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MR.FEESH

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Horses- Advice?
« on: June 06, 2009, 12:01:06 am »

This was the first time I've ever tried shooting horses.  Anyone have any suggestions, like framing etc?  I should actually be able to apply any advice as my girlfriend owns a horse farm property-- I can go back whenever.

This is obviously blurry but I thought interesting nonetheless:



The rest:







Elby
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dalethorn

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« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 08:52:21 am »

I've found horses difficult to photograph. Why that is I don't know, but your first two here are very good.
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RSL

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« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2009, 10:20:46 pm »

Actually the first two are too soft to be useful. The third is better, though I think the composition masses too much on the left side of the picture without anything on the right side to balance. If the distribution of the horses were reversed so that the two larger horses were on the right and the smaller horse on the left the balance would be much better, since the horses are moving from right to left in the picture. The fourth picture is just a picture of a horse.

Sorry to sound negative, but you asked for criticism, not a pat on the back. Keep working at it.
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dalethorn

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« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2009, 10:56:50 pm »

I would advise not rejecting a photo because it's too soft.  The only thing that matters really is how it looks.
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MR.FEESH

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« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2009, 11:34:36 pm »

Quote from: RSL
Actually the first two are too soft to be useful. The third is better, though I think the composition masses too much on the left side of the picture without anything on the right side to balance. If the distribution of the horses were reversed so that the two larger horses were on the right and the smaller horse on the left the balance would be much better, since the horses are moving from right to left in the picture. The fourth picture is just a picture of a horse.

Sorry to sound negative, but you asked for criticism, not a pat on the back. Keep working at it.


Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice. Which you didn't provide.
I know the none of the pictures I've posted are good-- that's why I started this thread, to show that I tried and didn't really have success, and thus to see if anyone had any experience shooting horses.

So, have you any tips on how to shoot or frame pictures of horses?
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dmerger

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 12:15:54 am »

Quote from: MR.FEESH
Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice. Which you didn't provide.

Uh, Russ actually did provide suggestions and advice.  You may choose to disagree or ignore his suggestions and advice, but I don't understand how you can say he didn't provide suggestions and advice.  
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« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 01:25:38 am »

Google Robert Vavra. You may get some ideas from him.
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MR.FEESH

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« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 01:36:05 am »

Quote from: dmerger
Uh, Russ actually did provide suggestions and advice.  You may choose to disagree or ignore his suggestions and advice, but I don't understand how you can say he didn't provide suggestions and advice.


Dmerger, did I miss the part where he said, "Here are some things to keep in mind while shooting horses"???  That's what I mean by suggestions and advice.
He told me none of my pictures were good (which I already knew).  Which, as I said, is why I started this thread-- to see if anyone could give advice on how to shoot horses.  He did give some good and useful advice on composition, but that's not what I was seeking advice on.  I'm looking for the how aspect, the technique.  I never asked advice about editing or doing anything else to the pictures I posted, as they were merely there to show that indeed, I tried and did not get very good results.  If you understand this, then you can understand why I said that he did not provide suggestions as to my original query.

Perhaps the only bit in his post that was an actual suggestion on how to shoot horses was "Keep working at it", a process which I am trying to get some help with by starting this thread.


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RSL

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« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 07:57:02 am »

Quote from: MR.FEESH
Dmerger, did I miss the part where he said, "Here are some things to keep in mind while shooting horses"???  That's what I mean by suggestions and advice.
He told me none of my pictures were good (which I already knew).  Which, as I said, is why I started this thread-- to see if anyone could give advice on how to shoot horses.  He did give some good and useful advice on composition, but that's not what I was seeking advice on.  I'm looking for the how aspect, the technique.  I never asked advice about editing or doing anything else to the pictures I posted, as they were merely there to show that indeed, I tried and did not get very good results.  If you understand this, then you can understand why I said that he did not provide suggestions as to my original query.

