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Frank Doorhof

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Dillema, need some help
« on: June 08, 2009, 08:24:38 am »

For reasons I don't want on the forum I'm probably switching from my Mamiya body (645AFD/III)

I really want to stay with the Leaf back I'm using so there are not much real options.
So I think I will end up with a H1 or H2 body and the need to convert my Aptus back to fit the Hasselblad and get a convertor to mount the "new" back to the Mamiya RZ67ProII which I will keep using.

At the moment I'm using most :
35mm
55-110mm
105-210mm for portrait work

The questions are simple but for me complicated

1. switching will cost me alot of time/effort and probably money (the first two is not really a problem)
2. Which lenses for the hasselblad system would be good alternatives without breaking the bank at first, I don't mind manual focus on MF.
3. Will the quality compared to the 645 system be better or worse when using the same leaf back.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

at the moment nothing is yet decided but I'm looking into every possibility.
And because here the MF experts are


ps if someone wants to buy my whole mamiya collection please let me know
645 AFD/III newest firmware / 35mm / 80mm 2.8AF / 80mm 1.9MF / 55-110AF / 105-210AF / 120mm macro / Film back / Aptus 22 digital back (saves me the option to convert it)
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 08:26:58 am by Frank Doorhof »
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jing q

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2009, 09:21:09 am »

you can get the 50-110mm for about $2500 and the 35mm $2300 for about the same price, used.
I was in the same boat as you so I sympathise. Best bet is to get the mount changed and get a H1/H2 body of course, the mount change is $2500, an RZ converter is another $500 or $600 probably...ouch once again.
There isn't a long zoom for the hassy, 150 and 210 are about $2000 each yes?

you can get a CF lens adapter but honestly that piece of equipment costs about $1000 which seems excessive...you're better off saving for the lenses you need rather than getting it now and selling it off later and buying a H lens again.

I'll be hard pressed to see how the H lenses are any worse than a mamiya lens. their 35mm is definitely better than the 35mm I have for my mamiya.


Quote from: Frank Doorhof
For reasons I don't want on the forum I'm probably switching from my Mamiya body (645AFD/III)

I really want to stay with the Leaf back I'm using so there are not much real options.
So I think I will end up with a H1 or H2 body and the need to convert my Aptus back to fit the Hasselblad and get a convertor to mount the "new" back to the Mamiya RZ67ProII which I will keep using.

At the moment I'm using most :
35mm
55-110mm
105-210mm for portrait work

The questions are simple but for me complicated

1. switching will cost me alot of time/effort and probably money (the first two is not really a problem)
2. Which lenses for the hasselblad system would be good alternatives without breaking the bank at first, I don't mind manual focus on MF.
3. Will the quality compared to the 645 system be better or worse when using the same leaf back.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

at the moment nothing is yet decided but I'm looking into every possibility.
And because here the MF experts are


ps if someone wants to buy my whole mamiya collection please let me know
645 AFD/III newest firmware / 35mm / 80mm 2.8AF / 80mm 1.9MF / 55-110AF / 105-210AF / 120mm macro / Film back / Aptus 22 digital back (saves me the option to convert it)
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Dustbak

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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2009, 09:44:42 am »

Not for one thing or the other but why not change to a H back (CF or H3) all together? I understand you really like the Leaf backs so do I but the additional benefit of software corrections (with already excellent lenses) is pretty significant IMO. Selling your Leaf and going for a H3DII31 might be not that expensive alltogether. You will experience some pain but whatever way you go with this you probably will, financial pain that is. Going the H2F/CF way will give you much more flexibity but is only advisable when you plan on using your back on all sorts of other stuff as well as using film.

Now if you are looking for a replacement for your lens range I would opt for the 50-110 zoom which is an excellent lens though heavy. The 35 I find to be only performing when stopped down otherwise I personally find it not a very exciting lens. The 28 much more so which you can only use with a Hasselblad back. Normally I would also recommend the HC150 to you because it falls in your range and its AF is significantly faster and more responsive than that of the 210. However I find the 150 suffers from CA much more than the 210 if not corrected, the HC210 is a great lens but it is slow.

The one lens which I use most on my H is the HC100. If there is one lens I could not do without it would be that one. The 2nd would be the HC50-110.

Getting the CF adapter? Personally I see no reason why you should (unless you perse want to use the 180 or the 250superachromat).
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 09:45:54 am by Dustbak »
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alexjones

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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2009, 09:46:46 am »

If you don't mind manual focus then maybe look at the Hasselblad V series.  I'm not sure about the adaption of that back to the V mount.  The cost on that series has dropped quite a bit.  The lenses are all fantastic and the bodies are solid and simple.  That would be my two cents worth.

