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Author Topic: Digitars with DSLR's  (Read 24270 times)

ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2009, 02:07:43 pm »

Hi,

I'd just point out that both focusing and alignment of lens and sensor plays a very major role in sharpness. There was an article here on LL by Joseph Holmes on maladjustment issues with both digital backs and digital lenses. Those articles are clearly worth reading.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Best regards
Erik


Quote from: Anders_HK
Jeff, thanks & correct, pixel density is the word and what I actually meant. Here:

D3X = 6048x4032 pixels / 36x24 = 168 pixels/mm
P65+ = 8984x6732 pixels / 53.9x40.4mm = 166 pixels/mm
5DII = 5616x3744 pixels / 36x24mm = 156 pixels/mm
P45+ = 7216x5412 pixels / 36.8x49.1 = 147 pixels/mm
Aptus 65 = 6144x4622 / 44x33mm = 140 pixels/mm
5D = 4368x2912 pixels / 36x24 = 121 pixels/mm

156/140 is 11%. Much difference?
5DII/5D is 29%. Difference, yes.

I figured that Aptus 65 require perhaps 1.5x or slight more sharpness of lens than film. Thus it is likely that very SHARP traditional large format lenses are up for the task in my case, and that one might need to consider diffraction. However, for wides I am not sure yet how wide lens in combo with how wide stitch. I will soon see if I am right, but will take some time to test too.

And yes, 5DII is more MP, but that does not automatically mean sharper details.

Regards
Anders
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Erik Kaffehr
 

ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2009, 02:23:13 pm »

Hi,

Shooting rotational panos is more like workmanship than art in my humble opinion.

1) Mount panorama adapter
2) Set panorama adapter horizontal
3) Find a good focal length
4) Find a god exposure
5) Take X exposures with significant overlap
6) Merge and crop with any satisfactory tool

I do quite a few panos, really enjoying it, but the feeling I have is that the image is created more in the computer than composed in the viewfinder.

Below is a picture of the equpment I use, I can have it my pockets and click together in seconds.

Best regards
Erik

[attachment=14614:20090602_DSC01071.jpg]





Quote from: tho_mas
This an interessting question in general.
Not always but often I spend a long time in looking at the scene or the subject I am going to shoot... mostly it takes much more time than the actual shooting. So the image grows in my head before I even setup a camera...
From this point I could stitch with pano head or flat with the view camera (I have both)... because to some extend I already know what I want to produce.
Virtually always I use the flat stitching with the view camera.
I feel the difference is that pano head stitching is more attended to capturing something ("take" a picture) whilst the composition on the groundglass is more attended to imaging ("give" or "create" a picture).
And in fact I have yet to see a pano head stitched picture that is more attended to "imaging"... I only know those I'd call "captures" (but that doesn't mean a lot ahttp://luminous-landscape.com/forum/style_images/1/folder_editor_images/icon_open.gifs I possibly only know the "wrong" examples).
Hope it's fairly reasonable explained :-)
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2009, 02:52:19 pm »


Quote
Shooting rotational panos is more like workmanship than art in my humble opinion.
I don't see why rotational panos would be any more workman-like or less artistic than flat stitches with rear movements. I could post an equally tedious list of the tasks required for a flat stitch, and that wouldn't prove a thing.

I would to agree that a lot panos are not very good; IMHO just shooting a really wide view is a visual gimmick but not much else.  Well-composed panos, on the other hand, are deceptively difficult and certainly every bit as much 'art' as single-shot photographs.
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Jeff Kohn
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JeffKohn

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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2009, 02:58:46 pm »

Quote
Below is a picture of the equpment I use, I can have it my pockets and click together in seconds.
Interesting setup, I like your approach to allowing camera tilt without having to use a full-blown multi-row rig. I might have to consider something like this for longer hikes when I don't want to use the extra bulk/weight (and setup time) of the multi-row rig (I have the RRS Ultimate Omni-Pivot kit).
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Jeff Kohn
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2009, 05:58:33 pm »

Quote from: tho_mas
I feel the difference is that pano head stitching is more attended to capturing something ("take" a picture) whilst the composition on the groundglass is more attended to imaging ("give" or "create" a picture).
And in fact I have yet to see a pano head stitched picture that is more attended to "imaging"... I only know those I'd call "captures" (but that doesn't mean a lot as I possibly only know the "wrong" examples).
Hope it's fairly reasonable explained :-)

I should write an essay on this, but Anders is right to say that it is a bit OoT... Anyway, since many seem to find the topic relevant besides its OoTness I will proceed.

