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Author Topic: Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not  (Read 11530 times)

dfarkas

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2009, 10:58:21 am »

There is a lot of focus on the downside for Leica, but I think that a lot of people don't realize what this may mean for Phase One. Leica is/was their single largest C1 customer. Every D-Lux 4, D-Lux 4 Titanium, M8, and M8.2 ships with a licensed copy of C1. If we figure ~100,000 D-Lux 4s and ~35,000 M8/M8.2s (over the last 2 years), I'm sure that the amount Leica pays Phase for ~135,000 (or more) s/w licensees is not insignificant. This is additional revenue that could disappear in the future. I don't know the details of this deal or the "strategic alliance" that got canceled, but these things work both ways.

Leica's advantage is that the S2, just like the DMR and M8 before it, shoot in the non-proprietary DNG format. This allows almost any RAW processing s/w to work with S2 files off the shelf today. As to what Leica has planned for included s/w is anybody's guess right now. Back at PMA, there was already some discussoin of working with Adobe or possibly developing something in-house, so I think Leica has known this relationship with Phase One wasn't really going to work out for some time now.  Even back at Photokina in September, the S2 files were being demoed in Lightroom. For the LFI shoot in Germany a few months later, the photographer used Aperture to process his S2 files.

While we may never know all the reasons behind 1) the announcement at Photokina and 2) calling it off some months later, some things are clear.
  • Phase wanted Leica glass for their Phamiya system. This wasn't going to happen (Leica even said so back at Photokina). Why give away your greatest competitive edge?
  • Phase wanted to be able to sell the S2 through its sales channels. Again, since Photokina, Leica said that wasn't going to happen either. At PMA in March, the S2 product manager went on record with me that the S2 would only be sold and supported through Leica dealers.
  • Phase said that they were deeply involved with development of sensor, firmware, etc. on the S2. Leica refuted this 100% the day it was said. The information coming from Phase just wasn't jiving with Leica's reality.
  • With the S2 being in direct competition with Phase, there were concerns at Leica as to whether Phase would allow C1 to give optimal results for S2 files, or whether they might cripple it in some way.
  • On the Phase side of things, they don't want to help a clear competitor. Hasselblad, Sinar, and (until the the recent Phase/Leaf deal materializes) Leaf are unsupported in C1 for this reason. With the ZD, an agreement was struck with Mamiya that Phase dealers would have a one-month head start selling the new AFDIII ahead of Mamiya dealers, in exchange for C1 support. They would also be able to brand it for their own use. Clearly, the ZD, with older technology, was not a threat, so adding support for it in C1 was no big deal. The S2 is a different story. Incidentally, before that deal was struck between Mamiya and Phase, the ZD shipped with Lightroom bundled.

Admittedly, C1 is great software. I use it for most of my files. It is missing the Digital Asset Management abilities found Aperture and Lightroom, but I live with that limitation because I really like the quality of the files. If another solution will give me equal quality files, with the added benefit of DAM, I'll be a happy camper. We'll have to see what Leica announces in the coming weeks, but I for one am not surprised by the news. I'm only surprised it was not announced earlier.

David

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hubell

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2009, 11:51:22 am »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Howard

You know how much Phase One users have suffered over the years because Flexcolor was not open to them.

Couldn't sleep last night?    


Steve

Yes, about as much as Hasselblad H3D owners have suffered by not being able to put their digital back on a Mamiya AFD! I must confess  that I have never awakened in the middle of the night with an overpowering urge to do that(but I probably know both of the photographers who have).
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 12:09:24 pm by hcubell »
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Steve Hendrix

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2009, 12:19:14 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
Yes, about as much as Hasselblad H3D owners have suffered by not being able to put their digital back on a Mamiya AFD! I must confess  that I have never awakened in the middle of the night with an overpowering urge to do that(but I probably know both of the photographers who have).



Back to your original issue of open/closed, if any H3D owner has suffered by not being able to put their digital back on an AFD (as you state), the not being able to is through no fault of ours, as the AFD is an open system. Any digital back can go on it, unless the manufacturer of that digital back has prevented this from occurring.


Steve
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Peartree

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2009, 01:28:38 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
what about the current owners of Leaf backs. Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?

