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Author Topic: Colour space in DPP  (Read 13021 times)

NigelC

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Colour space in DPP
« on: June 29, 2009, 06:17:33 AM »

I've encountered a strange problem. My raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998). I have been viewing the files in DPP using the option to show jpeg and raws as one file. When use the command Import into Photoshop, Photoshop tells me the file has an embedded profile which is sRGB - when I check the shooting info in DPP it confirms the space is Adobe - is the action of merging the raw and jpeg doing something here?
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NicholasDown

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 09:30:22 AM »

Quote from: NigelC
I've encountered a strange problem. My raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998). I have been viewing the files in DPP using the option to show jpeg and raws as one file. When use the command Import into Photoshop, Photoshop tells me the file has an embedded profile which is sRGB - when I check the shooting info in DPP it confirms the space is Adobe - is the action of merging the raw and jpeg doing something here?

Have you tried just importing a pure Raw file with no JPG? I'm wandering if the attached JPG is 'forcing' sRGB colour space in this scenario.
I import pure RAW (no JPGs attached) from a 5DMark 2 using what starts out as Adobe RGB but because I use either Lightroom or DXO I am able to render the raw files into ProPhoto RGB in Photoshop.

Alternatively, try bypassing DPP and import directly into photoshop (provided you've got the right RAW converter for the file) What camera are you using?
Hope that helps.
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NigelC

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 04:34:14 PM »

Quote from: NicholasDown
Have you tried just importing a pure Raw file with no JPG? I'm wandering if the attached JPG is 'forcing' sRGB colour space in this scenario.
I import pure RAW (no JPGs attached) from a 5DMark 2 using what starts out as Adobe RGB but because I use either Lightroom or DXO I am able to render the raw files into ProPhoto RGB in Photoshop.

Alternatively, try bypassing DPP and import directly into photoshop (provided you've got the right RAW converter for the file) What camera are you using?
Hope that helps.

I was using DPP because I've got a huge number of files I need to show as prof thumbnails and the DPP contact sheet option works better for me than Photoshop. Also, for something quick and dirty, applying a Portrait picture style to the raw file gives me a better result than I can get in ACR/PS for kids portraits. Camera is 5D (Mk1)
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Phil Indeblanc

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2009, 11:29:03 PM »

Have you tried  ACDSee pro 2.5? It does contac sheet printing, and it has replaced Bridge, LR2(I process in C1), and Explorer for me.

might be worth a look. I use it
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Panopeeper

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2009, 11:46:18 PM »

Quote from: NigelC
when I check the shooting info in DPP it confirms the space is Adobe - is the action of merging the raw and jpeg doing something here?
Tools --> Preferences --> Color management
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Gabor

bjanes

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2009, 09:41:31 AM »

Quote from: NigelC
I've encountered a strange problem. My raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998).

Raw files are in the color space of the camera. If you are shooting raw and set the camera to aRGB, the preview shown on the LCD and the histograms are from a JPEG rendering of the raw file into the set color space, but the raw data are not affected and the raw file is merely tagged with the color space set on the camera.

The raw converting software from most camera makers read the tag and render the raw image into the specified color space. However, the color space can be overridden. Most third party converters, such as Adobe Camera Raw, ignore the color space tag as well as most of the other camera settings except for white balance.

Bill
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Jeremy Payne

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2009, 10:19:30 AM »

Quote from: bjanes
If you are shooting raw and set the camera to aRGB, the preview shown on the LCD and the histograms are from a JPEG rendering of the raw file into the set color space...

What's the gamut of your typical camera LCD?  40% of Adobe?  Even less?
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bjanes

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2009, 11:10:08 AM »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
What's the gamut of your typical camera LCD?  40% of Adobe?  Even less?

The gamut of the LCD is undoubtedly rather small, but this is largely irrelevant since few experienced users use the LCD to assess the relative quality of the image. The histograms and blinking highlights are more useful in determining exposure and clipped color channels and they are affected by the chosen color space and tone curve.
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digitaldog

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2009, 04:07:04 PM »

Quote from: NigelC
I've encountered a strange problem. My raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998).

