Topic: Sigma DP2 (Read 12518 times)

henrikfoto · « **on:** June 03, 2009, 07:02:33 pm »

I would just like to hear from some users of this new model.
Has anyone any experience with it?

Henrik

DarkPenguin · « **Reply #1 on:** June 03, 2009, 08:13:30 pm »

There are two reviews over at the online photographer.

tedmna · « **Reply #2 on:** June 05, 2009, 07:31:32 pm »

Henrik,

I have been using one. If you have questions, fire away.

Ted Johnson

henrikfoto · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2009, 03:24:34 am »

Quote from: tedmna

Henrik,

I have been using one. If you have questions, fire away.

Ted Johnson

I just wondered what you think about the image-quality? Is it more like the normal pocket-cameras or is the files as good as the newer Canons and Nikons?

Henrik

Plekto · « **Reply #4 on:** June 07, 2009, 02:40:53 am »

Isn't that a bit like asking if a car is like a Hyundai or a Ferrari? IMO, the Sigma is more like a Buick - somewhere in the middle. It's a beautiful sensor, but it's quite obviously only at about the ~10MP or so range in clarity and detail. It's a great 35mm replacement, but with the newer DSLRs approaching true 645 film quality...

But, most people don't need even CLOSE to 25MP. Exactly how large do you print? I don't ever email anything to my friends or relatives, for instance, over even 2MP or so. Printing? 25MP is roughly 20X15 at film quality. ie - as good as a DLab can print out currently and you literally need to hold it 2 inches from your eye to see any defects in the print. At reasonable "enlargement" losses that we'd expect instead of mirror smooth, you can safely push 25MP to 40*30 or so without any loss of detail at reasonable viewing distances(most people don't peer at a painting on the wall from a couple of inches away)

Clearly overkill...

For what the DP2 is though, it clearly blows pocket cameras out of the water and does a great job of taking every day type shots. I like to think of it as a Olympus E420 in a smaller format. Like a micro DSLR.

Dave Millier · « **Reply #5 on:** June 08, 2009, 01:47:35 pm »

I can't speak for the DP2 as I don't have one but it does have the same sensor as the DP1 which I purchased recently. Image quality is very good. It is clearly a match for a camera like the Canon 5D (which I also have) under favourable conditions. Resolution wise, the 5D probably has a theorectical edge but if you don't print larger than 24 x 16 inches you won't see it. It has a slightly different look which isn't always obvious but which you see in certain images.

First of all, it seems to preserve the highlights a little better than my Canons - there is a hint of HDR about it. I don't know if is better dynamic range or some other magic but you can obtain results which you know would have been blown highlights or silhouettes with some cameras. Secondly, it has a "smooth" tonality. I can't really explain what that means but it might possibly be related to the reduced sharpening required - which can sometimes create a falsely bright or harsh look. Thirdly, you occasionally get a "3D look". I can't exactly explain that either, LOL. To me it happens when a sharp foreground subject sits in front of a partly out of focus blurred background. Not always, but often, the sharp foreground pops out of the background blur in away you rarely see with other cameras. It can create a tangible impression of depth, sometimes. Indeed, one thing that can be said about the Foveon sensor is that every now and again something conspires to create image quality which can be jaw dropping. Not all the time sadly.

There are some drawbacks of course. It lacks an AA filter which means that sometimes you get luminance aliasing artifacts (primarily stair-stepping jaggies on diagonal lines). It is rarely noticeble in landscapes but can sometimes be a bit obvious in architecturals especially if you have uprezzed with a standard re-sampling algorithm. It can be dealt with by using something like Photozoom. You also have to accept that Foveon means Sigma and they are not the greatest of camera builders. The lenses in the DP series are excellent, the body is half SLR alternative and half really cheap P&S. I don't know why they can't seem to get a processing pipleline that has decent speed but they can't. Expect to wait several seconds between shots while that red light flickers. I love the DP1 used on a tripod but it can be irritatingly slow when shooting handheld. Waiting 5 secs after shooting one frame before the camera responds to controls can try the patience...

Overall, DP1 and DP2 are really the Sd14 in a compact. You might like to take a look at my comparison article here for some example shots from that camera: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/scans/sd14vs14nx.htm

Quote from: henrikfoto

I just wondered what you think about the image-quality? Is it more like the normal pocket-cameras or is the files as good as the newer Canons and Nikons?

Henrik

Plekto · « **Reply #6 on:** June 08, 2009, 08:19:15 pm »

Quote from: Dave Millier

First of all, it seems to preserve the highlights a little better than my Canons - there is a hint of HDR about it. I don't know if is better dynamic range or some other magic but you can obtain results which you know would have been blown highlights or silhouettes with some cameras.

