. And then have a crap camera like the Phamiya to put it on and no lens that are even going to work with the 65 megapixel..Atleast not well

DesW might be a blessing the UPS ran over it.. Take the money and run.. You going to buy another? I imagine not.
I guess it will be Hassleblad in the end for MF and Red as well...:+}

I do not see how Phase and Mamiya are going to make it through the up hill battle with their current design. What the hell was the Phamiya all about.. crap!

Snook  


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TMARK

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« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2009, 04:19:54 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
When I look at the IC production still on APE's blog I get the same weird cold feeling of déjà vu  that I got 4 years ago when I saw production stills of photographers using pre canon dedicated digital backs hooked to G5's with dual monitors and 450 lbs of anthro cart just to see a polaroid.  

I get the same butt tightening feel when a rental studio took me on a tour of their dedicated digital lab that had old slow cameras, fiber optics, dedicated raids, bomb proof enclosures, quadruple backups, dedicated server sites (with their logos on it)  and promises of doing everything I needed.

All I had to be was the happy go lucky photographer, who comes on set,  model's under each arm, a joint hanging from my lip and in my best fake euro accent says,  "whadda we shootin' today mates" as some well meaning dedicated geek slash wanna be photographer hands me a camera and I just push a button, laugh with the clients and then run down to my waiting limo to take me to next fun gig.

The only costs of this fun lifestyle was my profit, my self esteem and turning over my client list to these guys, but hey no worries, they're gonna do the heavy lifting, I'm gonna do the fun part and even though I'll be broke in a year, having fun is expensive . . . right?

We're all gonna get caught up in this, whether we like it or not.  These digital tech/motion tech/RED carrying, 400 terabyte storing companies are gonna get into our life the minute your best client says, "Big Madoof's International Color Group" will supply the camera.  

That'll be the process for a while, at least as long as photo blogs, art buyers and everyone that pays $4,000 a month to live in a closet with two roommates believes the only way to shoot is with an "official" motion camera company, but in realty these self appointed experts don't really know the difference between 4k and KY.  They just heard it's true and hey the talk at a free cocktail party in Manhattan has more validity with these people than the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Until Canon, Nikon or Panasonic makes just a good of a camera for about 1/100th of the price, we're going to have to weather the storm, or man up, learn how to do it ourselves and tell these guys to take the bus back to Redhook, Silver Lake, or their parent's basement in Ohio.

Eventually these companies will go the same direction as the 1500 still digital tech companies that are sending me e-mails daily, as they pack their boxes for the cheaper rent in dumbo, while saying I can rent two p65pluses for $42 and lunch, or the  tech companies that are sending out orange faced 5d2 clips promising still photography is dead but don't worry about it, they own a $2,895 Canon and two  portable lcd's so they can shoot the motion for you as long as you like orange skin and your provide lunch.

The world of professional image making is in a flat spin, the wings are coming off and the pilots are looking at the geek in seat 22b to save them, rather than trusting their own skills to grab the wheel and save themselves.

It doesn't work that way, never really has and unfortunately once digital became the standard a lot of great photographers have been playing catch up, or buying into the hype, mortgaging their houses to buy the latest and greatest just praying to the heavens that a camera is going to save em because some well known celeb photographer shoots a spread with a RED, A Phase, A Blad or a Leaf.  Of course in real life, those well known photographers shoot about 75% of their paying white seamless background work with a 1ds2 or a 5d they borrowed from their first assistant.

Now don't believe for a moment these dedicated tech companies or specialty camera companies are gonna give up easily because they is fast money to be made and they all know that if you want to sell something to insecure photographers  just mention megapixels or better put, yours is too small, mine is bigger.  They are the blue pill of the photography world and they know it.  Guess what still camera format companies they learned that business model from?