Alex Jones, Digital Tech Pittsburgh
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« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 09:50:48 am by alexjones »
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2009, 10:42:34 am »

I have really two thoughts here. One is image quality and not sure a switch would buy you really any advantage. Sure some lenses maybe slightly better than there counterparts , this works both ways but as a system as a whole and the same back not sure the money, time and investment is truly worth it. I thought the same things several times myself and not for some obvious reasons like a leaf shutter than what was really the point. Really all of these systems besides certain prejudice all really produce great images and more preference , software and such makes one chose over the other. But there all very good systems in the IQ dept.

Second thought obviously comes down to the Leaf back and with all there rumors floating around, not that any are any viable than any other .But does make you stop for pause. As mentioned software and all this stuff plays a important part in the decision process but switching out body systems unless for your own personal reasons not mentioned but from a IQ point of view only than you have to question those thoughts. Always a tough call on this stuff but many of the Mamiya lenses are extremely good as well as the Hassy lenses and end of day i see no CLEAR lens system being any better than the other and if staying with the Leaf back than what would be the point from a IQ point of view. Others reasons prevailing of course on feature needs which one may bring over the other.

Also looking at what you have in lenses on the Mamiya you may want to consider some better glass like the 150 D or 70-150 D, 45d and 80 D . I have the 28,45,80, 150 D lenses myself and they are very good and much better than some of those zooms you have . May want to consider getting rid of those and look at the 70-150 D zoom. Just some thoughts
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 10:47:13 am by Guy Mancuso »
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EricWHiss

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2009, 11:05:31 am »

Frank,
What about the AFi?
Eric
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sid_v

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2009, 11:34:34 am »

hehe.....search for the holy grail continues. It's an addiction for sure!!

Whatever you are getting into now, you will feel like changing in the next two years!

Frank, you have good equpiment you lusted for four years back. Do you really need the H1/H2 or you want??

regards,
sid.
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2009, 11:49:49 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Frank,
What about the AFi?
Eric


Since I view everything from a commercial standpoint, I'd just buy all Hasselblad.   The prices are less than everyone else and they have the ONLY complete lens line.  The HY6 has no autofocus wide angle and let's be realistic they are in reorganization, the Mamiya lenses are not that much cheaper than the blad lenses and they don't have a 100mm F2 something.  100mm to 110mm is a magic number for a lot of what I do.

If you have a complete hasselblad and you need to update firmware you can do it without sending it in.  As far as the use, or goodness of the hasselblad back I haven't used one enough to judge that.

Blad is also the ONLY medium format standard in rental, so if you travel or need backups, well you get the picture.

Now if I just wanted to save money and have a better camera and lens set I'd buy used Contax because I have them, they are sharp through the range and do everything a Mamiya will do, it just does it better.  I've had the phase and contax's for a while and had so few issues they are not worth mentioning, (other than the constant updates to V4).    

If I was going the Phase/Contax route I'd just buy used or refurbished, because in today's market you can probably get a complete 31 to 39mpx system for the price of a new D3x.

Now before I'd do any of this, I'd lay out a 1ds3, a d3x, a Hasselblad, a phase and your current system and shoot all of them equally in the style you shoot, because saving money is one thing, having a camera that stops you from working is quite another.

In regards as to where Leaf is they're just silent and silence in today's world is not golden.  I wish them the best though.

The thing is changing medium format brand is going to throw you into sticker shock.  It's like selling a Condo you bought in 2006 in Miami for a house in the Hollywood hills today.

The House overlooking Sunset is a deal, but the Condo is going to be a damn tough sell.

B
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Frank Doorhof

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2009, 12:16:36 pm »

Thanks for all the responses.
Let's make one thing clear, I'm not switching for quality issues.

Let me explain without saying too much.
When I use a brand I will promote this if I really like it, with Elinchrom and Leaf this has been a wonderful coorperation which grows over the years.
My mamiya has been crashing for 2 months before Mamiya NL FINALLY under my constant pushing send it to Germany for an upgrade which according to them wouldn't solve anything because it was the Leaf back that was bad.
Well when I got it back all the problems dissapeared as snow under the sun, however in total I owned a camera for 3 months that crashed every day or so, and was without a camera for a total of app 2-3 weeks.

Last friday my mirror locked and because I'm extremely busy at the moment outside sessions I wanted the 645AFD/III back asap (dragging the RZ outside can be done but it's a heavy beast), the deal was that I would send it in and get it back within 2 days.
The repair however was too complicated and Mamiya NL wants to send the camera to germany which would mean adding to the week I'm already am without a camera will add another 1-2 weeks to the wait.

