Flash Photography and its effect on pacemakers?

[tived]

Hi guys,

one of my very good friends here, have just had a heart attack and have been fitted with a pacemake/defib for his heart.

Question. would firing studio flashes, interfere with a pacemaker?

I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum, please let me know and I will move it.

kindest regards

Henrik

[Thomas Krüger]

Testing the new Pocketwizard there are reports about strong RF noise from a few Canon flashes, including the popular 580EX II, 580EX and 430EX.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_p...d=7-10039-10081
http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/range/

[tived]

Testing the new Pocketwizard there are reports about strong RF noise from a few Canon flashes, including the popular 580EX II, 580EX and 430EX.
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_p...d=7-10039-10081
http://www.pocketwizard.com/inspirations/technology/range/

Thanks Thomas,

Do you know if studio lights will interfere with a heart pacemaker, not the camera "pacemaker"?

thanks

Henrik

[Gary Brown]

Judging from this list of device that may (and won't) interfere with pacemakers, it seems unlikely that flashes are an issue. Although it doesn't explicitly mention flashes, it seems likely they would have been listed if they were a problem. And I'd think it would be a well-known complaint of photographers themselves, if they had to stop using any particular photographic equipment after having a pacemaker implanted.

[Geoff Wittig]

Hi guys,

one of my very good friends here, have just had a heart attack and have been fitted with a pacemake/defib for his heart.

Question. would firing studio flashes, interfere with a pacemaker?

I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum, please let me know and I will move it.

kindest regards

Henrik

The real issue with pacemakers (and pacer-defibrillators) is magnetic interference. Their settings are adjusted using a magnetic gadget over the pacer box, and any strong magnetic field can mess with them. Extremely powerful magnetic fields can actually induce current flow in the pacer wires, which is why MRI scans are forbidden. Studio flash and wireless triggers by themselves should be safe, but you never know how well or how poorly shielded the cables are from the power generator to the flash head. He (or she?) probably shouldn't be near the generators or flash heads when they discharge. But handling a camera with studio flash elsewhere in the room shouldn't be a problem.

[tived]

The real issue with pacemakers (and pacer-defibrillators) is magnetic interference. Their settings are adjusted using a magnetic gadget over the pacer box, and any strong magnetic field can mess with them. Extremely powerful magnetic fields can actually induce current flow in the pacer wires, which is why MRI scans are forbidden. Studio flash and wireless triggers by themselves should be safe, but you never know how well or how poorly shielded the cables are from the power generator to the flash head. He (or she?) probably shouldn't be near the generators or flash heads when they discharge. But handling a camera with studio flash elsewhere in the room shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks guys,

we have a really small studio and we have about 4 flash heads, Elinchrom, ranging from 250 to 1200, my friend is a portrait photographer, so this is where he makes his daily bread. Things are happening really fast, and I want to make sure that when he has recovered, he is able to continue and if we need to make any modifications to the studio, then we will.

alternative, we could make it an available lights only :-)

Thanks to you all, it has given me something to work with.

regards

Henrik

[cyberean]

Extremely powerful magnetic fields can actually induce current flow in the pacer wires, which is why MRI scans are forbidden.

MRI Compatible Pacemakers are Now Availablle in India

[Robert Spoecker]

Thanks guys,

we have a really small studio and we have about 4 flash heads, Elinchrom, ranging from 250 to 1200, my friend is a portrait photographer, so this is where he makes his daily bread. Things are happening really fast, and I want to make sure that when he has recovered, he is able to continue and if we need to make any modifications to the studio, then we will.

alternative, we could make it an available lights only :-)

Thanks to you all, it has given me something to work with.

regards

Henrik

Wouldn't this be a more appropriate question for his heart surgeon. I do not think I would ask a photographer a heart health related question just as I would never go to a surgeon for photography advice.    

[Geoff Wittig]

Wouldn't this be a more appropriate question for his heart surgeon. I do not think I would ask a photographer a heart health related question just as I would never go to a surgeon for photography advice.    

I'm a family physician in my day job, and I'm reasonably knowledgeable on the subject.