My view is that we need to distinguish clearly 2 steps here:
- the selection of an image to be captured in terms of shooting position, composition and crop
- the actual mechanical action of capturing the image (one click for traditional images, several clicks with operations in between for flat/spherical panos)

Regadring the first one, I am not claiming any special abilities here, but for me it is a matter of mental process. The GG is a great tool for materializing a prototype of an image before it is captured, and this process of vizualization and slow fine tuning does indeed contribute to the feeling of creating a picture. For me the GG is just an aid in a process that is mental in essence anyway, but it is true that, when shooting LF, there is a degree of interaction between the 2 steps, and the GG is always there as a friend showing us where we are.

Using a thick paper frame overlapped to the scene is another way of doing this and, to make a long story short, my contention is that you can in fact achieve the same without frame/GG at all.

Once this is achieved, step 2, the execution of the image (flat stitch or spherical stitch), is IMHO an un-important technical application of a well memorized routine. You can be more or less good at that and it is going to impact the image quality that you get of course.

One recent spherical stitch example of an image I believe I would have shot the same way if I had used a GG for composition and flat stitching for execution.



Cropping is IMHO part of both processes because it is hard to know exactly what will end up being in the frame with both techniques, although this can also pretty much be anticipated.

Regards,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 06:04:06 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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stever

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« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2009, 12:34:02 am »

yes, Bernard, an essay would be welcome
 
i've been informed by your posts and impressed with your images
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ErikKaffehr

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« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2009, 04:29:29 am »

Hi,

My point is not that panos (rotational or not) are in any way inferior to single-shot images. The only point is that at least when I'm shooting rotational panos my concern is to get the images I need to make the final picture in the computer. So I feel its like:



Art------------------------------------ workmanship -------------------------- Art
Conception--------------------------- Shooting the images ------------------ Assembly and cropping and final adjustments


Regarding really wide images beeing a gimmick I may or may not agree. The way I see it there is only one way to visually present a very wide pano and that is to project it with well made zooms and pans. The other way to do it is essentially making mural size prints, which is normally not very practical.

On the issue of workmanship vs. art I don't really feel any contradiction, we need workmanship to achieve our artistic ambition.


Best regards
Erik

Quote from: JeffKohn
I don't see why rotational panos would be any more workman-like or less artistic than flat stitches with rear movements. I could post an equally tedious list of the tasks required for a flat stitch, and that wouldn't prove a thing.

I would to agree that a lot panos are not very good; IMHO just shooting a really wide view is a visual gimmick but not much else.  Well-composed panos, on the other hand, are deceptively difficult and certainly every bit as much 'art' as single-shot photographs.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 05:58:17 am by ErikKaffehr »
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2009, 07:40:16 am »

One of the questions not answered here " is a digitar lens on a view camera higher IQ than a SLR lens on a SLR?" all other variables remaining the same. same DB/sensor etc. In other words is the time, inconvenience and cost worth the effort?
Marc
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Marc McCalmont

tho_mas

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« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2009, 10:25:55 am »

Quote from: marcmccalmont
One of the questions not answered here " is a digitar lens on a view camera higher IQ than a SLR lens on a SLR?"
at least I can tell you that the Digitar I use outperform the respective focal length lens in my gear (except at close distances). This applies to Contax lenses (which are very good yet) in use with a P45 and P21+. Don't know why it should be different on a "cropped" sensor. Maybe the AA filter softens the captures at the edges a bit more. On the other hand the image circle is so wide that I don't think so...