(based upon experience with the SD14's identical sensor)
This is the sensor. It has three layers that the light filters through, exactly like film, so it has a very film-like shoulder.(more on this below) That said, the camera also works like a film camera with ISO 100-200 film in it. The color is similar to film as well - a bit muted compared to the average DLSRs overly bright look.

But it's tricky as well. You really are stuck with one look and one ISO. So it's a lot like putting Reala or Velvia in your SLR and trying to use it for everything. Sometimes it's gorgeous, most of the time it's merely very good. You just can't push it or do night-time shots without it being a total mess(though bracketing and blending works fine).

Quote

Secondly, it has a "smooth" tonality. I can't really explain what that means but it might possibly be related to the reduced sharpening required - which can sometimes create a falsely bright or harsh look.

It's due to the fact that it has no Bayer pattern, so color quality and resolution is exactly the same between each color. You get a continuous tone effect like film between the pixels as a result. And it doesn't require any AA filter. Sure, there are some luminance artifacts, but as you mentioned, they are easily tweaked in normal processing. This still looks better than a Bayer pattern, IMO.

http://www.ddisoftware.com/sd14-5d/
You'll notice the 1700 line resolution for every mode and color.

It's most noticeable on the pictures of the flowers on that page. The reds on the Bayer sensor look blurred and the whites pop out too much. The Sigma looks esthetically clean and continuous.(though not *quite* as sharp, IMO) Technically it doesn't have a film-like shoulder. It's just that the color channels and resolutions are equally balanced and so they all blow out evenly. With a Bayer sensor, you get a weak red channel all too often and the camera boosts it to compensate. but white and yellow also have a lot of red in them, so it's easy to hit 255 and you're done. Our eyes notice this unnatural look, of course.

Final Thoughts:
IMO, this is the hottest new market segment in cameras. DSLR sensors in compact bodies. Kodak is coming out with one soon, for instance, like this, and Canon already is blurring the lines as well. Is it a DSLR? No, obviously not. Is it capable of crushing most every pocket camera out there? Pretty close to it

KevinA · « **Reply #7 on:** June 10, 2009, 06:00:28 am »

Reid reviews http://www.reidreviews.com is doing a test on the DP2.

Kevin.

tedmna · « **Reply #8 on:** June 14, 2009, 03:43:50 pm »

Quote from: henrikfoto

I just wondered what you think about the image-quality? Is it more like the normal pocket-cameras or is the files as good as the newer Canons and Nikons?

Henrik

Henrik,

I would say the overall resolution is equal to or better than my Nikon D200. That said, the image "qualities" of the Sigma are much more pleasant than the Nikon. I have discussed the camera with others who have it and the Leica M8, and we feel the Sigma draws in a similar manner to the M8. How much is the lens and how much the sensor is impossible to say. I also feel that the camera creates images with the feel of the Nikon D700 with Zeiss lenses. Again, this may have a great deal to do with the lens.

Again, the absolute resolution may not equal the DSLR's, but the "feel" of the DP2 images are quite high. And printed up to it's natural resolution at 240 dpi of about 8" x 11", the photographs are wonderful.

I hope this helps.

Ted Johnson

feppe · « **Reply #9 on:** June 14, 2009, 06:44:37 pm »

How's the build quality? I've read in reviews saying it has a plasticky feel to it. I'd be carrying such a camera with me most of the time, and it would be tossed around in bags and pockets, so this is a big concern for me.

Khun_K · « **Reply #10 on:** June 15, 2009, 09:33:19 pm »

Just got my DP-2 yesterday, will try to do some test shortly. I also have the DP-1 but since the two are of different focal length, it is difficult to make comparison. First impression, the entire interface although looks similar, but quite different. between DP-1 and DP-2, the difference is more than Canon G9 to G10, even though the lay out is quite close.
The LCD screen is still not what today's compact compact camera level, it is more for a viewfinder, it does not simulate the manual setting, as the DP-1, it is not a problem for me, but my wife complain a lot when using it. Camera built quality is nice, feel solid, the lens cap is same as the DP-1 - which is not good, you will always need to remember to remove it to avoid trapping the lens when it extends after power on.
Overall, quite impression, I did some quick shot, the speed is indeed a lot faster, the wait between shot to shot as the DP-1 is greatly reduced. I have been using DP-1 for a while now, I can confirm that it is a lot better than G10, even though of lower resolution, but the quality viewing at 100% to 100%, DP-1 is closer to a M8, the best I have tried on the compact camera. I suppose DP-2 at least the same, given the same sensor and newer processor, X3 sensor is good, but shooting at strong bright red light, I amy simply turn off the camera or just make it B&W. I hope DP-2 improves it. WIll let you guys know in a day or two.
I tried to use DP-1 a small studio snap shot camera, but at 28mm it is difficult, now with DP-2, I think it will be a lot useful. Attach 2 DP-1 image for reference, recently shot in Xinjiang, China. Too bad, my DP-2 arrives 3 weeks too late to make the trip but I did make quite a few shots with DP-1, more to be found on my trip journal http://cruising-xinjiang.blogspot.com/

Brgds/K

henrikfoto · « **Reply #11 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:23:16 am »

I just tested the camera today. It was a huge disappointment!!!
The picure-quality is ok, but...