I saw that spread of Mr. + Mrs. Willis in W and it's nice photography, huge pre production, huge crews, and typical S+M Steven K., which I have no problem with, but when you get past the hype the final reproduction could have been shot with a Nikon d-90, especially since three of the spreads are out of focus and their is more retouching on the images than a publicity still of Joan Rivers.

The strange thing about that spread is so far I've seen no motion imagery from the shoot.  Maybe it's in the works, maybe it's buried on Utube, but I doubt if it will see the light of day, because hiring Pascal to  retouch 24fps to look like the w spread is going to coast about 300 grand, even at the editorial discount.

But back to your original mention of the two Intel towers and a room full techs, the Red doesn't really take all of this.   A pocket full of CF cards, a monitor (even the camera monitor) for viewing will do the same thing as using a Canon or Nikon for stills.  Just shoot to card, fill em up and then hand them off the the first assistant to store in a Lacie drive.  I ain't a RED fanboy, but they do themselves a disservice always showing that camera with 400lbs of PL mount lenses and rods when all you really need is a few old Nikors and a tripod, though if you don't fall for the blue pill syndrome, you can do most of the same with a 5d2.

Actually for a combo job a 5d2 might be better, because pulling a still from a piece of motion might be possible, but it's probably going to have some pretty strange expressions.  It's a different process shooting for motion and stills and even if the technique is the same, the direction is different, not always but usually.

Anyway . . .

The real deal is the geeks can make all the electronic gizmos the want, but it still takes talent, light, subjects, hard work and a lot of experience to put anything on a screen that anybody wants to watch, still or moving.   Someday photographers will realize their worth is not in the size of their camera, but what is rolling around in all that beat up gray matter.

Like it or not, motion or combination motion stills are with us  and the clock doesn't run backwards.  The chances of print making a huge comeback are the same odds as the average family curling up in the living room to listen to the Lone Ranger at 7 pm on CBS radio and since we're talking somewhat new technology, the geek in seat 22b just got a new gig, at least for a year.

BC

BC, I agree, and what I think this means is that its the end of the still shooter, at least the guy/gal that only shoots stills, or even primarily shoots stills.  The mindset is so different, you have to think in different dimensions, really use time, and consider it, movement is a bitch when it needs to be fluid.  The bread and butter white/gray background catalogue shooters probably won't be able to adapt.  Directing a pretty girl in one spot to look natural and hold herself such that the clothes flow is a minor part of directing.  There is flow, space, changing light, script, concept, etc. Its a different game, it is also more collaborative than being a stills guy.  That J. Russell gets movement, he can think forward and in many dimensions.  I fear most others can't.  

I was having lunch with a CD here in Richmond VA just yesterday. National accounts. Kind of like Don Draper but with longer hair and a ratty wardrobe.  Over sushi he tells me he hasn't had a stills only campaign in two years, and that when he needs stills, he hires a clean up crew to shoot during rehearsals or in between takes.  Often times the DP or Cinematographer shoots the stills for some extra compensation.

The hipster/nerd techs from Redhook/Los Feliz and their Manhattan dwelling masters can smell the fear in the sweat of stills guys as they see a Red and all those towers.  "Its just so complicated!  How do I handle, manage, learn all this new crap?"  The solution is not to skim what little is left of a budget on a MFDB style, bloated, overstaffed, power hungry tech staff.  The solution is to look at film crews.  You have a Mac Book Pro, a couple of GForce Raids, a bunch of LaCie ruggeds, a bunch of 16gig cards and the Red hard drive storage device, and PL mount Nikkors and an Arri matte Box.  This is the typical set up.  We use the on camera monitor and the eye cup.  Our AC feeds the camera batteries, cards, does back ups.  An on set editor logs the clips into the G-Raids.  Its not a big, big production like IC and Splashlight will lead you to believe.  You can do this with a Sony EX3 for something like $6k.  My point is that it doesn't have to be a huge production.