Perhaps the only bit in his post that was an actual suggestion on how to shoot horses was "Keep working at it", a process which I am trying to get some help with by starting this thread.

Okay, here are some things to keep in mind when yuu're shooting anything, horses included:

(1) Always use a shutter speed appropriate to the situation. If you want blur, use a slow shutter speed. If you want your result to be sharp, use a high shutter speed. There's a good example of what I'm telling you in "Doggy in Basket" on this forum. The background is deliberately blurred while the guy on the bike is sharp. That's good panning with the proper shutter speed.

(2) If something in your picture is moving across the frame, leave it some room in front for movement. There are exceptions to this idea, but your moving horses don't fit any exceptions.

(3) It's not always true, but unless there's a reason to put the graphic weight of the picture all on one side, don't do it.

4) A simple picture of a horse is a simple picture of a horse. Unless there's something special about the horse, or the horse is doing something interesting, or you're making a portrait of the horse to sell to the horse's owner, don't bother.

Is that better?
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« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 07:58:14 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
I would advise not rejecting a photo because it's too soft.  The only thing that matters really is how it looks.

Exactly. And unless there's a reason for it to be soft, it looks crappy.
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byork

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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 09:37:52 am »

Quote from: MR.FEESH
Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice. Which you didn't provide.
I know the none of the pictures I've posted are good-- that's why I started this thread, to show that I tried and didn't really have success, and thus to see if anyone had any experience shooting horses.

So, have you any tips on how to shoot or frame pictures of horses?


Personally I think you were a little unfair to Russ because I agree with everything he said. Nevertheless, FWIW, "Here are some things to keep in mind while photographing horses" (couldn't bring myself to type shooting).

Since you seem to be looking for some technical advice, lets start with why these images didn't work. The framing has already been commented on by others so we won't get into that, but judging by the grey skies and rain squall on the horses backs, it appears these were taken on a particularly gloomy day at the end of a long lens. Unless you have a good telephoto and a camera body with high IQ and ISO capability that can give you a fast enough shutter speed, you aint gonna get a sharp photo. Even the horse standing still has camera shake.

On a bright day, there's nothing better than getting a shot of a horse in full flight, but even then you need the right gear and to be in the right position to achieve it. If thats what your after, here's a suggestion how you might be able to get it. Wait until the horses are being moved to a new paddock....they will always bolt off at a rate of knots when first released. Another way would be if they have been stabled overnight and let into the paddock for the day. Don't then stand at the gate because all you will get is a good shot of the horses backside running in the other direction.....position yourself 50 metres or so inside the paddock before the handler lets the horse go. The distance will vary of course depending on what lens you have on and whether you can predict which way they will head.

I've often found that the best pics I've taken have been when I got closer to the horses with wider lenses.....more depth of field and different angles. To do this you'll have to hang out with them for a while. You cant walk into a paddock and expect them to start striking a pose for you. When you first go in there, they will most likely think your probably going to chuck them a slab of hay or something and swarm around you. This wont give you much either, although occassionally one might prance around with its tail in the air... more likely they will drive you mad looking for food. After a bit, when there is nothing forthcoming and they find you less interesting, they will wander off and do what horses do in a paddock. You of course will follow and get some beautiful natural and candid photos.

If you decide to follow this advice, there is one more thing I'd like to add.....Be Careful. If you dont have any horse sense yourself, make sure you take someone with you who has ( I assume your girlfriend falls into this category). Horses have a pecking order....the dominant ones will bully the others when they think there is possible food on offer. Don't let yourself get surrounded otherwise you are likely to get bowled over by a fleeing horse or cop a stray hoof in the head. I often go into paddocks with half a dozen or more mares with foals, but I've been around horses all my life and don't ever let myself get into this position.

I'll attach a couple of shots that might give a couple of ideas......don't have a website at this stage, but one of these days I might get around to starting a blog or something that I can stick a few on.

Cheers
Brian
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dalethorn

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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 10:11:42 am »

Quote from: RSL
Exactly. And unless there's a reason for it to be soft, it looks crappy.