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ACH DIGITAL

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« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2009, 08:08:03 am »

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

I'd just point out that both focusing and alignment of lens and sensor plays a very major role in sharpness. There was an article here on LL by Joseph Holmes on maladjustment issues with both digital backs and digital lenses. Those articles are clearly worth reading.

http://www.josephholmes.com/news-medformatprecision.html

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik,

After reading Joseph Holmes article, makes think twice investing in such expensive equipment.
Looks like Mamiya solution is more secure, reliable and efective..

Antonio
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Antonio Chagin
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georgl

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« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2009, 04:27:14 pm »

"Could cheaper ShenHao prices result from the lack of spending on R&D?"

Slave labour - wooden field camera-production isn't automatized and therefore highly depends on labour costs. You can either use highly-trained craftsmen for decades capable of using complex machines like Ebony or simply try to imitate quality-craftmanship by strict selection-processes, make 10, throw 9 away... Buying cheap wood from unknown sources or cutting R&D...

Sorry, wasn't the point of the thread, just images of the Shen Hao and the Ebony (the "wooden Technika") popped into my head and another high-quality craftmanship crushed by slave labour...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 04:29:03 pm by georgl »
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eyeshigher1

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« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2009, 11:23:29 am »

I have now had a fitting made for a Nikon to Cambo ultima 5x4.

Using a 90mm digitar with a Nikon d2x (acr) and comparing the results against a leaf 22megapixel (lc11 ) the differences are minimal, apart from megapixels. I would presume even better results could be attained with nikon capture nx2.

Also the digitar is better than the nikon 85mm pce, but only slightly. With extra movements on the 5x4, the digitar's coverage etc wins. The pce for speed and convenience.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2009, 11:58:22 am by eyeshigher1 »
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2009, 01:00:26 pm »

Quote from: eyeshigher1
I've purchased Nikon's 85mm PC-E lens, and now beginning to wonder if using Schneider Digitars via 5x4 or Cambo x2pro would give noticable difference in detail/resolution. Studio

Will be upgrading to Nikon FX shortly.

any advice?

http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

Scroll down about half way for a comparison of the X-2 + dSLR + digitar lens versus a normal dSLR lens.

ACH DIGITAL

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« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2009, 01:12:07 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

Scroll down about half way for a comparison of the X-2 + dSLR + digitar lens versus a normal dSLR lens.


Thanks for the posting Doug!!
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2009, 02:10:17 pm »

Quote from: ACH DIGITAL
Thanks for the posting Doug!!

No problem.

Quick Shameless plug/disclaimer: we (Capture Integration) do sell, rent, and support Schneider, Cambo, and Canon. We put enormous effort into learning and testing these systems.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 04:54:18 pm by dougpetersonci »
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DesW

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« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2009, 02:54:07 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
http://www.captureintegration.com/tests/lens/

Scroll down about half way for a comparison of the X-2 + dSLR + digitar lens versus a normal dSLR lens.

Hi,

The link to the Digitar/ Canon File is kaput.

Des
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2009, 04:54:03 pm »

Quote from: DesW
Hi,

The link to the Digitar/ Canon File is kaput.

Des

Just checked them. I believe the links are fine. Depending on your browser you may need to right click (control click) and "Save Link As" in order to prevent the driver from trying to load the link as an image.

I'd be happy to send them to you by yousendit.com if you experience any further problems.

Edit: it does seem the file has somehow corrupted :-(. I'll upload a replacement if I have time next week. Sorry for the trouble.

Doug

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« Last Edit: July 18, 2009, 07:40:23 pm by dougpetersonci »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2009, 09:41:12 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
I believe the links are fine.
they aork here. However I can't open the Canon/Digitar file ( http://www.captureintegration.com/wp-conte..._X2_sch80mm.tif ). Photoshop displays a message telling me it's a unknown image format (even renaming doesn't work).
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bryanyc

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« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2009, 05:51:57 pm »

Since the topic is interesting and I have done / will be doing some work using these techniques I thought I would speak up.