Don't know the arrangements in the US, but certainly in the UK it is my understanding that Kodak have retained all the service staff in Israel and we, as dealers, are currently in contact with them. At present there is absolutely no difference in service levels, and I would expect that to continue. It might well be that when the Leaf Imaging Co. is up and running they might take over the service staff and obligation with the blessing of Kodak, it would certainly make sense, but that's merely conjecture at present.
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hubell

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2009, 02:36:35 pm »

Quote from: Peartree
Don't know the arrangements in the US, but certainly in the UK it is my understanding that Kodak have retained all the service staff in Israel and we, as dealers, are currently in contact with them. At present there is absolutely no difference in service levels, and I would expect that to continue. It might well be that when the Leaf Imaging Co. is up and running they might take over the service staff and obligation with the blessing of Kodak, it would certainly make sense, but that's merely conjecture at present.

So, to be clear, Phase One has NOT hired the service staff and undertaken the obligation to fulfill warranty obligations owed to the existing Leaf customer base. The Leaf owners will be relying for service on Kodak, which has every economic incentive to delay service, deny warranty coverage and otherwise do whatever it can to minimize the costs of service to it. Very reassuring.

Doug Peterson

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2009, 02:47:23 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
So, to be clear, Phase One has NOT hired the service staff and undertaken the obligation to fulfill warranty obligations owed to the existing Leaf customer base. The Leaf owners will be relying for service on Kodak, which has every economic incentive to delay service, deny warranty coverage and otherwise do whatever it can to minimize the costs of service to it. Very reassuring.

Clearly I'm going to very biased in this, but it might be worth waiting a few weeks/months to hear real-world-reports before assuming quality/speed of service will be anything but great.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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bcooter

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2009, 05:46:46 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Clearly I'm going to very biased in this, but it might be worth waiting a few weeks/months to hear real-world-reports before assuming quality/speed of service will be anything but great.



David Farkas and Doug,

Your both very well meaning gentlemen, but let's be honest about the specialty camera makers.  They let you and your customers down too many times.

BC
« Last Edit: July 02, 2009, 07:37:36 pm by bcooter »
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BernardLanguillier

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2009, 08:44:17 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
True, but have you processed an MEF through both C1 and LightRoom?

If I were a ZD owner I would be extremely pleased.

True, I still have many .mef around from my ZD days and C1 does a very good job with them, basically as good as Raw Developper on regular exposures with very nice colors.

RD remains significantly ahead on long exposures where it is in a class of its own.

Cheers,
Bernard

mcfoto

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2009, 05:15:00 am »

« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 07:24:27 am by mcfoto »
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Denis Montalbetti
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Mort54

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2009, 02:47:43 pm »

Quote from: hcubell
Does Phase's acquisition of Leaf include taking over the warranty obligations of Leaf ?
Howard, you're a lawyer, so you might have some extra insight into this. I was under the impression P1 didn't acquire Leaf, but rather formed a new company - Leaf Imaging, Ltd - with the mission of acquiring Leaf assets, and entering into an IP licensing agreement with Kodak. To me it sounds like P1 is simply buying up some of the Leaf technology, rather than acquiring Leaf outright. What's your take?
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hubell

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2009, 06:27:26 pm »

Quote from: Mort54
Howard, you're a lawyer, so you might have some extra insight into this. I was under the impression P1 didn't acquire Leaf, but rather formed a new company - Leaf Imaging, Ltd - with the mission of acquiring Leaf assets, and entering into an IP licensing agreement with Kodak. To me it sounds like P1 is simply buying up some of the Leaf technology, rather than acquiring Leaf outright. What's your take?

Yes, it is clear that Phase formed a new company and cherry picked certain tangible and intangible assets relating to the Leaf digital back business out of Leaf. It also appears that Phase left behind all of the liabilities associated with that business, including the obligations on the warranties held by existing Leaf customers on Leaf backs and AFI cameras. This pattern is not uncommon when a company buys selected assets of a failed company like Leaf. Kodak/Leaf will, in theory, continue to provide warranty service on those products. (Did you ever see the Aamco ad where a guy's car transmission breaks down in the middle of the desert and he leaves it for repair with the local service station? The guy calls several months later to ask how the repairs are coming along. The owner assure him that he has his best guys "on it", and the camera cuts to show two drunk employees lying on the hood of the car drinking beers. in the Phase One version of the ad, the equivalent of the service station owner asks the car owner if he is aware of new upgrade offers on Phase One backs.) On the Hy6/AFI project with Sinar, my expectation is that Phase could not take over any legal rights Leaf has under  that contract with Sinar to obtain AFI versions of the Hy6 without also assuming any contract obligations Leaf also has under that contract. It's unlikely that Phase is interested in doing that. This whole deal is much ado about nothing. They paid next to nothing, and they got commensurate value. They probably think they can migrate Leaf customers over time to Phase products, but there is a greater risk that they will alienate them with the walk away on the warranties and mediocre upgrade offers. Moreover, even a cherry pick like they are doing usurps limited management resources and is a distraction from fighting the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital. They keep talking about open v. closed systems as if the real battle is with Hasselblad. It's not, and they better figure it out because the people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2009, 06:37:56 pm by hcubell »
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Mort54

