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Author Topic: S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD  (Read 4205 times)

dfarkas

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« on: May 17, 2009, 06:42:23 pm »

I just updated my blog with photos and measurements from yesterday when I had an S2 mockup in our store.

David Farkas Photography Blog

I have side-by-side photos of the S2 and Nikon D3x, S2 and Mamiya 645 AFD, as well as some comparisons of S lenses to Hasselblad HC lenses.

I hope this settles some of the confusion on the size of the S2.


David
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gwhitf

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2009, 08:35:40 pm »

Quote from: dfarkas
I just updated my blog with photos and measurements from yesterday when I had an S2 mockup in our store.
David Farkas Photography Blog

Somebody explain to me the logic of Leica, to allow an "empty chassis" of a new camera, out into the world for public display. WTF? They think that's a positive thing? Here it is, no telling how many months (years?) after being announced, and they send a hollow body out in the world, for rich businessmen to drop to their knees over?

Is this about doing photography, or is this about collecting "art"?

Would be like me, showing my portfolio, but only as 200 pixel x 300 pixel JPGs. Teaser? This would score me points, and win confidence from my clients?

What a truly weird business we are in. Why would Leica do this? Desperation? Where is the Leica of old...?

Who here is gonna be first to wade right into the deep waters, with this kind of performance from Leica? $15-20,000 for the body alone, and then five or seven a pop, for each lens? Who feels confident to write the big fat check, first in line?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 08:50:54 pm by gwhitf »
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dfarkas

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2009, 09:17:12 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Somebody explain to me the logic of Leica, to allow an "empty chassis" of a new camera, out into the world for public display. WTF? They think that's a positive thing? Here it is, no telling how many months (years?) after being announced, and they send a hollow body out in the world, for rich businessmen to drop to their knees over?

Is this about doing photography, or is this about collecting "art"?

Would be like me, showing my portfolio, but only as 200 pixel x 300 pixel JPGs. Teaser? This would score me points, and win confidence from my clients?

What a truly weird business we are in. Why would Leica do this? Desperation? Where is the Leica of old...?

Who here is gonna be first to wade right into the deep waters, with this kind of performance from Leica? $15-20,000 for the body alone, and then five or seven a pop, for each lens? Who feels confident to write the big fat check, first in line?

Leica actually has about 20 fully working prototypes. These were shown at Photokina back in September, the same time the S2 was announced. So, no delay between announcement and a working camera (or twenty).  The actual availability of the S2 is only about four months away.

The shell is used for display purposes where a fully working one isn't required, such as in a glass display case. Since each prototype costs more 100K Euros and all of them are actively being used in R&D in Germany, they are not available for dealer demo days. I requested the mockup so that I could do some controlled pictures versus competing systems and to take detailed measurements. This is not possible at trade shows where the functioning models are. Many have requested more info and detailed specs. Leica was very generous in providing me the mockup and lenses (two of which were real, functional lenses) so that I could share this info.

David
« Last Edit: May 17, 2009, 09:17:43 pm by dfarkas »
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feppe

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2009, 03:02:38 am »

Even the mockup is drool-worthy...

I'm having very hard time understanding how the Leica is so much smaller than the Nikon. Nikon should have an order of a magnitude more money to spend on R&D, thus making the camera smaller.

The Nikon has a much smaller sensor, the lens mount is tiny compared to the S2. I haven't done the math, but I'd imagine both cameras have roughly the same data throughput. All the bells and whistles of the UI shouldn't make such a huge difference in the physical size, as it's all on a chip or two.

Does the S2 have a fundamentally different battery tech or more efficient power management than the Nikon? Something else?

paratom

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2009, 03:50:30 am »

Quote from: feppe
Even the mockup is drool-worthy...

I'm having very hard time understanding how the Leica is so much smaller than the Nikon. Nikon should have an order of a magnitude more money to spend on R&D, thus making the camera smaller.

The Nikon has a much smaller sensor, the lens mount is tiny compared to the S2. I haven't done the math, but I'd imagine both cameras have roughly the same data throughput. All the bells and whistles of the UI shouldn't make such a huge difference in the physical size, as it's all on a chip or two.

Does the S2 have a fundamentally different battery tech or more efficient power management than the Nikon? Something else?

could be the big battery of the d3x, but maybe its also userinterface. Maybe Nikon didnt want to make it smaller because it just balances great in the hand.
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georgl

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2009, 06:39:38 am »

With the handgrip, the S2 is about the same size as the D3x (or D700 with handgrip).
Interesting to me is the bayonet-diameter/sensor size vs. flange distance-ratio. What is the flange distance of the S-System? Less than 55mm (I think the R was 46mm)? That gives the optical designers more freedom.