In no particular order:

First: Ebony's are great quality and not expensive given what you are getting.  I have the non folding sw45 and used it extensively.  It is fast and a joy to use (the smell of the leather bellows alone makes me feel good).
The poster that said that it cannot do flat pano's because the back has only rise is incorrect: simply tilt the tripod head on its side and you have your back shift !  But I wouldn't dream of using a traditional view camera for a digital mf back.  Perhaps the arca 6x9...... but I would prefer to go to an Alpa or Cambo and do it properly, especially for the wide angles.....   And also: yes, there is the old saw about how taking a long time to consider and compose leads to a different type of image- but as important sometimes is speed- the fast set up and shooting of what is going to change 2 minutes from now, or where you might get kicked out if you are there for more that 10 minutes - or getting more than one shot an hour.  This seems to be a frequent occurrence in my experience.

As to the question of whether a digitar lens would give better results than a 90 canon tse on a Canon 5d2 I can say I wouldn't even bother testing this.  The 90 tse is perhaps my sharpest lens, the results from it are astounding, the images need hardly any sharpening, unlike my other lenses.  Then there is the convenience of a dedicated optic that automatically sets aperture, and probably cost much less AND has no klugey mounting system.  If I was comparing absolute quality of a digitar on medium format versus the 90 tse on a Canon I'm sure the digitar would be better, but then you have to factor cost, ease of use, weight, speed, usable ASA and a host of other factors, including possible focussing issues.  Wide angles would be another story, but again, I think the new 24TSE, which I just purchased and have begun testing, is a really great optic, probably the best wide canon has ever made.

I will be using the new 24 TSE (and the 45 & 90 TSE's)  to do flat stitching and, if necessary rotational panos.  I have done a large number of stitched shots in my career, with film and digital. Naturally I prefer flat when at all possible because of less perspective distortion (significant if you shoot architecture).  I notice that the above pano rig shown is using RRS equipment.  I will be ordering an L bracket for my new 5D2 tomorrow as well: I will calibrate a side slide on the clamp to maintain as close to exact camera body position when I shift the lens (shift lens to the right, camera same amount to left, then opposite for the second exposure).  These L brackets are a great solution (I used one for my x-pan) for rotational panos as they can position the camera vertical over the rotation point of the head.  One can eliminate the second stage rotational platform above the ball head if you have a leveling center column that can be had with a gitzo carbon fiber model (and perhaps other tripods),

As to the question about what is more "artistically" valid technique (1 shot, flat or stiched) I will add a few things.  There is a difference between seeing / composing the entire image on one glass image and shooting it in one shot as opposed to compositing the image from a number of shots on a computer no doubt.  Many many pano's, including flat stiched pano's, suffer from digititis, that unreal look (and I have done quite a few myself!) that is due to a variety of factors. In some sense there is a fracturing of reality when these techniques are used, starting with the element of time and so on (and this is a benefit if you are after this quality of "unreality").  As a side note, the lust for super high resolution tends to result in oversharp images that lack real atmosphere- just something to consider......

Stitching however allows one to make images that otherwise might not be possible, and that is a significant thing.  There are situations where you just would not be able to make an image without stitching and especially when you shoot architectural scenes and interiors like I do there are some images that can only be captured by stitching.  In these cases there is often distortion if you combine radically different perspectives.  This is definitely constructing an image that could not be otherwise captured.

As to previsualizing an image that you will assemble later: yes, one can to a degree.  I have done a lot of work in the old days shooting fuji 6x9's for interiors and architecture: and learned to capture what I was after quite well, even without being able to precisely frame it.  Then there is the comment from (I believe) Friedlander: I take pictures to see what things look like when photographed.  

To each their own.  For myself, I fall into a middle category.  I want high resolution but I want it flexible and portable as I travel a lot and sometimes time is limited.   Digitar lenses are the solution for the highest quality on medium format digital backs when you have lots of time, static subjects, or are in the studio- plus have a big bank account.  Otherwise, stitching 21 mpx 35 camera images with tilt shift lenses, carefully handled, can give excellent results, as can rotational panos with sharp lenses.
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