P65+ continuous drive rate

[peegeenyc]

my P65+ arrived last week, and am very impressed with the new buffer and frame rate.
don't know what magic Phase have worked with the 1.3Gb internal buffer and getting that huge amount of info off the sensor, but it works!

it now seems possible to use it on a 'continuous' drive setting on the camera, and get an effective 1fps.
that may not sound much compared to a 35mm dSLR, but its pretty amazing for 60Mp, and noticeably faster than the P45+ I had before - it actually feels like continuous mode now, which it didn't with that - you just don't notice lag caused by the camera waiting for the back anymore. (not sure what the Contax 645 frame rate was with film, but I doubt it was a lot better)

in another attempt I gave up trying to hit the buffer after 35 frames shot continuous (I expect the P40+ is better still, but my work requires the bigger sensor).
how long it takes to write the burst to card is of course dependent on your card. this was a Sandisk Extreme IV 4Gb as supplied by Phase.

here is a video of a single shot, then 20 shot sequence: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKZe7M1h_G0

[amsp]

Nice, there's way too much complaining on this board and not enough talk about the positive. Grats on the P65, I hope you put it to good use

[Graham Mitchell]

I assumed that almost all P65+ users would be shooting landscape, architecture or fine art reproductions etc. Can I ask what you are shooting at 1fps at such high resolution? Just curious.

[Guy Mancuso]

Just to add i have the P30+, P40+ and the P45+ sitting here right now before my workshop next week and the P40+ is smoking fast compared to my P30+ I know not a big difference .8 vs, 1.25 but man I can feel the difference and i like it and that is dangerous. I guess the P21+ owners would know this feeling since it does .8 as well.


Graham not sure i would assume anything with the P65+ as far as use. I can tell you even after a day the P40+ can get about anything done. This is a fast all around back and a nice size file to boot

[narikin]

that's great - a film Leica with manual wind is about that frame rate, so I'd say anything you did historically with a Leica (shutter noise aside) you can now do at 60mp.

the P40+ at 40mp must be even better for this, 2/3 the file size. for half the cost
if Phase-Mamiya were to design a camera around the P40+, like a ZD2, it would be SO fast, and new areas of photography open up: 4x5" quality at ~1.4fps autofocus on the fly, anyone?

[Doug Peterson]

if Phase-Mamiya were to design a camera around the P40+, like a ZD2, it would be SO fast, and new areas of photography open up: 4x5" quality at ~1.4fps autofocus on the fly, anyone?

How would this be different than the Phase One 645 AF, Phase 80mm, Phase One P40+ bundle they already offer? The only difference I can think of is that the ZD Camera doesn't allow you to remove the back. One of the best attributes of the 40+ is that it is fast and versatile like the 30+ but can be used on a tech/view camera. In this regard I would never want them to remove the ability to physically de-couple the back from the body.

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[Graham Mitchell]

that's great - a film Leica with manual wind is about that frame rate, so I'd say anything you did historically with a Leica (shutter noise aside) you can now do at 60mp.

the P40+ at 40mp must be even better for this, 2/3 the file size. for half the cost
if Phase-Mamiya were to design a camera around the P40+, like a ZD2, it would be SO fast, and new areas of photography open up: 4x5" quality at ~1.4fps autofocus on the fly, anyone?

Sorry to burst your bubble but other brands/backs have offered as fast or faster frame rates than this a year or two ago.

[narikin]

How would this be different than the Phase One 645 AF, Phase 80mm, Phase One P40+ bundle they already offer? The only difference I can think of is that the ZD Camera doesn't allow you to remove the back. One of the best attributes of the 40+ is that it is fast and versatile like the 30+ but can be used on a tech/view camera. In this regard I would never want them to remove the ability to physically de-couple the back from the body.

a no-mirror box design with the P40+ back - like a digital Mamiya 7 - would be better, or a more interesting variant, I agree.
if it was a ZD type, then it provides a different style of camera - a lot of folks (me included) prefer an vertical (Leica/ Mamiya 7 type) camera body to the MF-Bazooka type (Hassleblad, Mamiya 645, Contax 645).