A real live professional opinion would require details about the precise model of pacemaker and leads used, plus some idea of the impedance/magnetic field strength around your particular studio strobes. But I'm willing to bet if you ask the cardiologist who installed your friend's pacemaker about his, he'll scratch his head and promise to get back to you on it, because he won't know for sure.

[tived]

Wouldn't this be a more appropriate question for his heart surgeon. I do not think I would ask a photographer a heart health related question just as I would never go to a surgeon for photography advice.    

Fair question Robert,

It just could be that there was someone here, who has already have been through this. So therefore the question :-)

thanks anyway

Henrik

[tived]

I'm a family physician in my day job, and I'm reasonably knowledgeable on the subject.

A real live professional opinion would require details about the precise model of pacemaker and leads used, plus some idea of the impedance/magnetic field strength around your particular studio strobes. But I'm willing to bet if you ask the cardiologist who installed your friend's pacemaker about his, he'll scratch his head and promise to get back to you on it, because he won't know for sure.

Both his doctors are who did the op, are his very best friends, and are experts in their respective fields but, No you are quite right, thats why the question is coming back to me.

thanks Geoff

Henrik

[DarkPenguin]

Fair question Robert,

It just could be that there was someone here, who has already have been through this. So therefore the question :-)

thanks anyway

Henrik

If it was a problem wouldn't they be dead?

Considering that my canon flashes are capable of setting off their wireless triggers via all the rf leakage I'd actually contact the guy's Dr.

[tived]

If it was a problem wouldn't they be dead?

Considering that my canon flashes are capable of setting off their wireless triggers via all the rf leakage I'd actually contact the guy's Dr.

No, they wouldn't necessary be dead, as they too may have asked the same question somewhere (which I didn't manage to find on google :-) )

It could be that, someone in a similar situation, would have modified the way the operate in the studio...continues light source, using only natural light etc.... who knows, they may have bought shields for their flash units....the list goes on.

Someone else did come up with a solution for the canon flashes, using shields :-) so, if you are experiencing problems.. then look further up in this thread :-)

happy to help

thanks

Henrik

[Geoff Wittig]

If it was a problem wouldn't they be dead?

Pacemakers and pacer/defibrillators are usually programmed to 'default' to a safe mode, something like 60 beats/min. plain vanilla ventricular pacing, if anything messes up their controls. So any interference from studio flash might not cause any symptoms you'd notice. This would only be detected when your cardiologist later 'interrogates' the pacemaker with his computer gadget, and it spells out what happened. Just like the error codes from your car's central computer.

[tived]

Pacemakers and pacer/defibrillators are usually programmed to 'default' to a safe mode, something like 60 beats/min. plain vanilla ventricular pacing, if anything messes up their controls. So any interference from studio flash might not cause any symptoms you'd notice. This would only be detected when your cardiologist later 'interrogates' the pacemaker with his computer gadget, and it spells out what happened. Just like the error codes from your car's central computer.

Thanks Geoff, for your help and insight. funny enough my friends name is also Geoff :-)

I have pretty much concluded that the studio flash's will be ok with caution, but it will be his decision to make if he wishes to use them or not.

thanks

Henrik

[AndyF]

Hi guys,

one of my very good friends here, have just had a heart attack and have been fitted with a pacemake/defib for his heart.

Question. would firing studio flashes, interfere with a pacemaker?

I am sorry if this is in the wrong forum, please let me know and I will move it.

kindest regards

Henrik

If there was a problem, it would most likely relate to whether the wires between the pacemaker and heart picked up enough energy from RF energy radiated by the flash, to either make the pacemaker think the heart was beating abnormally (if the energy was picked up on the sensor wires), or send abnormal pulse(s) to heart, if the flash RF energy was picked up the "stimulation" wires from the pacemaker to the heart.  So there are three factors: what RF energy was the flash generating and was it actually significant, both in energy and frequency, and (if the problem was actually due to electrical interference between the flash and the person), did the problem originate on the input sensor wires to the pacemaker or the output stimulation wires to the heart.