Agreed - I was just looking for a qualification.
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dalethorn

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« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 10:20:58 am »

Horses are very hard to shoot IMO unless they know you.  If they don't know you it's a lot like shooting wild animals.

In the attached, I caught momma trying to feed junior, and this was the best I could do after about 30 attempts.  Skill could have played a part of course, since I wasn't familiar with horse behavior then.
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MR.FEESH

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« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2009, 10:27:14 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
I would advise not rejecting a photo because it's too soft.  The only thing that matters really is how it looks.


A good point, I think.  Thanks Dale!


Quote from: DaveDn
Google Robert Vavra. You may get some ideas from him.


Wow, I can definitely do some studying with that.


Quote from: RSL
Okay, here are some things to keep in mind when yuu're shooting anything, horses included:

(1) Always use a shutter speed appropriate to the situation. If you want blur, use a slow shutter speed. If you want your result to be sharp, use a high shutter speed. There's a good example of what I'm telling you in "Doggy in Basket" on this forum. The background is deliberately blurred while the guy on the bike is sharp. That's good panning with the proper shutter speed.

(2) If something in your picture is moving across the frame, leave it some room in front for movement. There are exceptions to this idea, but your moving horses don't fit any exceptions.

(3) It's not always true, but unless there's a reason to put the graphic weight of the picture all on one side, don't do it.

4) A simple picture of a horse is a simple picture of a horse. Unless there's something special about the horse, or the horse is doing something interesting, or you're making a portrait of the horse to sell to the horse's owner, don't bother.

Is that better?

That's more like it, yes.  All very good points indeed, thank you!


Quote from: byork
Personally I think you were a little unfair to Russ because I agree with everything he said. Nevertheless, FWIW, "Here are some things to keep in mind while photographing horses" (couldn't bring myself to type shooting).

Since you seem to be looking for some technical advice, lets start with why these images didn't work. The framing has already been commented on by others so we won't get into that, but judging by the grey skies and rain squall on the horses backs, it appears these were taken on a particularly gloomy day at the end of a long lens. Unless you have a good telephoto and a camera body with high IQ and ISO capability that can give you a fast enough shutter speed, you aint gonna get a sharp photo. Even the horse standing still has camera shake.

On a bright day, there's nothing better than getting a shot of a horse in full flight, but even then you need the right gear and to be in the right position to achieve it. If thats what your after, here's a suggestion how you might be able to get it. Wait until the horses are being moved to a new paddock....they will always bolt off at a rate of knots when first released. Another way would be if they have been stabled overnight and let into the paddock for the day. Don't then stand at the gate because all you will get is a good shot of the horses backside running in the other direction.....position yourself 50 metres or so inside the paddock before the handler lets the horse go. The distance will vary of course depending on what lens you have on and whether you can predict which way they will head.

I've often found that the best pics I've taken have been when I got closer to the horses with wider lenses.....more depth of field and different angles. To do this you'll have to hang out with them for a while. You cant walk into a paddock and expect them to start striking a pose for you. When you first go in there, they will most likely think your probably going to chuck them a slab of hay or something and swarm around you. This wont give you much either, although occassionally one might prance around with its tail in the air... more likely they will drive you mad looking for food. After a bit, when there is nothing forthcoming and they find you less interesting, they will wander off and do what horses do in a paddock. You of course will follow and get some beautiful natural and candid photos.

If you decide to follow this advice, there is one more thing I'd like to add.....Be Careful. If you dont have any horse sense yourself, make sure you take someone with you who has ( I assume your girlfriend falls into this category). Horses have a pecking order....the dominant ones will bully the others when they think there is possible food on offer. Don't let yourself get surrounded otherwise you are likely to get bowled over by a fleeing horse or cop a stray hoof in the head. I often go into paddocks with half a dozen or more mares with foals, but I've been around horses all my life and don't ever let myself get into this position.