Mamiya obviously agreed, otherwise why would they release a digital ZD and the digital 645?

what the marketplace needs right now is choice in camera body types. as essentially we only have two in digital: pro 35mm dSLR's and MF bazooka dSLR's, which is very restrictive for all of us.

[antonyoung]

Just thought I'd jump in because I just bought a couple P40+'s and I'm still a bit pissed about it. These backs do not, repeat do not, do 1.2 frames per second on any autofocus camera body. With an H body or and AFD III/Phase body, you can get 58 or 59 frames in 60 seconds, when set to IIQ Small and shooting to an Extreme IV card.

Worse than this, with an AFDII body, the P40+ only does around 42 frames in a minute. Why that is I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation of. I don't have a film back to test, but I'm pretty sure the camera itself is capable of a faster frame rate than that. Also, there is some problem with the P40+ which does not allow the Continuous drive setting on the AFDII bodies to be used.

The AFDII body is the only Mamiya body that allows the autofocus to be decoupled from the shutter release and put on the back button, so the requirement to use a Phase/AFDIII body to get a decent capture rate is a deal breaker for me, and I'm in the process of swapping the Mamiya mount P40+ out to another H mount. Phase has missed another chance for me to try and get photographers to use their camera. I've been screaming to anybody who will listen for a year about the need for a separate autofocus button on the Phase body to no avail. The Contax has it, the H has it, the Canon has it, even the AFDII has it, but there's no way to do it with the Phase body.

Apparently the only situation that will allow the P40+ to shoot at the advertised 1.2 frames per second is with a 555ELD, with the mirror locked up, at least that's what I'm told they used to get their results that they advertise with the little disclaimer underneath that different camera platforms will vary. Could somebody from Phase please please please explain to me a situation where the combination of the mirror locked up and 1.2 frames per second would be useful? I'd love to hear it, I really would. One frame a second on a 40MP back is respectable, they should just advertise it as that.

And in response to the original poster, I see your first frame at :04 and your last at :33, which is 20 frames in 29 seconds. I suspect if you set a timer and let it crank for 60 seconds you'll get about 40 frames, which again is very respectable, especially for a 60MP back, but is not the 1 frame per second that Phase is advertising.

[James R Russell]

Just thought I'd jump in because I just bought a couple P40+'s and I'm still a bit pissed

Anton,

Feel your pain.

The thing I dislike the most about nearly all mfd is the responsivness and the continuous shooting.

If I take my Contax, load a roll of film it will shoot 1.6 FPS (at least that's what was in the Specs), but I know that it goes, click, click, click, click.

If I use the P30+ on small setting it goes click . . . . pause. . . . click.

If I use the p21+ on small setting it goes click..pau..click..pau..click.  Much, much faster in the real world,  but not click, click, click.

Both backs are a lot faster if I shoot on manual focus rather than afd, or use the back button to hit focus then shoot.   For some reason mfd afd seems to always slow everything up to a crawl.

Of course any iso past 200 shows a lot more chroma noise on small than large.

I kind of don't get it, but I do know that unless you just shoot slow, your always working in a mode of anticipation, rather than reaction and a lot of great images are missed.

I can explain for hours why today it's important to have a faster continuous shooting rate but that's for another time

I remember Yair did a test with the Leaf S backs on an AFI that went click, click, click, but that was with the mirror up.

JR

[narikin]

And in response to the original poster, I see your first frame at :04 and your last at :33, which is 20 frames in 29 seconds. I suspect if you set a timer and let it crank for 60 seconds you'll get about 40 frames, which again is very respectable, especially for a 60MP back, but is not the 1 frame per second that Phase is advertising.

you are confusing the initial single frame with the first burst frame.:
the first frame of the 20 frame burst is at 0.08/9 and the last is at 0.31-ish so that's about 22/23secs for 20 x60Mp frames, clearly with no mirror lock up, so... that's pretty damn great to me.