The stills guys who will survive and thrive will be those who can adapt to the skill set and mentality of a film crew.  That is the culture and dynamic that will be profitable, not the bankrupt NYC/LA photo world velvet hand job, where the people making the least amount on a set are the actual crew, but damn, the catering is excellent.
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DesW

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« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2009, 05:11:07 pm »

Quote from: Snook
DesW might be a blessing the UPS ran over it.. Take the money and run.. You going to buy another? I imagine not.
I guess it will be Hassleblad in the end for MF and Red as well...:+}

Ha Snooky,
I guess the organ grinders getting a sore arm with all this wailing-- are we starting to sound like the carpenter who blames his tools?
After all look at the amazing Images Denis M gets with the Mammys--He is being Modest today --but he has just won MORE major awards in the Oz AIPP
Kudos to him.
UPS are saying "Insufficient packaging"--short of an Anvil case what is truck proof?
The crux of the matter though is it was the RETURN Packaging -- from MAC, that is the offending in question-- watch this space.

Change if we but could

DesW

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Phil Indeblanc

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« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2009, 06:02:34 pm »

BC is a poet...wow, that was so interesting to read. I would be surprised if you don't have a regular column running in one of the photo magazines.  If you don't who ever has some contact, get this man his 5% ink coverage on some glossy paper!
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bcooter

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« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2009, 02:31:20 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
The hipster/nerd techs from Redhook/Los Feliz and their Manhattan dwelling masters can smell the fear in the sweat of stills guys as they see a Red and all those towers.  "Its just so complicated!  How do I handle, manage, learn all this new crap?"


TMark

As you know, this biz has always been kind of sideways when it comes to reality.  The fact that great first assistants make 1/3 of a prop stylist when an assistant brings $120,000 worth of education, works 12 hour days like a pack mule and the prop stylist knows where to shop, never made any sense.  That doesn't mean that some prop stylists aren't worth much more than their rate, but when the props are shoes and a few chairs, probably not and we all know few productions can get shot without a great first assistant, but anybody can go to Century 21 and buy a box of brown shoes.

Then again, the advertising biz is centered around New York, the celebrity biz around LA and living in both those cities I know they are 180 degrees out of touch with the real world.  We just spoke with the woman who owns a small shop in the village, where we store our grip and lighting.

Even in todays economy, the landlord went up from 5 to 11 to $13,000 a month.  No one in the out of NY/LA world can make sense that 1,200 sq. ft. of old dusty retail space goes for that kind of money and no property owner outside of those cities would dare raise rents right now, but in the world of AIG, Briese Lights and Orange juice package design that costs 35 million (and fails), $13,000 is just a drop in the bucket.

Right now the ad biz is in a world of hurt and as you say, the lavishness has been cut. (probably because the landlord went up on the rent).  

Hell I could probably shoot the next two gigs in my living room if it would save $500 and I doubt if a client would say a word.

But that's right now, once the economy turns it will probably go back to where it was, with $2,500 worth of catering a day, special cup cake runs and a crew of 10 just to shoot boring imagery on white seamless.  I hope not, because if all of the NY/LA "creatives" and their respective "creative" groups moved to Kansas City, Des Moines, or San Antonio, they would actually have some idea how the consumer lives, works and plays.    In those markets photographers could actually afford to have a studio, own a camera and still have enough left over for dinner.

Uh, oops, hold that thought.  I don't think it's a good idea if all those New York, El Lay folks moved to Kansas City, cause that's a nice town and they'd just mess it up.

What will not return is the only for print ad campaign.  Sure there will be exceptions, (there are always exceptions), but no advertiser has a lot of faith in any traditional media, print or broadcast as they think that their target markets spends about 75% of their waking moments staring into some kind of lcd screen.

I laugh when I walk down Houston and look into the bars and kids are nursing their one beer sitting in groups of 8, all with an Iphone or black berry twittering each other and as absurd as that type of socializing is, it is the new way to party.  Now I know that in the real world, plumbers, ranchers, electricians and police don't sit around in bars after work and google, looking for their next pair of $200 jeans,  but since the decisions on what we see, when we see it comes from two cities, the people making those decisions think that's how all the world has fun, so the media dollars are moving to interactive.