I'll attach a couple of shots that might give a couple of ideas......don't have a website at this stage, but one of these days I might get around to starting a blog or something that I can stick a few on.

Cheers
Brian


Now that's an answer.
You're guess was spot on.  It was actually raining at the time, and I was holding an umbrella over myself and the camera.  Indeed I was shooting at the end of the lens, maybe ~300mm to the fully extended 420mm.
Honestly, horses scare the crap out of me-- they're just too big.  Getting too close is something I'm not going to worry about, until perhaps a very long time has elapsed and I am as experienced as some one like you, who, from those pictures I might add, has certainly evidenced it.  Great snaps, and thanks for the suggestions-- can't wait to go back!

Elby
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dmerger

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« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 11:08:49 am »

Mr. Feesh, your initially wrote “Anyone have any suggestions, like framing etc?” (Emphasis added)

Russ initially replied “I think the composition masses too much on the left side of the picture without anything on the right side to balance. If the distribution of the horses were reversed so that the two larger horses were on the right and the smaller horse on the left the balance would be much better, since the horses are moving from right to left in the picture.”

Mr. Feesh, you then replied: “Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice. Which you didn't provide. …  So, have you any tips on how to shoot or frame pictures of horses?”  (Emphasis added)

Russ’s reply was exactly the type of suggestion you requested, TWICE!  

Mr. Feesh you asked for free advice and Russ was kind enough to take his time to provide you with some helpful advice.  Your thanks for Russ’s kindness was a rude, nonsensical reply. You owe Russ an apology.
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Dean Erger

MR.FEESH

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« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2009, 11:57:30 am »

Quote from: dmerger
Mr. Feesh, your initially wrote “Anyone have any suggestions, like framing etc?” (Emphasis added)

Russ initially replied “I think the composition masses too much on the left side of the picture without anything on the right side to balance. If the distribution of the horses were reversed so that the two larger horses were on the right and the smaller horse on the left the balance would be much better, since the horses are moving from right to left in the picture.”

Mr. Feesh, you then replied: “Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice. Which you didn't provide. …  So, have you any tips on how to shoot or frame pictures of horses?”  (Emphasis added)

Russ’s reply was exactly the type of suggestion you requested, TWICE!  

Mr. Feesh you asked for free advice and Russ was kind enough to take his time to provide you with some helpful advice.  Your thanks for Russ’s kindness was a rude, nonsensical reply. You owe Russ an apology.


 
I'm still not sure you're getting it.  I asked for useful techniques (framing being one of them) which I can take with me to the field and use the next time I go.  Russ very adequately address the framing in a specific picture, saying it was not as good as it could be, which does not do me any good for next time. I can't re-frame a picture I've already taken. In a later post he said "(2) If something in your picture is moving across the frame, leave it some room in front for movement. There are exceptions to this idea, but your moving horses don't fit any exceptions."  This is a good suggestion, because I can take that advice and apply it in the field on the next shooting occasion, this is what I was looking for.

Also I'm not sure your in a position to tell me a)what I wanted  b)the "rude" inflection of my post (if you know how to tell inflection from text, please let me know) and c) who I owe an apology for what.  Also I think Russ can speak for himself.

Also you misquoted (omission):
In part of a segment you left out, Russ initially said, ",but you asked for criticism,"  to which my reply was, "Uh actually I asked for suggestions and advice."  I never mentioned anything about getting some criticism for the pictures I posted, as again, I already knew they were sub par.

I never said anything bad about Russ.  He takes great pictures and more often than not has great advice.  The issue was simply that in his first post he addressed the pictures I had already taken, when I was asking for techniques I could use for the future.  That's all.  Telling me my framing was off in a picture I had already taken was not advice on how to get better.  Telling me to leave space in front of a moving subject was great advice on how to get better.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 01:39:30 pm by MR.FEESH »
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dmerger

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« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2009, 03:01:53 pm »

Mr. Freesh, your statement that I misquoted Russ is utterly false.   My so called omission was in a totally separate paragraph and unrelated to the passage I quoted or the subject of my post. According to your self-serving definition of “misquoted”, people would have to quote the entirety of whatever someone writes, perhaps volumes, to avoid being accused by you of misquoting. Your use of the word “misquoted” is absurd. You owe me an apology.  