I talked very nicely to them and mailed them that I'm expecting after the history I had with this camera that they would loan me a body to finish shooting or exchange it for a new body and I'm willing to pay for the difference. Normally when someone says we don't have a loaner that's ok, I have a backup in the RZ but the way the phone call went today showed me that Mamiya NL is not exactly willing to build up customer loyalty : in short, "we don't loan bodies to photographers, you can rent one, or buy a spare, when my washer brakes down I also don't get a loaner".
I can understand this for a P&S camera, or even a 5DMKII, but a system like this should have the proper support especially when it's taking longer than a week.

I'm always trying to work with and for the companies I'm using gear from and sometimes you expect a little in return.
I did not want to put this out in the open because I hate to do that but I think it explains why Mamiya is no longer an option for me.

The AFi is a GREAT system but I also carry the camera with me on trips and vacations and the Hasselblad is a lot lighter and smaller, that's the only reason the Hasselblad would be my first choice.

I haven't decided anything yet but am talking to several people, it's a hell of a lot money and work to switch for a principle I know but sometimes you have to listen to your heart.......
And sometimes to common sense, if things don't work out I will also contact Mamiya belgium or germany to see what they can do in the future.
But for the moment the Hasselblad and AFi options are still open.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:59:54 pm by Frank Doorhof »
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Jack Flesher

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2009, 12:19:43 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Now before I'd do any of this, I'd lay out a 1ds3, a d3x, a Hasselblad, a phase and your current system and shoot all of them equally in the style you shoot, because saving money is one thing, having a camera that stops you from working is quite another.

x 2. I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome, so the above advice is an excellent way to make sure that for your particular case it really is...
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gwhitf

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« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2009, 12:43:23 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
x 2. I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" syndrome, so the above advice is an excellent way to make sure that for your particular case it really is...

I suspect you may have fallen under the influence of thinking that a true professional can have one camera body. Just buy another body, and get on with your life. Just because you slap somebody's logo on the corner of your pictures doesn't mean that they owe you a free rental/loaner body. Come on.

I also think you should pay Display Advertising Rates for every time you post something here, because every picture feels like a veiled ad for a workshop or DVD. Seriously.

Trust me, I am the king of switching systems. Don't do it. Just Man-Up and and buy another body and get back to business. You need some Tough Love.
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2009, 12:46:51 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
Thanks for all the responses.
Let's make one thing clear, I'm not switching for quality issues.


Actually you are because your camera keeps breaking.  That's a quality issue.

I'm not going to try to sway anyone from one format to another, but I can promise you that I wouldn't go twenty feet outside my door without a two Canons or Nikons, because unless I throw one (uh yea, it's happened), they don't break and breaking is a big damn deal in my world.

No matter what anyone says, medium format is slow and difficult.  I don't know why, other than I assume the cameras are based on 12 year old technology and the market is so small that investment is slow and  difficult.

I almost fall over when I read stuff like Nikon Sales are down, but they will "only" sell 4.7 million lenses this year.  It just goes to show you where the investment money is.

Still, before I took a bath on selling my current cameras and systems, I'd sure as hell invest a thousand and do a test of every camera on the planet, shoot it, process it, retouch it and print it.

Then I'd make my decisions.

But then again if the Mamiya has worked for you, why not just buy a few dozen used ones as backup because they're really not that expensive.  


B
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Frank Doorhof

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2009, 01:05:27 pm »

@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?
I don't expect anything from my dealer but I do expect that when I NEED a camera for something that is also benifitial for them that they help out.
Also with a dealer that supports me this way (having a crashing camera for a few months and denying there is any problem) I'm afraid for the future and to be honest the stuff is WAY too expensive for that and I'm not afraid of paying something (I brought a considerable ammount of money to several dealers over the past year) but I do want a dealer to take his/her customers seriously.
I don't think that's wrong for the price you're paying......


@BCooter,
You are 100% right and I own several bodies but not two AFD/III's (actually a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII).
I respect people and I expect the same from a dealer that's all and when I'm being treated like that I have to be happy that they will take the time to speak to me than I think we are on the wrong foot.


Medium format is a format I'm not willing to give up for a Canon or Nikon I know both systems and own a Canon setup.
But I do have to feel that my dealer can help me out when I have a problem and not deny everything untill there is no denying possible anymore and than under protest take action.
Maybe I should say F you and buy two second hand bodies to throw away when they break down, but maybe it's a defect in my genes but it doesn't work that way for me

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jing q

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2009, 01:22:06 pm »

what makes you think a hassy's not going to break down also?
good advice is to just get another body. AFdII going for less than 2k on ebay.get 2.

