Poll

I vote...

Yes
- 43 (56.6%)
No
- 15 (19.7%)
I don't care
- 18 (23.7%)

Total Members Voted: 71


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Author Topic: Would you like to see faster glass being made?  (Read 11969 times)

narikin

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Would you like to see faster glass being made?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2009, 03:33:21 pm »

have used the Contax 80 f2.0 extensively at wide apertures (on P45+) and agree with most of above - its near useless at f2.0, except for focusing, and for that matter 2.8, starts to become useful at f4.0 and then something happens at f5.6 and it becomes really good.  I think its not just stopping down using the center of the lens, but also flare/internal light reflections are minimized after f5.6 on, and it all comes together at that aperture.

I dearly wish it was better at wider apertures, but it just ain't so, i.m.h.o.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 03:34:39 pm by narikin »
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vgogolak

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« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2009, 04:17:04 pm »

I suppose the 80/2 shot was tough to gauge.

here's a perrenial favorite of sharpness and detail watchers

the brick  wall!
ok so I cheated, and its a brick walkway too

the first is a center area of the 80/2 at 2.0
the next is far edge

you can almost see from the 200 to 330 kb files that there is more detail in the center
but on my monitor not bad, esp since you would never really see this; it is a gain 100% crop of the P65+ at iso 50

C1 processing

Victor

PS I have the 45mm 2.8 and at 2.8 THAT lens is quite usable

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Carsten W

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« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2009, 06:47:17 pm »

Quote from: vgogolak
the brick  wall!
ok so I cheated, and its a brick walkway too

the first is a center area of the 80/2 at 2.0
the next is far edge

If these are 100% crops, I really don't find them bad, considering... How good is the Rollei 80/2?
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2009, 06:48:20 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
If these are 100% crops, I really don't find them bad, considering... How good is the Rollei 80/2?

I would do a test but it's dark here now. Remind me if I haven't posted a sample tomorrow.
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vgogolak

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« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2009, 07:05:06 pm »

The Rollei lenses are exceptional and I believe have both zeiss and Schneider roots. The 80/2.8 for Rollei is an older zeiss design (like hassey?) while the zeiss 80/2 was only Contax. I think there were both 2.8 and 2.0 80mm schneider designs for Rollei.

I have a 300mm 2.0 ENORMOUS schneider lens and I think they use fewer elements for their fast lenses  (can someone confirm?), so I am curious to see Grahams results

I would not quibble with the results; if they are better I would like to know. There are view camera mounts for Rollei where I could use my Contax mount P65+. It is just that the Contax is small and convenient ana great travel 'walkaround' lens. (Yes, I found it easier to use than the Leica R seies on the road.)

With Contax, Rollei and Hasselblad V there is a quality that many prefer. I am one. Doesn't make it better, (well, maybe it does!    

regards
Victor
« Last Edit: May 25, 2009, 07:07:04 pm by vgogolak »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2009, 11:47:08 am »

Quote from: vgogolak
With Contax, Rollei and Hasselblad V there is a quality that many prefer.
Today I checked if the alignment of my split image screen (adjusted to the film plane my P45) also works well with my new P21+. Apparently the focus plane of the P45 and the P21+ match.
But... doing the test I determined that my Contax 2.0/80 has an "aperture error" (in German it's called "Blendenfehler"; maybe someone can help me out with proper translation here): stopping down the focus shifts back a little bit with each f stop. Oddly enough this applies to both of my copies of the 2.0/80 in exactly the same way.
Anyway... here's another f2 shot this time with the P21+.
With the bigger pixel size f2 is still somewhat uneven and not "tack sharp"... but if the look is required I'd say it is "usable".
(sharpening with C1 preset "Version 3.7 Standard")

scene
[attachment=14006:f2scene.jpg]
center
[attachment=14007:f2center.jpg]
edge (crop 1.3!)
[attachment=14008:f2corner.jpg]
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 11:57:30 am by tho_mas »
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vgogolak

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« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2009, 12:28:48 pm »

Focus shift seems to be a bit of an open secret for lenses. The Leica M 35.. 1.4 seemed to have the most. (lots of discussion on the Leica forum.) Leica admitted to this effect. It may be due to design elements that reduce CA or other effects.

Focus shift may result from design comprises, and is likely in a lot more lenses than we think. It seems to stop at f4 to f5.6
The 80/2 may very well have it, or it could be one of your elements is slightly out of position.

I had not noticed on mine, but I will check.

regards
Victor
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2009, 02:51:20 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
But... doing the test I determined that my Contax 2.0/80 has an "aperture error" (in German it's called "Blendenfehler"; maybe someone can help me out with proper translation here): stopping down the focus shifts back a little bit with each f stop. Oddly enough this applies to both of my copies of the 2.0/80 in exactly the same way.
Anyway... here's another f2 shot this time with the P21+.

I was going to comment on your first set of samples where the f/2 shot seemed to be sharp in front of the metal as the spiderweb was sharp while the more stopped down images seemed to focus more behind and the metal was more sharp.    

Actually this type of focus shift with different aperture settings has been established  - probably more the norm with lenses than not - and nothing wrong with your lenses.  This is more of a problem with autofocus and autostop down cameras, but you can always use your DOF button to see it.


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tho_mas

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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2009, 03:05:27 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Actually this type of focus shift with different aperture settings has been established  - probably more the norm with lenses than not - and nothing wrong with your lenses.  This is more of a problem with autofocus and autostop down cameras, but you can always use your DOF button to see it.
oh, okay - thank you!
But it seems that this is just a problem at closer distances. At medium or wide distances I've never noticed the effect (well, not at the aptertures I shoot with).
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 03:06:06 pm by tho_mas »
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EricWHiss

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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2009, 04:38:44 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
oh, okay - thank you!
But it seems that this is just a problem at closer distances. At medium or wide distances I've never noticed the effect (well, not at the aptertures I shoot with).