Zipcodeitius. It's like herpes.  You can calm it down but you just can't get rid of it.

I think what your doing with the RED is smart, actually brilliant and when the dust clears, the large tech companies with overblown, overpriced, overworked methods will be either discounting below costs or go into some other business, probably diet pills, or "interactive" I phone apps.

The rule for the next few years will be to keep it lean and mean.  It actually makes for better imagery, it actually makes a job more fun to shoot not hooked to 300 lbs of computer, or stepping around a crew large enough to build a condo.

Now what cameras we use, I don't know, nor do I really care if it's Panasonic, Nikon, Canon or the RED.  I kind of hope it's the RED "if" and I should underscore the world "if",  RED really does come out with something that doesn't take an upgrade a month and gets past build 21, then maybe they will be the standard of real usability, not hype.

If you shot digital video prior to today you know that the traditional video camera makers have milked the hell out of video equipment.  1/3, 1/2, 2/3's inch chips, 30i, 30p, 24p standard def and then the cycle repeats with high def to the point, you never really got he camera you needed and you always knew that whatever you bought was going to be a doorstop in 9 months.  

What turned most still photographers away from video wasn't the cameras or shooting something moving, it was the way the imagery looked.  Those tiny 3 ccd machines pulled focus from the lens hood to the horizon and the color looked like a BBC special of Prince Charles' rare book collection.

RED has the chance of a lifetime but they have to deliver and not get greedy.  Greed is out, imagery that sells is in and one of the very good things about digital motion imagery (is that a term?) nobody has the budget to over clone, over retouch and over effect a series of images unless it's 30 second spot and even big media buy Tee Vee commercials are starting to get the design look of websites or they are turning to illustration.  

I'm sure once everyone shoots motion, we will be back to retouching every pimple, every pore to Barbie Doll perfect, with male models that have hair that would embarress Dame Edna,  but until then now is a good time to have some fun and shoot something that actually looks human.

Probably shoot it in Kansas City, but don't tell your friends that live in NoHo, SoHo, SoFe, SoMa or NoBu.  They'll probably stay.

BC
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billy

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« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2009, 04:02:41 pm »

"I'm sure once everyone shoots motion, we will be back to retouching every pimple, every pore to Barbie Doll perfect, with male models that have hair that would embarress Dame Edna, but until then now is a good time to have some fun and shoot something that actually looks human." BC

hey that entire post was a great read but I am especially interested in the retouching comment. Now that ALL my clients expect things to be retouched out later ( No, dont go move that garbage truck out of the scene, we will photoshop it out later ), how are they going to react when it is a 30 second video clip; how do retouch that? I am clueless regarding video post processing.
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cmi

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« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2009, 04:53:17 pm »

Quote from: billy
"I'm sure once everyone shoots motion, we will be back to retouching every pimple, every pore to Barbie Doll perfect, with male models that have hair that would embarress Dame Edna, but until then now is a good time to have some fun and shoot something that actually looks human." BC

hey that entire post was a great read but I am especially interested in the retouching comment. Now that ALL my clients expect things to be retouched out later ( No, dont go move that garbage truck out of the scene, we will photoshop it out later ), how are they going to react when it is a 30 second video clip; how do retouch that? I am clueless regarding video post processing.

