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Author Topic: Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR  (Read 5989 times)

jersey_emt

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« on: May 14, 2009, 06:12:45 pm »

I've been shooting with my Nikon D70s with the 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5 kit lens for a few years now, and it has served me well, but I think it's time for an upgrade. I'm definitely not 'tied' to the Nikon brand and as I only have the single lens, so switching brands is not an issue at all.

I do, however, have a list of specific features that I'd like my next DSLR to have. None of them are deal-breakers except for the maximum cost ($1,500 for the body, preferably under $1,000). I essentially am looking for the camera that fulfills the most of these desired features and preferences.

Here is what would make my 'Perfect DSLR' (in no specific order):
  • >= 10 megapixels, 12+ megapixels preferred. I don't think this is even an issue anymore -- are there even any current DSLR's that have less than 10 megapixels?
  • Ability to have the post-shot review on the LCD screen to display the captured image in black and white, while recording the actual image in RAW format. I enjoy taking B&W photographs, and being able to immediately view the results in B&W in camera, yet still have the option of processing it on the computer in full-color, would be wonderful.
  • Body/sensor-based image stabilization.
  • Easy and quick exposure compensation -- no digging through menus, just turn a dial, or hold a button and turn a dial.
  • Mirror lock-up -- again, easy and quick access is preferred.
  • Easy and quick ISO speed adjustment -- again, no digging through menus is preferred.
  • Acceptable high-ISO results. I don't think this will be a problem with any current DSLR -- as long as it is equal to or better than my current D70s, I will be happy.
  • Automatic exposure bracketing, minimum of three frames with adjustable 'spread' (0/+0.5/-0.5, 0/+1/-1, 0/+2/-2, etc.).
  • On-demand viewfinder grid lines.
  • Live-view LCD, the larger the better.
  • Built-in sensor dust control.
  • Tilting/swiveling LCD.
  • Spot metering.
  • Automatic rotation of images (orientation sensor). If the camera can also automatically rotate the information and menus displayed on the LCD based on whether the camera is being held horizontally or vertically it would be even better.
  • Cost of camera body is a maximum of $1,500.

I know that is a lot to ask for in a mid-range DSLR, and realize that there is no 'perfect camera' that will have every single one of these specific features even at any price. However, I am asking for your help in discovering which camera fulfills as many of these features as possible. Again, no single feature listed is a definite deal-breaker except for the cost -- they are just various features that would make a camera as perfect as possible for my specific preferences.
Thank you in advance for your knowledge and assistance.
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DarkPenguin

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 06:27:08 pm »

Oly E-3, E-30, E-620?

Canon and Nikon are completely out.  Pentax, Panasonic and Sony have some of the features.  Oly probably has most of them.

I'd get the Panasonic G1/GH1 before I went for the Oly.

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PeterAit

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 06:49:34 pm »

With respect, here's a suggestion. Stop obsessing about the trivial details of your equipment and work on your vision. Many of the greatest photos have been made with the most ordinary equipment. Master the camera you have!

Peter
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Ken Bennett

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 06:53:34 pm »

That's 15 items. The Canon 40D and 50D meet 12 of them -- they don't have sensor-based stabilization, a tilt-swivel LCD, and I'm not sure about the black-and-white thing (never tried it.) I suspect the Nikon D300 would fare about the same. All would have much better high-ISO quality than a D70s, and the other features are met in one way or another.

As long as these features are in no particular order, then almost any current DSLR will meet many or of them. However, if you really want sensor-stabilization and a tilt-LCD, more than anything else, then D.P. is correct that neither Nikon nor Canon will do that. The Olympus and the Pentax are both good (again, neither of them hits all 15.)

Really, if I had to start from scratch, I would try to handle as many cameras as possible and buy the one that felt the best in my hands.
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Er1kksen

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 07:14:40 pm »

I'd call the Pentax K20D a close-to-perfect match.