While the primes are really big in comparison to the N/C-lenses, the 30-90 seems tiny! I wonder why it's about the size of the 35mm, while in other systems the varios are huge (and quite often lose more than one stop)?

The S2 has simply less battery power: 18.5Wh (7,4V@2500mAh), while the D3x has 27,8Wh (11,1V@2500mAh). I hope the ASIC saves power, because the batteries of the M8 are simply too small, the big shutter, the DSPs and the "hungry" CCD with those small batteries (3,7V@1900mAh = 7Wh!) go down really fast, especially in the cold.

Regarding the R&D-effort: from my experience, in every project you reach a critical size limit, more and more manpower has to be invested into communication/documentation making if less efficient. I have worked in such big companies (much larger than Nikon) and it's horrifying to see how much resources are spend into management/controlling/documention/auditing, while smaller companies are more flexible and "intuitive". Around 100 people in R&D for the S-System instead of ~ 500 people in D3/D3x-R&D are maybe ideal for this kind of project!? Although certain things that are done by Nikon in-house (microprocessor development, production processes) are handled by suppliers for Leica - so it's propably not really 100 vs. 500 people anyway.
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BJL

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2009, 09:50:51 pm »

Quote from: feppe
I'm having very hard time understanding how the Leica is so much smaller than the Nikon.
That is easy: mostly the D3X has a bulky integrated vertical grip/battery holder (and maybe the bullet-proof construction, larger LCD, and 284 knobs, dials and buttons.)  Look at the D700 to see how much smaller Nikon can make a 35mm format DLSR body.

What no-one has commented on is that from front on, the Mamiya 645 is smaller than the other two despite having by far the largest format.

By the way: the Mamiya lenses are smaller in part because the Mamiya lens mount is far further from the focal plane, so more of the optical path is inside the body, leaving the lens bodies shorter. Look at the side-on of the Mamiya and Leica with lenses attached.
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Guy Mancuso

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2009, 10:50:55 pm »

Well also showing old Mamiya lenses that are pretty much out of production is deceiving as well. Should be showing the D lenses which are the newest . I should take a shot of my 4 D lenses for a better look at that. The issue with the D3x is Nikon just fitted a new sensor in a older body without a complete redesign as well. Nikon could have made a new body for it and also the built in vertical grip battery setup is integrated in. The S2 uses a fairly small battery inside the body but the vertical grip mockup at least would bring it to the Nikon size. Reality is a Nikon D3x would most likely go far into the numbers on shots as well per charge . The S2 as it is would most likely get 300 at the most, that is obviously to be seen when production units are out but a damn good guess since the DMR and M8 if i got 300 with either one I was damn lucky, I carried 5 batteries for the DMR and M8 when I had them. Nikon my guess since I don't own one most folks may have 2 or 3  batteries total. But again Apples to Oranges.

BTW Billy the S2 is certainly bigger than a D700 which is not shown here for reference. Also good point of the Mamiya since you can have a FF 645 framing in a P65+ on board, which is certainly bigger than the S2 sensor
« Last Edit: May 18, 2009, 10:53:21 pm by Guy Mancuso »
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BernardLanguillier

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S2 side-by-side with D3x and 645AFD
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2009, 11:20:51 pm »

[Regarding the R&D-effort: from my experience, in every project you reach a critical size limit, more and more manpower has to be invested into communication/documentation making if less efficient. I have worked in such big companies (much larger than Nikon) and it's horrifying to see how much resources are spend into management/controlling/documention/auditing, while smaller companies are more flexible and "intuitive". Around 100 people in R&D for the S-System instead of ~ 500 people in D3/D3x-R&D are maybe ideal for this kind of project!? Although certain things that are done by Nikon in-house (microprocessor development, production processes) are handled by suppliers for Leica - so it's propably not really 100 vs. 500 people anyway.
[/quote]

Don't overlook the role of validation and testing... the more complex the system, the more complex the validation required, but that goes up exponentially.

The D3x just works perfect in every condition I have tried it in, from -20c, rain, high altitude, with VR on, with third party lenses, with lenses ranging from 14 to 420mm, with T/S lenses,... nobody has yet found a single noteworthy issue with this body and that is the result of a tremendous investement in validation.

I am not saying that the Leica won't, but just looking at the spec and the R&D team is only a small part of the story.

Cheers,
Bernard
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