Also, Mr. Freesh, contrary to your assertion, you did not ask “for useful techniques (framing being one of them) which I can take with me to the field and use the next time I go.”  You actually wrote “Anyone have any suggestions, like framing etc?”  Instead of accusing me a misquoting, you should have put a little more time into reading what you actually wrote.  

Mr. Freesh, you also wrote: “Also I'm not sure your (sic) in a position to tell me … the ‘rude’ inflection of my post (if you know how to tell inflection from text, please let me know)”. Again, you are not stating what I wrote accurately.  I never said anything about “inflection”.  

Mr. Freesh, your recent reply is patently dishonest.  It amazes me that someone would be so brazen to write such falsehoods publicly when the truth is mere inches away for all to see.
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 03:41:09 pm »

Quote
Russ very adequately address the framing in a specific picture, saying it was not as good as it could be, which does not do me any good for next time.
(emphasis mine)
Are you kidding? You're basically saying you cannot learn from your mistakes, even when they're pointed out to you and explained in a constructive manner. I find that pretty amazing.
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RSL

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« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2009, 05:29:10 pm »

Quote from: byork
Personally I think you were a little unfair to Russ because I agree with everything he said. Nevertheless, FWIW, "Here are some things to keep in mind while photographing horses" (couldn't bring myself to type shooting).

Since you seem to be looking for some technical advice, lets start with why these images didn't work. The framing has already been commented on by others so we won't get into that, but judging by the grey skies and rain squall on the horses backs, it appears these were taken on a particularly gloomy day at the end of a long lens. Unless you have a good telephoto and a camera body with high IQ and ISO capability that can give you a fast enough shutter speed, you aint gonna get a sharp photo. Even the horse standing still has camera shake.

On a bright day, there's nothing better than getting a shot of a horse in full flight, but even then you need the right gear and to be in the right position to achieve it. If thats what your after, here's a suggestion how you might be able to get it. Wait until the horses are being moved to a new paddock....they will always bolt off at a rate of knots when first released. Another way would be if they have been stabled overnight and let into the paddock for the day. Don't then stand at the gate because all you will get is a good shot of the horses backside running in the other direction.....position yourself 50 metres or so inside the paddock before the handler lets the horse go. The distance will vary of course depending on what lens you have on and whether you can predict which way they will head.

I've often found that the best pics I've taken have been when I got closer to the horses with wider lenses.....more depth of field and different angles. To do this you'll have to hang out with them for a while. You cant walk into a paddock and expect them to start striking a pose for you. When you first go in there, they will most likely think your probably going to chuck them a slab of hay or something and swarm around you. This wont give you much either, although occassionally one might prance around with its tail in the air... more likely they will drive you mad looking for food. After a bit, when there is nothing forthcoming and they find you less interesting, they will wander off and do what horses do in a paddock. You of course will follow and get some beautiful natural and candid photos.

If you decide to follow this advice, there is one more thing I'd like to add.....Be Careful. If you dont have any horse sense yourself, make sure you take someone with you who has ( I assume your girlfriend falls into this category). Horses have a pecking order....the dominant ones will bully the others when they think there is possible food on offer. Don't let yourself get surrounded otherwise you are likely to get bowled over by a fleeing horse or cop a stray hoof in the head. I often go into paddocks with half a dozen or more mares with foals, but I've been around horses all my life and don't ever let myself get into this position.

I'll attach a couple of shots that might give a couple of ideas......don't have a website at this stage, but one of these days I might get around to starting a blog or something that I can stick a few on.

Cheers
Brian

Brian, Very nice work. You really know how to do horses.
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