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Author Topic: Photokit Sharperner and CS4 Help  (Read 6597 times)

davewolfs

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Photokit Sharperner and CS4 Help
« on: June 13, 2009, 08:11:23 pm »

Hey everyone,

Have any of you noticed that when merging all visible layers in Photoshop or flattening an image after using capture sharpening with Photokit Sharpener the results change.  It's as though not all steps that were done by the plugin are being preserved.  Is it possible that I am doing something wrong?

Thanks,

Dave
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Jonathan Ratzlaff

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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2009, 01:30:11 pm »

If you merge the layers on to a new layer do you get the same effect? Maybe it is the order in which the layers are flattened. Persononaly I don't flatten images, as that makes for irreversible changes and if I want something for output, I will merge everything to a new layer.
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Schewe

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« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2009, 11:13:19 pm »

Quote from: davewolfs
Have any of you noticed that when merging all visible layers in Photoshop or flattening an image after using capture sharpening with Photokit Sharpener the results change.


There are two issues here; first, if you are viewing your image at less than 100% zoom in Photoshop, any change in layers (flattening, opacity adjustments, etc.) are not truly accurate at those non-1:1 viewing zooms. In Photoshop CS4 with OPenGL GPU viewing if dithered using bilinear but if you don' have the GPU (or are using an earlier version) the dither is done using nearest neighbor for the dithering. What that means is that in particularly high frequency textual detail will look a lot different at 100% zoom and downsampled to smaller screen views. This applies to flattening in particular...

The other issue is that when you merge visible layers, if you take the capture or output sharpening layers and simply merge just those layers you will not get an accurate merge because of the nature of the way Photoshop merges layers. In order to get an accurate merge you actually need a complete copy of all visible layers inside of the merged layer group otherwise you'll get an inaccurate merged result. This has been a Photoshop "issue" since layers have been around. The problem being that the result of full stacks of layers depend upon the total layer count and blending modes and opacities.

So, you'll need to explain very carefully what it is that you think you are seeing.
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davewolfs

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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2009, 01:46:15 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
There are two issues here; first, if you are viewing your image at less than 100% zoom in Photoshop, any change in layers (flattening, opacity adjustments, etc.) are not truly accurate at those non-1:1 viewing zooms. In Photoshop CS4 with OPenGL GPU viewing if dithered using bilinear but if you don' have the GPU (or are using an earlier version) the dither is done using nearest neighbor for the dithering. What that means is that in particularly high frequency textual detail will look a lot different at 100% zoom and downsampled to smaller screen views. This applies to flattening in particular...

The other issue is that when you merge visible layers, if you take the capture or output sharpening layers and simply merge just those layers you will not get an accurate merge because of the nature of the way Photoshop merges layers. In order to get an accurate merge you actually need a complete copy of all visible layers inside of the merged layer group otherwise you'll get an inaccurate merged result. This has been a Photoshop "issue" since layers have been around. The problem being that the result of full stacks of layers depend upon the total layer count and blending modes and opacities.

So, you'll need to explain very carefully what it is that you think you are seeing.

It's difficult to explain  

Let me try another example and this is where it also stems from.  I discovered this while using one of your techniques prior to printing while soft proofing.  Everything looks wonderful just how I've prepared things to look.

Lets say my top layer is a curves or layers adjustment.  And while soft proofing, I notice that my blacks are not where I want them to be anymore.  So I employ your technique where I select a color range of black with a fuzziness of 25.   In order to properly select the color range and create the new layer I have to ctrl-alt-shift-e all visible layers to a new layer so that I can select from this layer before I ctrl-j my selection to a new layer where I change the display mode of this layer to multiply.

So what I am noticing is that when I ctrl-alt-shft-e to create my new layer of all visible layers, something is changing.

Take this example.



Notice the highlights in the in the tips of the trees, these highlights were exemplified through the capture sharpening process and whatever modifications I may have made, when I merged all visible it was as though some of these steps were not being captured into the newly merged layer (or so it seemed when viewing at say 25%).  If I enabled/disabled the visibility of the newly merged layer what I am seeing will actually change.  It's as described above, some of my edits are not being captured into this copy of all visible layer.

If you need me to clarify on any of these steps just let me know.

Dave

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Schewe

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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2009, 02:27:41 pm »

Again, what happens when you view at 100% (1 image pixel per 1 screen pixel).

Anything you view at less than 1:1 is not accurate...
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davewolfs

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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2009, 02:46:47 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Again, what happens when you view at 100% (1 image pixel per 1 screen pixel).

Anything you view at less than 1:1 is not accurate...

Nothing happens, there are no changes when turning the merged layer on or off and viewing at 100%.

So what is the proper way of performing an edit that needs to work on a background like layer since what you are viewing is potentially not how your image actually looks?  Or is there a work around for this.

