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Author Topic: Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS  (Read 7845 times)

bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« on: June 17, 2009, 11:38:43 am »

Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has hands on experience with 200/2 with the mark II 1.4x TC compared to the 300/2.8 IS? I owned the 300/2.8 for several years before switching to medium format. Now that I'm on my way back, I'm comparing these two options and would love to hear from folks with experience with the 200/2 + 1,4x TC II.

Thanks, in advance,
-Brad
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stever

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2009, 12:28:49 pm »

i think this somewhat depends on the camera

on the one hand, my 5D2 doesn't seem to like converters too well even on good primes (of which the 200 2.8 definitely is), on the other, the micro-adjust in the 5D2 is very useful in remembering tele-converter combinations - my 1.4x, 1.4xII, and 2x all introduce significant focus shift

although the 200 with 1.4x is a good, useable combination (i carry it as a tele backup and where a white tele is both too heavy and obvious) - and noticeably better than either 70-200+ 1.4x, it not only does not come close to the 300 2.8, it is not nearly as sharp as the 300 f4

the 200 is a great lens on it's own, but with a converter it doesn't do justice to a high resolution camera (the converter also introduces some pretty serious barrel distortion)
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bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2009, 03:34:03 pm »

You mention the 200 2.8...  Are you talking about the EF 200/2.8 USM II?  (I'm referring to the 200/2.0 IS USM.)

I think you're right, the 200/2.8 + 1.4x would not be a match for the 300/2.8 IS.  But the 200 f/2.0 might be...  Any opinions?

Interesting, your idea of the teleconverter falling down on high resolution cameras.  Do you truly feel it's the TC, or are you seeing the limits of the original lens when the TC magnifies its image?

As for the camera, I'd likely be using this on a 5D Mark II for the time being followed by a 1DsMark IV (possibly 28-30Mpxls).

Thanks, Steve,
-Brad

Quote from: stever
i think this somewhat depends on the camera

on the one hand, my 5D2 doesn't seem to like converters too well even on good primes (of which the 200 2.8 definitely is), on the other, the micro-adjust in the 5D2 is very useful in remembering tele-converter combinations - my 1.4x, 1.4xII, and 2x all introduce significant focus shift

although the 200 with 1.4x is a good, useable combination (i carry it as a tele backup and where a white tele is both too heavy and obvious) - and noticeably better than either 70-200+ 1.4x, it not only does not come close to the 300 2.8, it is not nearly as sharp as the 300 f4

the 200 is a great lens on it's own, but with a converter it doesn't do justice to a high resolution camera (the converter also introduces some pretty serious barrel distortion)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 03:37:01 pm by bradleygibson »
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stever

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2009, 05:22:43 pm »

sorry, wasn't paying attention and i have no experience with the 200 f2

i definitely think the issue is the teleconverter - with the 200 2.8 (for example, but othe lenses followed the same pattern) resolution with the 5D2 was about 30% better than the 5D (and better than the 100 macro - don't have a 135 f2 using imatest) and the 5D was similarly better than the 40D.  Stopped down to f5.6, the 200 has excellent edge sharpness.  the 1.4x reduced center sharpness by about 30% and edge sharpness by 50%.  this much worse than the 12-15% reduction i've expected (but not really documented in the past).  The 200 2.8 is good enough to begin with that even 30% loss of resolution is tolerable on 13x19 and maybe even 17x25 prints -- if you're not fussy about the edges.

before making a big investment in a teleconverter-lens combination i'd recommend renting it and a benchmark like the 300 2.8 from lensrentals.com and doing some tests and trials on representative subjects

my conclusion so far is that the teleconverter is useful as a backup and when you just can't get the reach with your prime (at least in the center i've found the teleconverter to always be better than a crop to equivalent size - but not as much better as i'd like), but not a good solution if you want to make big prints
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bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2009, 06:10:55 pm »

Hi, Steve,

Subjectively, I hadn't found the 1.4x to be too bad, but I wasn't using it on a high resolution camera, back in the day (8Mpxl 1D Mark II).

I have access to a friend's 300/2.8 and 1.4x TC (I sold mine), and will have to find a way to rent the 200/2 to run some objective comparisons to see how much the TC might be letting me down.

For objective testing, do you recommend ImaTest?

Thanks, Steve--this is helpful.

If anyone has a sample image from a 200/2 + 1.4x (ideally an outdoor shot, but I'll take what's available), I'd  appreciate being able to take a look at the original or raw file.