Actually there is an article linked to the main LL page about differences between lenses that details this focus shift ... http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/digital-world.shtml .  Anyhow yes this is always there at any focal length but just more apparent with close subjects since the DOF is much smaller. Amount of error probably does vary with lens design as well.  I seem to remember there being a difference in the amount of error between the types of lenses tested in the article.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 04:46:17 pm by EricWHiss »
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tho_mas

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Would you like to see faster glass being made?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2009, 05:06:33 pm »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Actually there is an article linked to the main LL page about differences between lenses that details this focus shift ... http://luminous-landscape.com/essays/digital-world.shtml .  Anyhow yes this is always there at any focal length but just more apparent with close subjects since the DOF is much smaller. Amount of error probably does vary with lens design as well.  I seem to remember there being a difference in the amount of error between the types of lenses tested in the article.
thank you very much!
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2009, 10:08:32 pm »

Medium format is not for low light.

Due size of image plane the DOF is already shallow at f/4, but indeed the Mamiya 80mm f/1.9 all manual is a very lovely lens for portraits etc, as also of light weight.

Personally I do not want heavier lenses, but it would be welcome to see more lenses of lighter weight, as also cameras of lighter weight - of course maintained image qualities.

Regards
Anders


P.S. If I could have one wish, it would be aperture ring on also my AF lenses...
« Last Edit: May 26, 2009, 10:24:56 pm by Anders_HK »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2009, 07:39:11 am »

Quote from: EricWHiss
Anyhow yes this is always there at any focal length but just more apparent with close subjects since the DOF is much smaller.
I've checked that (roughly). Focussing itself is more critical at wider distances of course (just touching the focus ring may cause a difference of 1 meter or so...) due to the gear ratio of focus.
But the focus shift seems to be constant all over the distances. So it seems to disappear up from a certain distance (not really disappearing maybe, but not noticeable anymore due to the wider DOF as you say). Does that make sense?

Quote from: foto-z
I would do a test but it's dark here now.
still dark in north-east Europe? :-)
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PeterA

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« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2009, 08:34:15 am »

I am in the I dont care camp I guess..I have a few versions of relatively fast F2 from Ziess in Contax and F/FE mounts as well as Rollie mount..F2 gives me a beez dick's worth of focal plane  not a lot to play with when hand holding a MF camera and back..for tripod shots - yeah sure..ok ..but on a tripod in set up situations..give me some swing and tilt to play with selective focus and lot more sexy OOF effects. I am old school with camera gear - diifferent tools for different tasks. So faster MF for me is not very interesting if for cost and ergonomic reasons alone..the Rollie 100/2 is as fat and heavy a piece of glass as would try hand holding in MF land you need a lot of light to shoot wide open hand held - and steady hands - mine aren't getting any steadier every day - thats for sure -
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vgogolak

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« Reply #34 on: May 27, 2009, 09:43:23 am »

Dear peter

how do you use the Rollei lenses? with an adapter for a view camera? I can't figure how to use with the Phase back (alpa do not have an adapter.)

I can't see getting a rollei body as Phase doesn't have a mount. (who does? The Sinar that Graham uses seems quite good.)

Will I have to extend my collecting? (No, not right now!  :-)

regards
Victor
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vgogolak

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« Reply #35 on: May 27, 2009, 06:23:44 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
still dark in north-east Europe? :-)

Graham has been a dedicated contributor here. I am sure he will provide samples when he has the time.

Victor
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PeterA

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« Reply #36 on: May 27, 2009, 09:56:40 pm »

Quote from: vgogolak
Dear peter

how do you use the Rollei lenses? with an adapter for a view camera? I can't figure how to use with the Phase back (alpa do not have an adapter.)

I can't see getting a rollei body as Phase doesn't have a mount. (who does? The Sinar that Graham uses seems quite good.)

Will I have to extend my collecting? (No, not right now!  :-)

regards
Victor


Hey Victor,

I picked up a nice set of PQ ( limited to 1/500th lenses) from Schneider ( 40/80/180 ) and the 110 Zeiss all in Rollie mounts ( 6x6) when I switched from Phase P45+ and Phamiya into a HY6 body and Sinar 75LV rotating back -very nice.
What do I like about the Sinar back - apart from the rotating ability? I use Contax Hasselblad V and Mamiya RZ mount adaptors with it - so I can decide which camera/lens combo to use according to need. The other thing I really like about Sinar - is ( depsite its relatively clunky software  which isnt really clunky ) I like the colour I get from this back. All in all a very flexible system and the Hy6 is a very good camera body. Like you I am a fanatical about teh glass hanging off the front of cameras. One day I am hoping we can get a larger square chip from someone..and the Hy6 is good to go if/when we get it.

Pete
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Dick Roadnight

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« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2009, 04:05:42 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Would you like to see faster medium format lenses being made for medium format cameras? I don't see anyone mentioning this but perhaps we are all quietly thinking it? I'm curious.
What do you call fast, and what do you call medium format?

6*17 is medium format, and I am thinking about the Schneider Fine art Gold 1100 for shift-and-stitch GPX pix... but  if you have waves in the picture, and you use a polarizing filter and 50 asa, you need about f4 for 1/125, and the 1100 is f22 with a shutter, or f14 without!

If you do a 400 mm * 170 mm single row shift-and-stitch, (giving you about a GigaPixel) I suppose that would be large format digital?

I have 600 mm and 900 mm aerial lenses with 150 mm front elements (f6) which would be OK wide open using movements without a polarizer... using one shot for the waves and several for the res of the pic.

This is why so many seascapes have "artistically" blurred waves - the photographers did not have the option to do anything else if they wanted DOF without movements.
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