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?
I don't expect anything from my dealer but I do expect that when I NEED a camera for something that is also benifitial for them that they help out.
Also with a dealer that supports me this way (having a crashing camera for a few months and denying there is any problem) I'm afraid for the future and to be honest the stuff is WAY too expensive for that and I'm not afraid of paying something (I brought a considerable ammount of money to several dealers over the past year) but I do want a dealer to take his/her customers seriously.
I don't think that's wrong for the price you're paying......


@BCooter,
You are 100% right and I own several bodies but not two AFD/III's (actually a RZ67ProII + backup and a 5DMKII).
I respect people and I expect the same from a dealer that's all and when I'm being treated like that I have to be happy that they will take the time to speak to me than I think we are on the wrong foot.


Medium format is a format I'm not willing to give up for a Canon or Nikon I know both systems and own a Canon setup.
But I do have to feel that my dealer can help me out when I have a problem and not deny everything untill there is no denying possible anymore and than under protest take action.
Maybe I should say F you and buy two second hand bodies to throw away when they break down, but maybe it's a defect in my genes but it doesn't work that way for me
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bcooter

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2009, 01:24:44 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
@Gwhtif,
Sorry but what did I do to you ?
There is no logo on my photos for several months and even if there was what's the problem with that ?


Frank, I don't care if you put 45 point type across your photos and place ineteractive buttons to every camera and light maker you want to associate with.

This forum is full of sales messages from dealers, reps, and seminar givers.

Now if I was Michael I'd take strong exception to it, because he has built a strong business and it seems a lot of people use his forum to drive business to their forum or blog.

My feeling is Michael does so well with his business model, he doesn't think twice about any of the attempted competition.

Regardless, the thing I find most interesting about these forums is the photographers who have the "strongest" brand loyalty are not shooting with the latest and greatest, but are using 2 and third generation equipment.

You see it all the time, someone says, yea, the new rasta 6000 has a great lcd though the person writing it has never held one, much less reached into their pocket and spent the money.


B
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2009, 01:30:38 pm »

So the plot thickens. You posted the additional explanation as I was responding to the first post...

A good dealer would send you a loaner -- I know mine will (and has) for me.  However, a smart photographer, especially when deadlines and projects are in the balance, will have at least one back-up body. Which in my case I have purchased as well, though it is just a lowly AFD-1 body.  But then it works fine with my back, albeit a little slower and without some of the features of the AFD2 or 3 body, but then it was also cheaper than even a single lens. Small price to pay for the piece of mind of project insurance...
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Frank Doorhof

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Dillema, need some help
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2009, 01:35:46 pm »

I'm no dealer and not being paid so all I do is because I like a product.
Maybe that's what also drives the emotion.
I never intent to post commercial as ghtwif implies I just explained the situation.
Or in other words I just wanted to hear about other options and opinions when all backfires a backup body will be the best option indeed and the most sensible maybe.


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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2009, 01:52:08 pm »

The dealer could be more helpful - particularly if you are a loyal customer of this dealer and if the you purchased the camera through them and have had multiple issues with it. They should impart some customer care. At the very least they should learn how to speak to a photographer - if someone told one of my customers that you don't get a loaner when your washing machine breaks, I'd wring their neck.

A backup camera is probably not a bad idea, especially given that they can be obtained relatively cheaply.

Unless you purchase a hot swap warranty from any manufacturer, this episode could be repeated no matter what camera you owned. I don't know what the case is in your vicinity, but in the USA there is an option for a Hot Swap warranty on Phase One camera bodies. If that is not in place, and you don't own a backup, then you are at the mercy of the level of customer service from that particular dealer you purchased through.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One


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Ken Doo

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« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2009, 01:55:58 pm »

Rash decisions (and often not the best) are made in the heat of the moment.  Take a few days off to cool your heels.

Two things would come to my mind if I were in your situation:

1.  Buy a back-up body

2.  Get a new dealer

Sh*t happens (and to all brands/platforms) Probably not something worth changing your entire workflow over....

Jack Flesher

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« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2009, 01:59:14 pm »

Quote from: Frank Doorhof
I'm no dealer and not being paid so all I do is because I like a product.
Maybe that's what also drives the emotion.
I never intent to post commercial as ghtwif implies I just explained the situation.
Or in other words I just wanted to hear about other options and opinions when all backfires a backup body will be the best option indeed and the most sensible maybe.

Frank,

Just to clarify, I was not implying anything about your business, nor do I care how or where you market yourself.  My comment was based on you giving us the added info. I was offering an alternative point of view -- which I could have said more directly -- get a back-up body (it's cheap) and find a better dealer.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2009, 02:00:09 pm by Jack Flesher »
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