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2009, 01:54:53 am »

Quote from: hcubell
....the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital......people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
Couldn't agree more. I bought a D3X a couple of months ago and haven't used my P45+ since. The P45+ still delivers better resolution and acuity, but the D3X isn't far behind, and in other ways is at parity or ahead.
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John_Black

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2009, 02:28:02 am »

Quote from: BernardLanguillier
True, I still have many .mef around from my ZD days and C1 does a very good job with them, basically as good as Raw Developper on regular exposures with very nice colors.

RD remains significantly ahead on long exposures where it is in a class of its own.

Cheers,
Bernard

So, so true.  4 second exposure with the ZD dSLR.


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FlashDB

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Phase One/Leica Strategic Alliance: Not
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2009, 11:06:20 am »

Hi!
Looking at the flash presentation on the front of the phase web site today makes me believe your right Howard!
An obvious move I must say - Why not just say "Upgrade now and stay safe"  

/FlashDB
Contax & P25
H3DII-39
H2

Quote from: hcubell
Yes, it is clear that Phase formed a new company and cherry picked certain tangible and intangible assets relating to the Leaf digital back business out of Leaf. It also appears that Phase left behind all of the liabilities associated with that business, including the obligations on the warranties held by existing Leaf customers on Leaf backs and AFI cameras. This pattern is not uncommon when a company buys selected assets of a failed company like Leaf. Kodak/Leaf will, in theory, continue to provide warranty service on those products. (Did you ever see the Aamco ad where a guy's car transmission breaks down in the middle of the desert and he leaves it for repair with the local service station? The guy calls several months later to ask how the repairs are coming along. The owner assure him that he has his best guys "on it", and the camera cuts to show two drunk employees lying on the hood of the car drinking beers. in the Phase One version of the ad, the equivalent of the service station owner asks the car owner if he is aware of new upgrade offers on Phase One backs.) On the Hy6/AFI project with Sinar, my expectation is that Phase could not take over any legal rights Leaf has under  that contract with Sinar to obtain AFI versions of the Hy6 without also assuming any contract obligations Leaf also has under that contract. It's unlikely that Phase is interested in doing that. This whole deal is much ado about nothing. They paid next to nothing, and they got commensurate value. They probably think they can migrate Leaf customers over time to Phase products, but there is a greater risk that they will alienate them with the walk away on the warranties and mediocre upgrade offers. Moreover, even a cherry pick like they are doing usurps limited management resources and is a distraction from fighting the real battle, which is the encroachment of Canon/Nikon on the historic turf of medium format digital. They keep talking about open v. closed systems as if the real battle is with Hasselblad. It's not, and they better figure it out because the people who are deserting medium format digital for Canon/Nikon couldn't care less that those cameras are completely closed. They just work very seamlessly and deliver what they promise.
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canmiya

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« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2009, 11:50:51 am »

for those in nyc, the leica reps will be at fotocare on monday and i understand they will have a production s2 on hand....
http://hdhd.wordpress.com/
regards
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narikin

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« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2009, 03:50:54 pm »

Quote from: Mort54
Couldn't agree more. I bought a D3X a couple of months ago and haven't used my P45+ since. The P45+ still delivers better resolution and acuity, but the D3X isn't far behind, and in other ways is at parity or ahead.
would be intersted to know more of your thoguhts on the D3x and MF, its something I have been mulling over.
have read some very critical reviews of D3x and its pricing structure and age of that body design, but... its a tempting machine.

however 2Fps at the higher bit depth is not that great.
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FlashDB

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« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2009, 05:08:02 pm »

Hi Narkin

Follow this thread if you want some opinions: http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....showtopic=35658

Cheers

FlashDB

Quote from: narikin
would be intersted to know more of your thoguhts on the D3x and MF, its something I have been mulling over.
have read some very critical reviews of D3x and its pricing structure and age of that body design, but... its a tempting machine.

however 2Fps at the higher bit depth is not that great.
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