Have a look at for example Autodesk Combustion or Inferno, or Apples Shake. The basic principe is that the software analyzes, guided by you, the motion in the whole clip and puts out animation curves for important points (Non changing high contrast stuff, eg. sharp edges or type) wich you can also specify. These could be lets say 100-1000, but for the simplest example you just need 3 (to define a triangle to provide perspective over time).  Then you can attach all kind of graphics to these animation curves. Partial occlusions can be handled with more points and position estimation. New labels onto cars, background copies from later or earlier times to clone out trucks and put in CG objects, no problem. Of course its a bit more complicated and you have to make it look good, but thats the basic principe.
You can take it a step further and export the motion curves into 3D software. Once you have the data there and since you can also recreate camera motion, you can create any elements you desire, light them according to the original footage, render them out and put them in place where needed, and blend them in back in the compositing app.

Christian
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 05:23:12 pm by Christian Miersch »
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TMARK

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« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2009, 05:43:13 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
TMark

As you know, this biz has always been kind of sideways when it comes to reality.  The fact that great first assistants make 1/3 of a prop stylist when an assistant brings $120,000 worth of education, works 12 hour days like a pack mule and the prop stylist knows where to shop, never made any sense.  That doesn't mean that some prop stylists aren't worth much more than their rate, but when the props are shoes and a few chairs, probably not and we all know few productions can get shot without a great first assistant, but anybody can go to Century 21 and buy a box of brown shoes.

Then again, the advertising biz is centered around New York, the celebrity biz around LA and living in both those cities I know they are 180 degrees out of touch with the real world.  We just spoke with the woman who owns a small shop in the village, where we store our grip and lighting.

Even in todays economy, the landlord went up from 5 to 11 to $13,000 a month.  No one in the out of NY/LA world can make sense that 1,200 sq. ft. of old dusty retail space goes for that kind of money and no property owner outside of those cities would dare raise rents right now, but in the world of AIG, Briese Lights and Orange juice package design that costs 35 million (and fails), $13,000 is just a drop in the bucket.

Right now the ad biz is in a world of hurt and as you say, the lavishness has been cut. (probably because the landlord went up on the rent).  

Hell I could probably shoot the next two gigs in my living room if it would save $500 and I doubt if a client would say a word.

But that's right now, once the economy turns it will probably go back to where it was, with $2,500 worth of catering a day, special cup cake runs and a crew of 10 just to shoot boring imagery on white seamless.  I hope not, because if all of the NY/LA "creatives" and their respective "creative" groups moved to Kansas City, Des Moines, or San Antonio, they would actually have some idea how the consumer lives, works and plays.    In those markets photographers could actually afford to have a studio, own a camera and still have enough left over for dinner.

Uh, oops, hold that thought.  I don't think it's a good idea if all those New York, El Lay folks moved to Kansas City, cause that's a nice town and they'd just mess it up.

What will not return is the only for print ad campaign.  Sure there will be exceptions, (there are always exceptions), but no advertiser has a lot of faith in any traditional media, print or broadcast as they think that their target markets spends about 75% of their waking moments staring into some kind of lcd screen.

I laugh when I walk down Houston and look into the bars and kids are nursing their one beer sitting in groups of 8, all with an Iphone or black berry twittering each other and as absurd as that type of socializing is, it is the new way to party.  Now I know that in the real world, plumbers, ranchers, electricians and police don't sit around in bars after work and google, looking for their next pair of $200 jeans,  but since the decisions on what we see, when we see it comes from two cities, the people making those decisions think that's how all the world has fun, so the media dollars are moving to interactive.

Zipcodeitius. It's like herpes.  You can calm it down but you just can't get rid of it.

I think what your doing with the RED is smart, actually brilliant and when the dust clears, the large tech companies with overblown, overpriced, overworked methods will be either discounting below costs or go into some other business, probably diet pills, or "interactive" I phone apps.

The rule for the next few years will be to keep it lean and mean.  It actually makes for better imagery, it actually makes a job more fun to shoot not hooked to 300 lbs of computer, or stepping around a crew large enough to build a condo.

Now what cameras we use, I don't know, nor do I really care if it's Panasonic, Nikon, Canon or the RED.  I kind of hope it's the RED "if" and I should underscore the world "if",  RED really does come out with something that doesn't take an upgrade a month and gets past build 21, then maybe they will be the standard of real usability, not hype.