Thanks again,

Dave
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 02:47:21 pm by davewolfs »
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Schewe

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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2009, 05:30:03 pm »

Quote from: davewolfs
So what is the proper way of performing an edit that needs to work on a background like layer since what you are viewing is potentially not how your image actually looks?  Or is there a work around for this.


Welcome to the world of editing high resolution images on low resolution displays. It's something you need to train yourself to deal with. You don't say if you are running CS4 with GPU enabled...it helps a bit.
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davewolfs

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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2009, 11:34:27 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Welcome to the world of editing high resolution images on low resolution displays. It's something you need to train yourself to deal with. You don't say if you are running CS4 with GPU enabled...it helps a bit.

Oh come on now Schewe, GPU is enabled, display is an expensive 8 bit piece of crap with a 12 bit LUT lookup or somethin'

Seriously, give me all the tech talk and tell me why the  screen renders differently when the merged layer apparently contains the same information.

Let me ask you this, if I opened the image with the merged layer existing vs the non merged layer not existing would things look different.  Behind the scenes is some sort of round off error going on here...What the hell is happening
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Schewe

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« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2009, 01:10:30 pm »

Quote from: davewolfs
Oh come on now Schewe, GPU is enabled, display is an expensive 8 bit piece of crap with a 12 bit LUT lookup or somethin'

Seriously, give me all the tech talk and tell me why the  screen renders differently when the merged layer apparently contains the same information.

Your display is about 100 PPI, your image is prolly 300-480 PPI. When you have images at that resolution being downsampled (using bilinear if you have GPU on) Photoshop is doing a fast merge of your layers based on the image cache pyramid based on your cache settings in prefs. If you have it set to anything other that 1 image cache, Photoshop is doing a cached display (which is not accurate) for all your layers at your current screen zoom. When you merge the layers, the cache no longer comes into play regarding the screen merge of all your layers for display. That's why what you see at anything other than 100% is scifi...and based not on real pixels but massively interpolated pixels.

So, that enough tech talk? Bottom line if you want to make an accurate evaluation of your image, you need to view it at 100% zoom. Anything else will be inaccurate...how inaccurate depends on your Photoshop version, whether you have GPU on/off and whether you have caching on.
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davewolfs

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« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2009, 09:10:47 pm »

Quote from: Schewe
Your display is about 100 PPI, your image is prolly 300-480 PPI. When you have images at that resolution being downsampled (using bilinear if you have GPU on) Photoshop is doing a fast merge of your layers based on the image cache pyramid based on your cache settings in prefs. If you have it set to anything other that 1 image cache, Photoshop is doing a cached display (which is not accurate) for all your layers at your current screen zoom. When you merge the layers, the cache no longer comes into play regarding the screen merge of all your layers for display. That's why what you see at anything other than 100% is scifi...and based not on real pixels but massively interpolated pixels.

So, that enough tech talk? Bottom line if you want to make an accurate evaluation of your image, you need to view it at 100% zoom. Anything else will be inaccurate...how inaccurate depends on your Photoshop version, whether you have GPU on/off and whether you have caching on.

That is good on the tech talk and I appreciate it.  You've helped make the stars align

So is it recommended for me to disable the GPU and Cache (Probably not, but is there a happy in between)?  I'm using CS4.
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Schewe

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« Reply #10 on: June 16, 2009, 11:04:26 pm »

Quote from: davewolfs
So is it recommended for me to disable the GPU and Cache


No, use it, it is an improvement over nearest neighbor that you would bet with GPU off. You just need to understand what it is that you are seeing...anything other than 100% is an interpolation with inherent inaccuracies...and YOU have to mentally compensate for what you are seeing...
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2009, 01:13:40 pm »

Or turn off Open GL...  The point is *either* way the output result can be different than the screen view, so you'll want to view at 100% and then maybe 50% or "Print Size" and learn how to interpret that particular set of screen views to actual results.  It's an acquired skill that requires some experience to learn...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 01:14:07 pm by Jack Flesher »
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pegelli

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« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2009, 06:15:40 am »

Jeff,
Another request for some tech talk on Photoshop. Can you explain why Photoshop renders the worst scaled images from all pixel editors I use. (the others are Paint Shop Pro and Picture Window). I really like the maximum flexibility and final results from Photoshop  but I find this quite a drawback. 25 and 50% are semi OK, but any other values (especially the default 33 and 66% when using the magnifying glass) are absolutely horrible compared to the other two programs.
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pieter, aka pegelli

Schewe

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« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2009, 02:18:23 pm »

Quote from: pegelli
Can you explain why Photoshop renders the worst scaled images from all pixel editors I use.


What version? CS4 with GPU turned on renders all zooms pretty well because it's using bilinear interpolation. Without GPU Photoshop CS4 (and all previous versions) uses nearest neighbor interpolation. This is largely done for speed because Ps has to render each layer and resample to rip it to screen.
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pegelli

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« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2009, 03:13:53 am »

Quote from: Schewe
What version?

I still use CS (so PS8). Probably need to upgrade to CS4 then if I want a better scaled view.
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