What do you mean your Raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998)? Raw has no color space.
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Andrew Rodney
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jerryrock

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2009, 05:27:29 PM »

The DPP program is embedding it's working space color profile when you choose Transfer to Photoshop. For my particular setup it transfers the file as a TIFF and not RAW.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2009, 05:32:06 PM by jerryrock »
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bjanes

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2009, 05:36:43 PM »

Quote from: digitaldog
What do you mean your Raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998)? Raw has no color space.

Digidog,

Old dogs apparently do not learn new tricks  

Bill
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digitaldog

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2009, 05:46:09 PM »

Quote from: bjanes
Old dogs apparently do not learn new tricks  

WTF does that mean?
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Andrew Rodney
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Panopeeper

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2009, 07:25:48 PM »

Quote from: digitaldog
What do you mean your Raw shots are in Adobe RGB (1998)? Raw has no color space .

A few days ago I was surprized when reading this:

Quote from: digitaldog
...
 How is having the data in the camera color space beneficial? You're exporting a output referred rendered image, presumably for further editing in Photoshop, so why not be in a well behaved RGB working space?

So, which one was a slip of tongue?
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Gabor

Czornyj

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2009, 06:03:30 AM »

Quote from: Panopeeper
So, which one was a slip of tongue?

None, I suppose. Camera color space is something different than the nonexisting "RAW color space".

bjanes

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2009, 08:56:59 AM »

Quote from: digitaldog
WTF does that mean?

Eric Walowit, Thomas Knoll and Chris Murphy all think that a raw file does have a color space. When asked by you, "Does a raw file have a color space?", these well recognized authorities responded:

Walowit: "Fundamentally, absolutely YES,..."

Knoll: "The fact that a mosaic array is “grayscale” is a red herring in this argument.  An early processing step fills in the missing values, and you have a 3 or 4 channel image as a result.  For most cameras, if you just “assign” a working space RGB profile, you get a recognizable color image as a result, so it certainly seems like a color space."

Murphy: "So yes a camera (and thus a Raw file) has a color space."

So, there does seem to be a learning problem or stubborn denial.

Bill
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digitaldog

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2009, 12:35:13 PM »

Quote from: Panopeeper
So, which one was a slip of tongue?

Neither. The Raw file is just that, the question was, what's the "color space" (certainly NOT Adobe RGB (1998)).

Once its no longer Raw, its rendered (output referred), it can (should?) be in a well behaved editing space like Adobe RGB (1998). So much depends on when and where in the process you refer to the data (Raw, scene referred or output referred).
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Andrew Rodney
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Panopeeper

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2009, 02:38:15 PM »

Quote from: Czornyj
Camera color space is something different than the nonexisting "RAW color space"
Of course "raw color space" is always camera specific, there is no generic raw color space. When I say "raw color space", then I mean the color space of the camera, which created that raw file.
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Gabor

Czornyj

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2009, 04:06:53 PM »

Quote from: Panopeeper
When I say "raw color space", then I mean the color space of the camera, which created that raw file.

But the real, native color space of the camera may change every time you make a picture. And camera profiles are describing the camera behavior only in synthetic circumstances, so we can't really say that camera profiles are RAW profiles. We have different camera profiles for different occasions - for example modern Nikon Cameras have 9 different camera profiles, and each of these profiles has 20 variants for different illuminants - that makes 180 camera profiles! And in my opinion we can't say that any of these profiles is a "real RAW profile".
« Last Edit: July 26, 2009, 04:08:25 PM by Czornyj »
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Jeremy Payne

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2009, 05:02:00 PM »

Quote from: Czornyj
But the real, native color space of the camera may change every time you make a picture.

Certainly changes with different lens and filter combinations.
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Czornyj

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Colour space in DPP
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2009, 05:11:49 PM »

Quote from: Jeremy Payne
Certainly changes with different lens and filter combinations.

...and - what's most influencial - with different light.
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