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Author Topic: How do you prefer to sharpen?  (Read 2936 times)

MDaniels80

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« on: May 25, 2009, 09:43:42 am »

I think I've posted a similar post awhile back but I still seem to be unsatisfied with my sharpening techniques.  I realize there are two or three parts to sharpening- Imput to capture the sharpness lossed at capture, creative for selective focus, and then output for sharpness that can be lossed when outputting.
Problem is, lately I've been sharpening in LR only.  But I find that I do like how my images look.  It could be that I am oversharpening- I dont know.  A typical setting in LR would be Amount 70-80, Radius .7-1, Detail 25 and possibly some masking depending.  I am just not thrilled with the results.  Depending on the image, the sharpening can give it a "blotchiness" (I am not sure how else to describe it) when viewing at 100 percent.  Loweing the sharpness, I find it doesn't look as sharp as it could or should be.  
So now I am thinking of just exporting my images and sharpening them is PS toward the end of my workflow.  I usually would do unsharp mask filter with an amount of 120, radius 1, threshold 3.  And change the layer to luminosity.  Recently, I read a different technique of creating a copy of the green channel, and creating a mask through a couple of processes, and then applying the unsharpmask.  I have to go back and see all the steps of the process.
The point is, I don't think I am happy with the LR shapening.  I could either be not using it correctly, or PS could be better.  I wanted to know how most others are going about sharpening their photos, and if there are any flaws in any of the workflows I mentioned above.
Another note I wanted to point out, I do use the output sharpening with LR for both print and screen- which I am fine with.
Thanks for any advice or suggestions.
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Schewe

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2009, 10:17:15 pm »

Quote from: MDaniels80
I am just not thrilled with the results.  Depending on the image, the sharpening can give it a "blotchiness" (I am not sure how else to describe it) when viewing at 100 percent.  Loweing the sharpness, I find it doesn't look as sharp as it could or should be.

Viewing at 100% zoom, what do you expect an image to look like?

You realize that at 100% zoom your image is 2-4 times the size or 1/2 to 1/4 the final resolution of your print, right?

So, exactly what are you expecting to see at 100%? (the correct answer is a properly capture sharpened image that is appropriate for final output sharpening–which means you seriously don't want to over-sharpen in Develop).

Have you actually made prints or are you simply prejudging the results on screen? Just wondering cause it take a lot of experience judging what a properly sharpened image should look like on screen.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 10:18:10 pm by Schewe »
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MDaniels80

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2009, 07:16:30 am »

I do understand I am at 100%, but in LR, don't you have to be at 1:1 to see the sharpening applied?  
I do print my photos- usually 8x10 and can see the effect.  
Perhaps I am overshapening, which is why I posted my setting above.  Do they look way off, or something else wrong in my workflow?
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kers

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2009, 08:13:46 am »

Quote from: MDaniels80
I do understand I am at 100%, but in LR, don't you have to be at 1:1 to see the sharpening applied?  
I do print my photos- usually 8x10 and can see the effect.  
Perhaps I am overshapening, which is why I posted my setting above.  Do they look way off, or something else wrong in my workflow?


Hello M?,

I am a photographer that has used three different Nikons and lenses during the past years. Everytime I have to sharpen differently for each combination of lens and body. The trend is I need less sharpening because the equipment gets better.
Also the iso setting and the subject of the photo are important factor how much i sharpen.

When i look at 100% in photoshop i use some smart sharpening and just look how it behaves on my screen _ I make sure it is not oversharpened-  that is my base-image .
for each outlet purpose i sharpen again and also I add some contrast sharpening (unsharp mask 5-20% , radius 50, treshod 0) to make some photos more 3D.
In case of print i make some prints with different sharpening as a test to find the best outcome.
In case of publication I have a problem- for I do not know the right amount ; so I use what works best with my own prints at about 30 cm wide.
This works well for me.

Pieter Kers
« Last Edit: May 27, 2009, 06:06:55 am by kers »
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pegelli

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2009, 08:16:43 am »

I still use photokit sharpener in CS, haven't tried the LR print sharpening in earnest yet, but I understand from watching the Michael/Jeff tutorials that this is based on the same principles. I'm extremely happy with the results, so much better than the simple USM or high pass sharpening that's built in by default.

A good bit of reading on the background of sharpening, masking etc. can be found here. Look for the tuorial "put a fine edge on your sharpening skills". Even though I don't use the tools this website provides it helped me understand better what sharpening and edge masking was all about.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 08:18:05 am by pegelli »
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MDaniels80

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2009, 04:53:50 pm »

Hi,

I just wanted to follow up on this again.   I've been doing some more research, and still not really sure the best way to go about it.  But, it seems my detail setting in LR was being kept too low.  For landscapes, it should be more like 65-75, rather than 25 which I believe is the default.  Also, I opened a flickr account so I could try and post what I am seeing.  I didn't pick the best example, but here is a landscape photo and then I did an approx 1:1 crop to show the detail.  Again, I know you normally would not look at the photo at 1to1 but since you have to apply the sharpening, or be able to see it being applied, at this level, I am seeing sharpening I don't like.  Maybe its the image, maybe my settings, or maybe I am just driving myself nuts over nothing (probably the latter).  But in the cropped photos below, I see more in the sand and a little in the rock retaining wall, more of a "painting like" effect.  I have noticed this effect when looking at printed 8x10's.  Again, this is not the best example, but was something I was working on currently. I have other photos I would have to pull out that I noticed it more.

Photo:


Crop:



Crop:
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MichaelAlanBielat

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How do you prefer to sharpen?
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2009, 08:44:50 am »

I NEVER used to sharpen in Lightroom. NEVER. Now, I am actually doing 95% of my work in Lightroom (or Aperture, C1 or Phocus) and just doing little retouches with Photoshop. For landscapes, I have my Nik software that comes in handy and is cool to use with landscapes at times.

There is an art to sharpening that really is a case-by-case decision. I sharpen things one way with portraits and another way with landscapes.

A cool helper is to hold down the Alt/Option key (PC vs. Mac) and you will see a grayscale image and it will show you what areas of the image are being impacted by your current sharpening technique. That is very helpful to see what each slider is actually doing to your image on a whole.
Amount increases the contrast between the edge lines in your image, Radius controls the width of the effect and depends on the overall image size (smaller images = less radius, larger rez images = more radius), Detail handles how pronounced the effect is across the board. Too much of that and it is plain as day to see. Lastly, the Masking slider is very important since this tool is similar to the "Threshold" slider in Photoshop. Using a higher value for here is very desirable for portraiture since you don't want every pore of the skin to be sharpened and the higher you go, the more detailed areas it will work with.

But seriously, the Alt/Option key is crucial and can really help you no matter what skill level.

With that elementary explanation of what each slider does, I think you can see that one should approach your sharpening technique depending on the subject and on a case by case basis... This doesn't have to be different per image per say. If I am in a studio or set setting shooting a model then I will be using the same sharpening more time than not. Apply different sharpening techniques only when the overall scene has changed. If you took 50 images of a lighthouse and then 20 of some macro details of nearby foliage then you should do two different sharpening methods and then batch apply them.
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