Phase Acquires Leaf

[YYZ]

hasselblad was the first to drop their prices. And the used lenses are pretty much a steal if you know what you want and stick to it. great deals can be had on ebay or KEH

ultimately Phase One ends up having gotten a competitor's IP and product line...but they still have a crappy camera.
Makes me glad I got that H3d for a steal..a camera system that actually works out of the box, with software that connects out of the box, with leaf shutters.

There is little comparison between Blad lenses and Mamiya when it comes to price whether they are new or used. Unless you are talking about older C lenses for the V system with the gummy shutters.

[pixjohn]

YYZ ? = Yaya?

There is little comparison between Blad lenses and Mamiya when it comes to price whether they are new or used. Unless you are talking about older C lenses for the V system with the gummy shutters.

[YYZ]

YYZ ? = Yaya?

nono!

[YYZ]

I bought three lenses for my Mamiya this year.

B&H sells the Mamiya lens for $1498.00

B&H sells the Hasselblad lens $3440.00

I used to be a Hasselblad shooter. They make a good camera. I switched to Mamiya and really enjoy shooting with it. Everyone has their preferences, mine are quality cameras with reasonably priced lenses. The leaf shutter is not important to me anymore so Mamiya does the trick for me. I assume the extra cost in the Hasselblad lenses is because of the leaf shutter. If you need it, there is little choice. I'd rather take the money saved and buy more gear.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...it=Submit+Query

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller...it=Submit+Query

[Neil Folberg]

Hello,

I have been assured that Leaf AFi owners will continue to receive service & support from Kodak-Leaf in the event that the platform is permanently discontinued. This is the worst case scenario. There seem to be other possibilities as well, which would seem to be better news for those of us who like and use the Rollei/Hy6/AFi platform and/or the zeiss/schneider/rollei lenses. Like everything else today, it is a complex situation and we'll just have to wait and see.

I personally have been using the Rollei 6008 for many years with an assortment of those magnificent lenses and recently upgraded to the AFi-ii 7 which accepts all those lenses. I liked the Rollei body and I think the AFi is a significant improvement, it has something intangible that for me makes it one of those rare pieces of equipment that is a natural extension to my eye and hand, without even considering the digital advantages. I have been using it extensively recently and have no regrets - my main concern: I only want it to last as I do not really need another platform and the AFi-ii 7 digital back is already an improvement over both medium and large format film. I do miss the 6x6 square format - but I'm managing with what I've got and can still use the film if I need it.

I feel lucky to have all this great equipment and want to make good use of it for many, many years to come. I cannot afford to replace lenses and why would I want to? Optics don't get better than this, so replacement would be a waste of money. The platform is great so here's hoping it's not a dinosaur - and if it is, that it will be possible to maintain it for a decade or more. It looks to me like it's made to last that long.

Neil

[KevinA]

No winner in this as I see it, a bit of assurance for Leaf owners. It looks more like another loop in the MF downward spiral to extinction. If you are not into a MF system at the moment it does not encourage you spill a load of money on a MF system. I can only think this will shrink the market even more. Phase has not bought this because they want it more a question of the survival of digital MF.

Kevin.

[paratom]

But how about those Rollei lenses? Leaf can provide service? Unlikely.

Do not know if Sinar can play alone with the Hy6 system.

you could try here for getting Rollei lenses serviced: www.paepke-fototechnik.de

[tho_mas]

you could try here for getting Rollei lenses serviced: www.paepke-fototechnik.de

maybe also at Wiese-Fototechnik - http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/
He's official service partner of F&H incl. Rollei 6008AF and Hy6. I guess he can service lenses as well.
 

[Plekto]

No winner in this as I see it, a bit of assurance for Leaf owners. It looks more like another loop in the MF downward spiral to extinction. If you are not into a MF system at the moment it does not encourage you spill a load of money on a MF system. I can only think this will shrink the market even more. Phase has not bought this because they want it more a question of the survival of digital MF.

Kevin.

I also saw this.  One danger of consolidation is that you now have just a few big players.   Either one of two things will happen(well, maybe both):

1 - Since this is a small niche, and the economy *will* get worse in a few years due to the financial idiocy of credit, most of the world trying to print its way out of this, outsourcing, and a dozen other factors that all are going to likely come rolling up on everyone all at once...      What happens if Phase dies?  You've just taken half of the DB market and killed it.  Oops.  

2 - You're now one single target for Canon or Nikon, or even Sigma or Fuji to come in and crush with a DB sensor or the equivalent in a 35mm body.  All of those companies are massive compared to Phase/Leaf/etc.  They can quite literally fart out more money in R&D than Phase has to run the entire company, most likely.  If they have a mind to, that is.   Imagine a 40MP Nikon or Canon.  It would take them a couple of years at this point.   It certainly will happen within the next decade.  Their normal competition between themselves will result in an "oops - what was that we just ran over?" scenario.  