-14.6mp and it does quite well with them, I'd currently call it the highest image-quality APS-C camera
-Most modern cameras can do that if you set the shooting mode to black and white but also RAW, my K20D certainly can...
-In-body SR
-By default you hold the "exposure compensation" button and turn the front dial, but you can customize it to be set directly to the front or back dial in any mode
-Incorporated into the drive modes, which requires only two button presses to access
-You can set the front or back dials to change ISO directly in any mode, there's a dedicated "sensitivity priority" mode where you change ISO like you change aperture in Av, and there's the TAv mode where you set the shutter speed and aperture you want and the camera varies the ISO automatically to fit that, so you don't even have to bother changing it.
-I use it at 1600 all the time in good light and I've gotten away with 3200 under awful stage lighting with a little processing. The camera sets noise reduction to "off" at default to retain more detail, but you can turn it up if you really like to let the camera smear out all the noise (and everything else) like most cameras
-There's a dedicated bracketing button on the left side of the camera, and there are extensive options for the customization of the bracketing. You can even set the order in which it takes the different  exposures (dark first, light first, normal first, etc.)
-In the optical viewfinder? Good luck finding that on a consumer or semipro camera. Speaking of which, the VF is second only to the D300 in the semipro bracket. You get gridlines in live view by default
-The LCD is nice and big, it has live view but others on the market have better versions. You can't AF or do much with exposure
-It uses sensor-shake to clean dust off on startup, and if it persists it'll map it out and display the location of the dust on the sensor on the rear LCD to assist in cleaning (reversed so that it corresponds correctly)
-No tilt and swivel, sorry. The K20D is made to be tough and weathersealed and they probably felt that that wasn't going to be durable enough
-Spot metering is easily accessed through a switch on the top
-Auto rotation is a feature
-Cost? I got mine for $650 used, in perfect condition, with 8gb and 4gb sandisk cards. New, you can get them body only for a little over $700. Take that extra $800 and get yourself some nice glass, Pentax has some great stuff.

The Olympus options also have most of these features but imo the pentax offers the best overall value. I am also a longtime Olympus user, just to dispel any notions of bias. The K20D is really more on par with the E-3 than any of the other three, except that it's smaller, doesn't have the tilt-swivel LCD, has higher image quality at all ISOs, and has slower AF and shooting speed.

In short, if you need a speed demon get an E-3 or E-30, if you need something tough and weathersealed get the K20D or E-3, if you want the highest image quality and value and the controls that you asked for above, get the K20D, and if you need the smallest body you can get, get the E-620, though the K20D is also more compact than the other two Olys.
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DarkPenguin

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 08:13:34 pm »

Quote from: k bennett
As long as these features are in no particular order, then almost any current DSLR will meet many or of them. However, if you really want sensor-stabilization and a tilt-LCD, more than anything else, then D.P. is correct that neither Nikon nor Canon will do that. The Olympus and the Pentax are both good (again, neither of them hits all 15.)
I took the tilt LCD and sensor stabilization as being big wants.  If that isn't true then pretty much any camera will do.

Quote
Really, if I had to start from scratch, I would try to handle as many cameras as possible and buy the one that felt the best in my hands.
Always good plan.

Edit:  Somehow I clipped this ...

Quote
That's 15 items. The Canon 40D and 50D meet 12 of them -- they don't have sensor-based stabilization, a tilt-swivel LCD, and I'm not sure about the black-and-white thing (never tried it.) I suspect the Nikon D300 would fare about the same. All would have much better high-ISO quality than a D70s, and the other features are met in one way or another.
In a B+W mode my 40D shows a B+W image when it is set to RAW.  So that's covered.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 08:16:27 pm by DarkPenguin »
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Ken Bennett

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2009, 07:32:48 am »

Quote from: PeterAit
With respect, here's a suggestion. Stop obsessing about the trivial details of your equipment and work on your vision. Many of the greatest photos have been made with the most ordinary equipment. Master the camera you have!

With respect, the original poster didn't give any indication that his or her "vision" is faulty. While artists should always be pushing their vision, sometimes it's nice to upgrade the tools, too.

Are you still shooting with your D30? I'm not...
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250swb

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2009, 10:30:05 am »

The Olympus E3 has I think nearly all your requirements except the B&W review function. It also has the benefit of being weather sealed. The Olympus E30 I think has all of your requirements although 'Mirror Lock' like the E3 is a mirror preactivation, as it comes down immediately after the exposure. The Olympus E620 has a couple more pixels and most of your requirements. Olympus kit lenses are better than some manufacturers best, but they are slow-ish. Of the Olympus I'd go with the E620.