[mcfoto]

Just thought I'd jump in because I just bought a couple P40+'s and I'm still a bit pissed about it. These backs do not, repeat do not, do 1.2 frames per second on any autofocus camera body. With an H body or and AFD III/Phase body, you can get 58 or 59 frames in 60 seconds, when set to IIQ Small and shooting to an Extreme IV card.

Worse than this, with an AFDII body, the P40+ only does around 42 frames in a minute. Why that is I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation of. I don't have a film back to test, but I'm pretty sure the camera itself is capable of a faster frame rate than that. Also, there is some problem with the P40+ which does not allow the Continuous drive setting on the AFDII bodies to be used.

The AFDII body is the only Mamiya body that allows the autofocus to be decoupled from the shutter release and put on the back button, so the requirement to use a Phase/AFDIII body to get a decent capture rate is a deal breaker for me, and I'm in the process of swapping the Mamiya mount P40+ out to another H mount. Phase has missed another chance for me to try and get photographers to use their camera. I've been screaming to anybody who will listen for a year about the need for a separate autofocus button on the Phase body to no avail. The Contax has it, the H has it, the Canon has it, even the AFDII has it, but there's no way to do it with the Phase body.

Apparently the only situation that will allow the P40+ to shoot at the advertised 1.2 frames per second is with a 555ELD, with the mirror locked up, at least that's what I'm told they used to get their results that they advertise with the little disclaimer underneath that different camera platforms will vary. Could somebody from Phase please please please explain to me a situation where the combination of the mirror locked up and 1.2 frames per second would be useful? I'd love to hear it, I really would. One frame a second on a 40MP back is respectable, they should just advertise it as that.

And in response to the original poster, I see your first frame at :04 and your last at :33, which is 20 frames in 29 seconds. I suspect if you set a timer and let it crank for 60 seconds you'll get about 40 frames, which again is very respectable, especially for a 60MP back, but is not the 1 frame per second that Phase is advertising.

Hi
Lets hope the heads of Phase/Mamiya HEAR THIS about the AFDIII re not being able to separate the focus from the shutter. WHY did they take it away even the ZD camera has it??? Next question does the latest DF body have it? I will be doing a test shoot with the P65+ this week, looking forward to it.
Denis

[antonyoung]

you are confusing the initial single frame with the first burst frame.:
the first frame of the 20 frame burst is at 0.08/9 and the last is at 0.31-ish so that's about 22/23secs for 20 x60Mp frames, clearly with no mirror lock up, so... that's pretty damn great to me.

I'm not confusing anything. Listen, I'm not a hater, I own a lot of Phase backs. The new backs are significantly faster than the older models, but they are not as fast as Phase is claiming, in fact in the case of the P40+, Phase is claiming 20% faster capture rate than is actually possible in any useful real world situation. Lock the cameras down for 60 seconds and look at the capture counter at the end of that time.  I haven't tested the P65+, but the P40+ does just under 60 frames in a minute. That's great, it's just not the 72 frames that "1.2 frames/second" would be, and I don't see why they would advertise that figure.

[peegeenyc]

sorry of some people are disappointed with Phase's numbers versus real world.
I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting - 20 shots in about 23 seconds with the P65+, regardless of any advertised claims up or down.

[heinrichvoelkel]

sorry of some people are disappointed with Phase's numbers versus real world.
I'm pretty happy with what I'm getting - 20 shots in about 23 seconds with the P65+, regardless of any advertised claims up or down.

@peegeenyc             What do you shoot so fast and in this resolution? Curious?

[Jack Flesher]

Just thought I'd jump in because I just bought a couple P40+'s and I'm still a bit pissed about it. These backs do not, repeat do not, do 1.2 frames per second on any autofocus camera body. With an H body or and AFD III/Phase body, you can get 58 or 59 frames in 60 seconds, when set to IIQ Small and shooting to an Extreme IV card.