This will depend on mainly the frequency of the flash RF energy since that is in effect the wavelength; the length of the wires; and how the person was oriented with respect to the flash.  The orientation will affect how much of the RF field will be picked up by the wires - perhaps call them antennas since that's what's really involved.  The better the wires matches an integer fraction of the RF energy wavelength, the more will be converted to an electrical pulse.

The only people that could determine if this really is a problem, is the pacemaker manufacturer.  They would need to know the pattern of RF generated by a flash, and the typical direction and length of wiring used when the pacemaker is implanted.  If the RF is low, their legal dept may be comfortable in allowing the statement that no problem exists.  If the problem could reasonably occur - all they'll just stay [edit: say is]  avoid "high energy photographic flash units"!

I think it would be interesting for you to find out from the surgeons who manufactured the pacemaker, and then contact them with the question and find out what they say.  I'd hope they do look into the question and not just give a blanket avoidance of the situation.

In the meantime, wear a stylish copper vest or switch to magnesium powder for your "flash"!  Seriously, I hope this question can be resolved.
Andy

[tived]

If there was a problem, it would most likely relate to whether the wires between the pacemaker and heart picked up enough energy from RF energy radiated by the flash, to either make the pacemaker think the heart was beating abnormally (if the energy was picked up on the sensor wires), or send abnormal pulse(s) to heart, if the flash RF energy was picked up the "stimulation" wires from the pacemaker to the heart.  So there are three factors: what RF energy was the flash generating and was it actually significant, both in energy and frequency, and (if the problem was actually due to electrical interference between the flash and the person), did the problem originate on the input sensor wires to the pacemaker or the output stimulation wires to the heart.

This will depend on mainly the frequency of the flash RF energy since that is in effect the wavelength; the length of the wires; and how the person was oriented with respect to the flash.  The orientation will affect how much of the RF field will be picked up by the wires - perhaps call them antennas since that's what's really involved.  The better the wires matches an integer fraction of the RF energy wavelength, the more will be converted to an electrical pulse.

The only people that could determine if this really is a problem, is the pacemaker manufacturer.  They would need to know the pattern of RF generated by a flash, and the typical direction and length of wiring used when the pacemaker is implanted.  If the RF is low, their legal dept may be comfortable in allowing the statement that no problem exists.  If the problem could reasonably occur - all they'll just stay [edit: say is]  avoid "high energy photographic flash units"!

I think it would be interesting for you to find out from the surgeons who manufactured the pacemaker, and then contact them with the question and find out what they say.  I'd hope they do look into the question and not just give a blanket avoidance of the situation.

In the meantime, wear a stylish copper vest or switch to magnesium powder for your "flash"!  Seriously, I hope this question can be resolved.
Andy

Thanks Andy,

given the surgeon is a good friend, I will ask him, this could indeed be very interesting.

my friend is out of coma now, still got his good sense of humor :-) thank god! ...but the legs are not moving as they should, he has feelings in them, but they are not supporting him - he is a tough fellow and is very positive and I really really hope he can gain back his mobility.

thanks guys

Henrik

[professorgb]

As a long-time pacemaker patient, I can tell you it would take a whole lot more RF interference to alter a pacer's functioning than you will encounter using studio flash heads.  Pacer patients have very few limitations regarding magnetic interference.  You are not allowed to work on a running automobile engine, for example, or use an arc welder.  These things create quite high levels of magnetic interference.  Everyday behaviors, such as using a flash gun or going through airport security, are not a threat to a pacemaker patient's well-being.

A magnetic field of 10 gauss is required to deactivate or alter the functioning of a pacer or implanted electronic defibrillator.  Most magnets or other RF sources are safe if kept at least 6 inches from the device.  Modern pacemakers are particularly well shielded and suffer ill effects only rarely, usually through inadvertent exposure to electrocautery or MRI.  Check out http://www.springerlink.com/content/6706w0430174g154/ for an abstract of a medical study of this issue.

By the way, MRI exposure is a problem for two reasons:  1. The magnetic field is high enough to fry any electronics; 2. the possibility that MRI exposure will cause heating of the leads and thus cardiac damage.