$1 a pixel?  When the competition is putting out identical results for 1/10th of the cost...  Like it or not, aside from hobbyists, real production and photography work is about the cost.   When a $5K camera does the job that a $50K one did, there's no question that people who have a business to run in a major depression(looks to be shaping up to be one - sigh) will go with the better supported and less expensive option.  

Phase did this for one reason.  They believe that by growing large enough that they can survive the upcoming storm.  The simple fact is that the next generation of DSLRs will crush them anyways.

[BJNY]

I wonder how far off Canon & Nikon are from un-interpolated color (e.g. Foveon-like).
Each has published white papers on the subject.

I also saw this.  One danger of consolidation is that you now have just a few big players.   Either one of two things will happen(well, maybe both):

1 - Since this is a small niche, and the economy *will* get worse in a few years due to the financial idiocy of credit, most of the world trying to print its way out of this, outsourcing, and a dozen other factors that all are going to likely come rolling up on everyone all at once...      What happens if Phase dies?  You've just taken half of the DB market and killed it.  Oops.  

2 - You're now one single target for Canon or Nikon, or even Sigma or Fuji to come in and crush with a DB sensor or the equivalent in a 35mm body.  All of those companies are massive compared to Phase/Leaf/etc.  They can quite literally fart out more money in R&D than Phase has to run the entire company, most likely.  If they have a mind to, that is.   Imagine a 40MP Nikon or Canon.  It would take them a couple of years at this point.   It certainly will happen within the next decade.  Their normal competition between themselves will result in an "oops - what was that we just ran over?" scenario.  

$1 a pixel?  When the competition is putting out identical results for 1/10th of the cost...  Like it or not, aside from hobbyists, real production and photography work is about the cost.   When a $5K camera does the job that a $50K one did, there's no question that people who have a business to run in a major depression(looks to be shaping up to be one - sigh) will go with the better supported and less expensive option.  

Phase did this for one reason.  They believe that by growing large enough that they can survive the upcoming storm.  The simple fact is that the next generation of DSLRs will crush them anyways.

[tho_mas]

If F&H is dead, who they can get those lens and body spare parts?

When they run out of spare parts... I don't know. Basically they built and rebuilt cameras and do restauration of cameras... as long as it is something mechanical I think they could rebuilt some parts... depends on what it is and certainly on the price.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The issue I'm thinking about is that MFDB makers need to have MF-bodies to put their MFDBs on. Regarding the Hy 6 I was never really optimistic. Rollei has failed but the production was bought out by their employees. I guess that everyone had some sympathy for 'FH'  but their marketplace was not really rosy. One of the reason is that MFDB-s went 645 while the Hy6 stayed 6x6. It has some advantages but the system is really built for film and not for sensors.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that its's probably the MFDB side where the money is, but to be able to sell the MFDBs the vendors also need camera kits, including both camera bodies and lenses. The lens designs probably need some upgrades to keep up with ever grooving sensor resolution. Hasselblad really has taken the consequences, designing their own lenses. (The optics are built by Fujinon as far as I understand, but both lens construction and final assembly is done in Gothenburg as far as I know. If you compare available MTF data I think there can be very little doubt that essentially all new HC lenses are vastly superior to the old Zeiss designs).

The question on my mind if Phase/Mamya/Leaf have the resources to keep up in the competition? I hope they do, and have not seen any development indicating that they can't, but the jury is probably still out on the issue.

The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.

There are of course quite a few MFDB users who put their MFDBs on different specially built 'technical cameras' like the Alpa, Linhof and Silvestri. These users really benefit from the MFDB business but I guess that their numbers are too little to really make a difference in the medium format market. I hope that MF will prosper, but the market needs a critical mass to stay alive and prosper, hopefully it's there!

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

I asked this question of Phase's CEO when I interviewed him by phone yesterday and his answer was that Leaf is one of the oldest company's in the MF back business and has a considerable amount of IP that's worth having and melding with what Phase already has. In combination, their IP covers a lot of ground, and though there's obviously some overlap, there was considerable value at Leaf.

There are also people that are a tremendous asset. There just aren't that many highly experienced engineers in their field with state-of-the-art experience, such as those within Leaf and Phase. To add a few more along with the IP and a competent management staff, unfettered by a large corporation's neglect (my words, not his) is definitely worthwhile; especially for "$19.95".  

Michael

[jing q]

actually I just hope Canon or Nikon foray into the MF business and drags their competitors along.
then we'll see faster development and progress.

like how Apple went into the smartphone business and suddenly, a surge of new, more powerful phones sprang up quickly.
before that the pace of innovation in the cellphone business was a joke...

Hi,

The issue I'm thinking about is that MFDB makers need to have MF-bodies to put their MFDBs on. Regarding the Hy 6 I was never really optimistic. Rollei has failed but the production was bought out by their employees. I guess that everyone had some sympathy for 'FH'  but their marketplace was not really rosy. One of the reason is that MFDB-s went 645 while the Hy6 stayed 6x6. It has some advantages but the system is really built for film and not for sensors.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is that its's probably the MFDB side where the money is, but to be able to sell the MFDBs the vendors also need camera kits, including both camera bodies and lenses. The lens designs probably need some upgrades to keep up with ever grooving sensor resolution. Hasselblad really has taken the consequences, designing their own lenses. (The optics are built by Fujinon as far as I understand, but both lens construction and final assembly is done in Gothenburg as far as I know. If you compare available MTF data I think there can be very little doubt that essentially all new HC lenses are vastly superior to the old Zeiss designs).