Worse than this, with an AFDII body, the P40+ only does around 42 frames in a minute. Why that is I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation of.

Not sure this will help explain, but having owned an AFD1, AFD2 and two different AFD3 bodies with differing firmwares, I can tell you that they get progressively faster -- and notably so.  And in the AFD3, firmware 1.4 and later is again notably faster still than anything earlier.  Which firmware do you currently have in your AFD3 body?  If under 1.4, I'd suggest sending it in for an update.

Best,

[MichaelAlanBielat]

@peegeenyc             What do you shoot so fast and in this resolution? Curious?

Good question...

A good snap is a good snap whether it is taken with a 1fps camera or a 10fps one... I'm not sure that the fps is really a deal breaker when you are talking 29 shots in 30 seconds or 27.34 in 30 seconds.

I think we're getting a little too technical here. Just my opinion.

[Guy Mancuso]

I have sitting in front of me a P40+ with a AFDIII with 1.5 firmware in it. Want me to try something let me know . I also have a P30+ and P45+ sitting here as well. The P40+ is flying over the other ones by a mile from my POV. I own the P30+ and I am really liking the speed of the P40+.

[antonyoung]

Not sure this will help explain, but having owned an AFD1, AFD2 and two different AFD3 bodies with differing firmwares, I can tell you that they get progressively faster -- and notably so.  And in the AFD3, firmware 1.4 and later is again notably faster still than anything earlier.  Which firmware do you currently have in your AFD3 body?  If under 1.4, I'd suggest sending it in for an update.

Best,

I don't have an AFD3 body because unless they can get the autofocus off of the shutter release it's of no use to me. So I took delivery on a P40+ in a Mamiya mount that on the AFD2 is only as fast as the P30+ on the H mount. Coupled with the P30+'s noticeably better high ISO performance meant it makes no sense for me to keep the Mamiya mount P40+, so I swapped it for H, where at least I can get the faster capture rate. If Phamiya ever gets it together to get me an autofocus button in the back, then I'll think about getting one of their bodies and a P40+ in the Mamiya mount again. The tests with the Phase body were done with a dealer's gear.

[antonyoung]

Good question...

A good snap is a good snap whether it is taken with a 1fps camera or a 10fps one... I'm not sure that the fps is really a deal breaker when you are talking 29 shots in 30 seconds or 27.34 in 30 seconds.

I think we're getting a little too technical here. Just my opinion.

Agreed in part. Atget shot way better photographs than I probably ever will, and did it with wet plate. Winnogrand captured a moments that I never would have been able to, and did it without autofocus or a motor drive. So point taken there.

But drop forty grand and little things start to take on greater weight than if you're just sitting around on your computer theorizing. To use the way overused analogy, imagine if I dropped forty grand on a new car with an advertised top speed of 120mph. When I test it I can only get it to go to 100mph, and then I find out that the manufacturer's 20% faster test results were down the side of a mountain with racing slicks on and a 50mph tailwind. You're arguing "well, 100mph should be enough for anybody, and besides the speed limit is 55mph". Having spent my forty grand, I'm saying that yes, 100mph is pretty respectable, but if that's all it will do in the real world, then that's all it should be advertised as doing.

It's not an unreasonable assumption that having an autofocus body that's capable of I believe 1.8 or 2fps, as I'm pretty sure the H cameras and the Phase bodies are, and then putting a "1.2fps" back on them, you should be able to achieve 1.2fps. Phase knows this, and knows people will make that assumption. That's why they claim 1.2fps and then disclaim it with "Results are based on testing in Phase One’s testing department. Variation may be expected due to specific camera set up." That's good for sales, everybody assumes that the variation is with some other guy's setup, not their own. If instead they disclaimed it with "1.2fps only achievable on Hasselblad 555ELD bodies which do not receive communication from the back, and then only with the mirror locked up", which is in fact the case, that would not be good for sales. It's disingenuous on Phase's part and deliberately misleading. As a customer, I'm calling them out on it. The datasheet and the advertising should be changed.