If you shot digital video prior to today you know that the traditional video camera makers have milked the hell out of video equipment.  1/3, 1/2, 2/3's inch chips, 30i, 30p, 24p standard def and then the cycle repeats with high def to the point, you never really got he camera you needed and you always knew that whatever you bought was going to be a doorstop in 9 months.  

What turned most still photographers away from video wasn't the cameras or shooting something moving, it was the way the imagery looked.  Those tiny 3 ccd machines pulled focus from the lens hood to the horizon and the color looked like a BBC special of Prince Charles' rare book collection.

RED has the chance of a lifetime but they have to deliver and not get greedy.  Greed is out, imagery that sells is in and one of the very good things about digital motion imagery (is that a term?) nobody has the budget to over clone, over retouch and over effect a series of images unless it's 30 second spot and even big media buy Tee Vee commercials are starting to get the design look of websites or they are turning to illustration.  

I'm sure once everyone shoots motion, we will be back to retouching every pimple, every pore to Barbie Doll perfect, with male models that have hair that would embarress Dame Edna,  but until then now is a good time to have some fun and shoot something that actually looks human.

Probably shoot it in Kansas City, but don't tell your friends that live in NoHo, SoHo, SoFe, SoMa or NoBu.  They'll probably stay.

BC

BC, I think it is like this:  if you value the image, and can stick to your brief of communicating an idea, creating a fantasy, conveying mood, then the medium doesn't matter. Stills, motion, illustration, etc., film, digital, 4x5, Red, Hi8, just doesn't matter in big picture terms.  These are (important) details, but many shooters let the tail wag the dog, like Dustin Hoffman in Rainman getting stuck on watching Wapner at 4.  Big picture thinking is really the domain of the AD and CD, but its our job as creative collaborators to produce the big picture idea, and even to assist in concepting (which is a term I hate but it is descriptive and accurate) the ideas.  You and your Doppelganger know this, but this is the hard lesson that, I think, is coming with the switch to motion, mainly due to the broader duties of a director.  You have to bring more to the table than composition skills, megapixels, and white teeth.  You have to bring some added value beyond production that involves grey matter and emotional intelligence, an informed visual and emotional sophistry that partners you with your client in effectively communicating an idea, thus selling a product.  You and your Doppelganger know this.  Of the people reading this, only a few know it, a few more will understand it, and only a few are capable of implementing it.  The rest are wondering why this is in the Large Sensor section and not in the ComboCam section.

As to NYC, I'm over it.  Having kids cured me of Zipcodeitus.  I see some really talented people broken on the NYC wheel, mainly money and space issues.

Time to make the fireworks run!  A Happy 4th to You and Yours!



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gwhitf

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« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2009, 08:04:09 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
You have to bring more to the table than composition skills, megapixels, and white teeth.  You have to bring some added value beyond production that involves grey matter and emotional intelligence, an informed visual and emotional sophistry that partners you with your client in effectively communicating an idea, thus selling a product.  You and your Doppelganger know this.  Of the people reading this, only a few know it, a few more will understand it, and only a few are capable of implementing it.  The rest are wondering why this is in the Large Sensor section and not in the ComboCam section.

One of the best posts ever on this forum. Commendable.

Was in the movie theatre last night, and this came on before the Previews. Lists another guy as the Director, but lists McGinley as "Photographer". I guess that means DP, (actually holding the camera)? I've never been a big fan of McGinley, but I think he's stepping into his own now. I know they caught hell when Wrangler and Levis used the same "look", but I applaud McGinley for simply saying, (after he takes a bong hit), "Hey man, this is what I do. Screw your Focus-Group comps; screw your PDFs; just let me do what I do". And not only does he get away with it, it's a pretty appealing visual to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUVRJMrLw40
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 08:12:10 pm by gwhitf »
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