The question on my mind if Phase/Mamya/Leaf have the resources to keep up in the competition? I hope they do, and have not seen any development indicating that they can't, but the jury is probably still out on the issue.

The idea that DSLR makers (Canon, Nikon, Sony and others) would go into the MFDB business does not make sense to me. There is probably some intellectual property that may be of interest, but these are fundamentally different businesses, IMHO.

There are of course quite a few MFDB users who put their MFDBs on different specially built 'technical cameras' like the Alpa, Linhof and Silvestri. These users really benefit from the MFDB business but I guess that their numbers are too little to really make a difference in the medium format market. I hope that MF will prosper, but the market needs a critical mass to stay alive and prosper, hopefully it's there!

Best regards
Erik Kaffehr

[Boris_Epix]

Why should Canon, Nikon or Sony try to get into the MFDB Game? The quantities are way to low to be of interest for them. Companies are in the business for profits... not to make artists happy.

This is complete bullshit and wishful thinking.

Canon and Nikon (Sony even more so) have a completely different business model than MFDB companies.

It's quantities not quality (in the sense of best possible pictures).
They are not trying to give you THE BEST EQUIPMENT POSSIBLE. They give you whatever they can get away with at the moment. Incremental upgrades. Give you a reason to upgrade every 2 years. Because the DSLR's are kinda affordable the manufacturers don't need to provide upgrade paths - the customer simply unloads old equipment to pop and mom on Ebay. Eventually the equipment is defective and thrown away. Product lifecycle starts again.

With MFDB it's different. These are significant investments so you can't just unload it simply on Ebay after two years. That's why they offered upgrade paths so they could keep their overpriced strategy running. But obviously the user base is going south so the business model stopped working. Now suddenly Hasselblad is lowering prices to broaden the user base. But honestly... it might be too late for that. The difference in quality between DSLR's and MFDB's is getting smaller every 6 months and with features it's a waste of time to even start comparing. Customers are so much more demanding, productions need to be cheaper, more pictures delivered. Semi-pros and interns at ad agencies eat away low-end work. Margins for commercial work are getting smaller because of all the additional competition.

So in the end what counts for the professional photographer is to get as fast as possible to a pleasing picture without 10 hours of retouching and RAW converter fiddling.


Some quick simple COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL math:

What's better. Selling 3.3 Million Nikon DSLRs and making 100 $ profit per piece or
selling 5'000 MFDB's and making 5000$ profit a piece?

It would be 330 Million $ compared to 25 Million $.

I'm sure someone could get accurate figures from the Investor Relations sections.
http://nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm

But the point is: If only a couple thousand MFDB shooters are getting pissed with the MFDB game and DSLR's are suddenly good enough for them it's byebye MFDB. Half the users is not half the profit. Economy of scale comes into play. If you buy in smaller quantities the price is higher.

How big is the ENTIRE MFDB market today? Maybe 10,000 pieces a year?

[AlDoori]

maybe also at Wiese-Fototechnik - http://www.wiese-fototechnik.de/
He's official service partner of F&H incl. Rollei 6008AF and Hy6. I guess he can service lenses as well.

i can not find rollei on the wiese site.
wiese seems to have a soft spot for kiev 6x6 etc though.

in any way, the Hy6 would have needed a stronger dealer network.
as a side note, alpa of switzerland seems to rely on a weak network too, at least in germany:
www.monochrom.com , www.photouniversal.de , www.greiner-photo.de

the 6x6 format was not at all a disadvantage of the Hy6 (or the 6oo8): in combination with the rotating adapter /sensor it allows to use the waist level finder.
the same is true for the RZ of course.

i do not see a problem with the wide angles. there always was a 40 mm angulon wide enough for most needs.
to go wider for land- or city scape, there was a seamless lens adaption to alpa.

[tho_mas]

i can not find rollei on the wiese site.

I think you can't find anything on that site as it is so ugly designed you can't look at it :-)

I remember this message:
german: http://photoscala.de/Artikel/FH-in-HH
google translation: http://tinyurl.com/n94hyx

[AlDoori]

I think you can't find anything on that site as it is so ugly designed you can't look at it :-)

this looks like a serious problem of the F+H/Rollei distributor network, no?

[tho_mas]

this looks like a serious problem of the F+H/Rollei distributor network, no?

maybe  

[FlashDB]

So, what's the new name going to be?

Pheaf

Lase

Phameaf

Lephamiya

Lease

Lease One  

/FlashDB

[tho_mas]

Lease One

  my idea was "leave 1" but yours is much better!