Best regards,
-Brad

Quote from: stever
sorry, wasn't paying attention and i have no experience with the 200 f2

i definitely think the issue is the teleconverter - with the 200 2.8 (for example, but othe lenses followed the same pattern) resolution with the 5D2 was about 30% better than the 5D (and better than the 100 macro - don't have a 135 f2 using imatest) and the 5D was similarly better than the 40D.  Stopped down to f5.6, the 200 has excellent edge sharpness.  the 1.4x reduced center sharpness by about 30% and edge sharpness by 50%.  this much worse than the 12-15% reduction i've expected (but not really documented in the past).  The 200 2.8 is good enough to begin with that even 30% loss of resolution is tolerable on 13x19 and maybe even 17x25 prints -- if you're not fussy about the edges.

before making a big investment in a teleconverter-lens combination i'd recommend renting it and a benchmark like the 300 2.8 from lensrentals.com and doing some tests and trials on representative subjects

my conclusion so far is that the teleconverter is useful as a backup and when you just can't get the reach with your prime (at least in the center i've found the teleconverter to always be better than a crop to equivalent size - but not as much better as i'd like), but not a good solution if you want to make big prints
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 09:04:02 pm by bradleygibson »
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stever

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2009, 11:32:13 pm »

Imatest - yes and no

After some research i couldn't find any other alternatives that seemed reasonable and bought Imatest and the SFRplus target for something north of $500 as a potentially "simple" solution to some objective results.  The Imatest program and "documentation" are sort of a test solution to all things optical and it's up to the user to figure out what to do with it.  I spent on the order of 40 hours testing and figuring out how the software worked before getting meaningful results.

Once on top of the learning curve the results for comparing lenses and bodies are very useful.  but the resolution results are comparative (my results are similar to those of DP Review, but much lower than Photozone).  Lighting is an important factor and i should probably invest in some lighting as well, but haven't.  Because of camera to subject distance and lighting, testing long lenses is a challenge and i need multiple images to get a reasonable level of confidence.

I've used the results to select lenses, figure out which camera/lens combinations are most useful, refine technique, and determine if a lens is performing as it should and if it improved on repair (but you can only do this after developing your test/information base)

If you're going to invest a substantial amount of money in cameras and lenses, want the best results you can get, and can afford the time spent on the learning curve, then yes.

I think Imatest is really missing the boat by not offering a comprehensive and simplified package for photographer users.

Converters - 10 years ago on my EOS-3 and much more recently on 20D i thought converters were fine, but since then, the cameras are much closer to the capabilities of the lenses and the bar has been raised in the ability to examine images and make big prints.

One more thought - at f5.6 i'm willing to bet the there's little difference in resolution between the f2 and 2.8 200 with and without the converter.  I'd love to be wrong.

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bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2009, 10:13:55 am »

Thanks for this, Steve--this is really helpful.

I'm not sure I'm going to take the plunge, but you've provided me with great context as I consider it.  DxO has a package for evaluation as well, but it runs in the $20K range I believe... So I suppose I could give up some convenience for a discount of $19500....

In the end though, I'm not sure how much difference the results will make in what I purchase.  It could have an impact on the 200 vs 300 question, but otherwise, I've owned, used or at least seen the results from all the other lenses I plan to purchase, and am reasonably well satisfied.  I'm always curious and interested in learning more, though, so this is definitely interesting.

Much appreciated,
-Brad

P.S.  Still looking for any pointers folks can provide to sample images of a 200/2 + 1.4x TC.
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GiorgioNiro

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2009, 07:41:06 pm »

Hey Brad,

I am a fan of the 200L f2 and the TC 1.4, I think they make a very useful and effective alternative to the 300L 2.8. I have also had experience with the Nikon 200VR and 300 2.8 lenses along with the TC 1.4.

I like to shoot my lenses relatively open opting for f2.5 with the 200 mm lenses most of the time, I like the look.  You just cant do that with a 300 prime, the one negative is the premium price of the 200L.

If the price of the 200L is a factor, I can tell you that the older version 200L F1.8 is a remarkable/superb substitute!

Good luck,

200L in action,
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 11:14:28 am by GiorgioNiro »
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bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2009, 09:09:21 pm »

Hi, Giorgio,

Wow, gorgeous cover, congrats!

Have you ever shot the 300 and compared the results vs. the 200+1.4 in your work?

-Brad

Quote from: GiorgioNiro
Hey Brad,

I am a fan of the 200L f2 and the TC 1.4, I think they make a very useful and effective alternative to the 300L 2.8. I have also had experience with the Nikon 200VR and 300 2.8 lenses along with the TC 1.4.

I like to shoot my lenses relatively open opting for f2.5 with the 200 mm lenses most of the time, I like the look.  You just cant do that with a 300 prime, the one negative is the premium price of the 200L.

If the price of the 200L is a factor, I can tell you that the older version 200L F1.8 is a remarkable/superb substitute!

Good luck,

200L in action,
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bradleygibson

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Canon EF 200/2 + 1.4x II vs 300/2.8 IS
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2009, 09:09:50 pm »

Hi, Giorgio,

Wow, gorgeous cover, congrats!

Have you ever shot the 300 and compared the results vs. the 200+1.4 in your work?

-Brad
« Last Edit: June 25, 2009, 09:10:10 pm by bradleygibson »
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