AF is super-slow!
It looks like and feels like a 100$ camera. All cheap plastic.
The lens is also plastic-like and gives a poor impression.

This camera is a joke !

Khun_K · « **Reply #12 on:** June 16, 2009, 10:55:41 am »

Quote from: henrikfoto

I just tested the camera today. It was a huge disappointment!!!
The picure-quality is ok, but...

AF is super-slow!
It looks like and feels like a 100$ camera. All cheap plastic.
The lens is also plastic-like and gives a poor impression.

This camera is a joke !

Thanks, I think you must have your reason but I think the build quality is OK, its not as heavy as Canon G10, but it feels solid enough. In my recent trip to norther Western China, I use the DP-1 thru snow storm at -5 degree C to desert at close to 50 degree C, it perform well. I just hope the DP-2 could come in time.
Anyway, I plan to test it tomorrow to see its quality but I did a snap shot off my balcony, the performance is quite good, I made a shot with manual setting, f/7.1, ISO 50, for 6.0 seconds, the file is very clean and sharp. Attach here for reference. One is full frame and one crop from 100% screen. More to come tomorrow.

Regards, K

Khun_K · « **Reply #13 on:** June 17, 2009, 11:51:29 am »

finally did some test today for the DP-2. Further on my comments 2 days ago, here is my conclusion;

(1) DP-1 was a great compact camera, DP-2 is slightly better
(2) DP-2 has the same build quality, I can't tell much difference beyond the slight rearrangement of layout and dials, so as the interface changed a little, I am in favor of DP-2, it is faster to access in my point of view. The lens retract faster than the DP-1 but still slow, for fast action shot, you might miss something from waiting this camera to be ready
(3) DP-2 can shoot a lot faster than DP-1 in raw which is welcome, it still has longer shutter time lag than other compact I use, such as G10, it is something you can use to although it should be better
(4) DP-2 lens is brighter and can close down further, f/2.8 - f/14 compares to DP-1 from f/4 - f/11. This is important to me because I can use DP-2 in studio as a compact snap shot camera that has the same setting as my main studio camera, setting at ISO 50, shot mostly between f/8 - f/11.
(5) image quality is very good, far superior than G10 - cleaner, less grainier. Still behind Leica M8 by a tab.

Some ref pictures attached.

Regards, K

Dave Millier · « **Reply #14 on:** June 17, 2009, 06:08:03 pm »

Where do you get the idea the camera is plastic? It is almost entirely painted metal (the battery compartment door is plastic) and very solid. It is not dense and heavy for its size like the G7/9/10 cameras but you couldn't mistake it for plastic. The lens when closed is rigid but when it extends it has the same slight look of vulnerability as the Canons. I use mine with a lensmate adapter, it makes me feel safer.

Quote from: henrikfoto

I just tested the camera today. It was a huge disappointment!!!
The picure-quality is ok, but...

AF is super-slow!
It looks like and feels like a 100$ camera. All cheap plastic.
The lens is also plastic-like and gives a poor impression.

This camera is a joke !

henrikfoto · « **Reply #15 on:** June 17, 2009, 07:16:13 pm »

Quote from: Dave Millier

Where do you get the idea the camera is plastic? It is almost entirely painted metal (the battery compartment door is plastic) and very solid. It is not dense and heavy for its size like the G7/9/10 cameras but you couldn't mistake it for plastic. The lens when closed is rigid but when it extends it has the same slight look of vulnerability as the Canons. I use mine with a lensmate adapter, it makes me feel safer.

I think everybody have their own perception of what "quality" is.
The Sigma DP2 looks and feels (to me) like low quality. I think most of the Sigma-lenses give the same feeling.
This is of course highly subjective. The slow AF however is not subjective.

I am sure the camera gives nice picture-quality. I just hated to use it.

tedmna · « **Reply #16 on:** June 18, 2009, 04:17:44 pm »

Quote from: feppe

How's the build quality? I've read in reviews saying it has a plasticky feel to it. I'd be carrying such a camera with me most of the time, and it would be tossed around in bags and pockets, so this is a big concern for me.

The build quality is fine. It's not a Leica, but I would say it's close to other cameras in the same price class. No better, no worse.

Plekto · « **Reply #17 on:** June 18, 2009, 07:35:48 pm »

I'd rate it as no different than any of the typical prosumer type cameras out there in build quality. Just it has a DSLR sensor in it.(like the new Olympus Pen) It's no E420, but so what - small and takes great pictures. Perfect for family and trips and other informal stuff.

Author Topic: Sigma DP2 (Read 12518 times)

DarkPenguin