But an alternative that has lens IS and not body IS is the Panasonic G1. It covers all your requirements and is a great little camera. Within the same parameters I'm getting better and sharper images from my G1 and kit lenses than I am from my E3 and high grade lenses due to its weaker AA filter. Put a high grade Olympus lens on the G1 and it is even more stunning. The two Pana kit lenses, so far, are the 14-45 and 45-200mm, which in real world terms means you have two excellent quality pocketable lenses covering 28-400mm, and I reckon you'd get the G1/14-45 kit and then a 45-200mm for less than $1500. The 7-14mm has just been released but that would go over the budget.

Steve
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 10:32:29 am by 250swb »
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DarkPenguin

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2009, 12:06:09 pm »

Have you seen a price for that 7-14?

(And I agree about the G1.  It really is a nice camera.  Just a very limited lens selection without out using adapters.)
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Plekto

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« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2009, 01:27:42 pm »

Of course, he could go with a rangefinder.  That would get rid of several issues right there.  But Leica is about the only company doing this, and they cost a fortune.  No image stabilization, though.

My suggestion will seem a bit odd to some...

FILM.  That's right.  You read that correctly.  Film.    

Why?  Because he only wants 10-12MP, which is scanned 35mm film resolution.  Black and white film is easy to obtain and you can develop it yourself quite easily as a bonus.   This allows him to get nearly every option and desire that he needs other than IS in a camera.  In reading that list, kept reading "simple as possible" every other line.   But also he wants a proper "Pro" camera.  That leaves us with a very few choices.  The Sigma DP1/DP2 comes to mind, as does the G10 and a few others, but that's it.

http://www.adorama.com/SGVF21.html
Turns the Sigma pocket cameras into a rangefinder, essentially.

But there are tons of old film cameras that do nearly everything that he wants.  Drop it in a 35mm slide scanner and presto - good as digital.
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DarkPenguin

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2009, 02:54:59 pm »

Scanning film sucks.
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dalethorn

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2009, 03:38:57 pm »

Quote from: 250swb
.....and I reckon you'd get the G1/14-45 kit and then a 45-200mm for less than $1500.

I got the G1 for $629 U.S., added the 45-200 lens for $305, an extra Pana battery for $65, and a 16 gb Sandisk II card for $37.  Total $1036.
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250swb

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« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2009, 05:27:15 pm »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
Have you seen a price for that 7-14?

(And I agree about the G1.  It really is a nice camera.  Just a very limited lens selection without out using adapters.)

If the initial reports are correct the 7-14mm is better than the current Olympus 7-14mm, which in itself should render the Panasonic lens a world beater. But while there are currently only a couple of lenses for the G1, the availability of adapters make it a fun camera as well as a serious camera. Almost any old lens you have can be mounted on it, some technically good, some bad, but all with their own characteristics. If B&W is a main component of the criteria then surely a more artistic aspect to the camera's flexibility is a good thing? I'm having great fun with my 50mm Summicron on the G1, and am getting images far better than scanned film from it.

Steve

Er1kksen

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« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2009, 06:25:28 pm »

Quote from: 250swb
The Olympus E3 has I think nearly all your requirements except the B&W review function.
My old E-330 does that. Are you telling me the E-3 doesn't?  
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Plekto

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Specific features wanted in a low-cost DSLR
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2009, 08:50:18 pm »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
Scanning film sucks.

Scanning slides doesn't if you have a dedicated slide scanner.

Drop a stack in, set it up, come back.  Easily 12MP+ quality with no fuss.(2400dpi scanned film is ~2400X3400 or about 10MP)  That of course has no moires of Bayer losses or issues, so it's closer to: 3000X4250 for the best DSLR and some Photoshop or other program doing post-processing.  13-14MP, give or take.

I also like slides well, because they are slides.  Digital projectors have a long way to go to equal slides.
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2009, 10:06:45 pm »

Plekto, my experience with the 1Ds (11MP) vs scanned 35mm film is quite different. The 1Ds beats scanned film quite handily, both on-screen and in prints. A 35mm film scan may have more than 11 million pixels, but the 1Ds capture has more detail and actual image information.
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250swb

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« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2009, 06:02:24 am »

Quote from: Er1kksen
My old E-330 does that. Are you telling me the E-3 doesn't?  

Yeah, it does really, I just forgot it did, never having used that end of the menu it was an oversight.

Steve

Al Wang

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« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2009, 03:54:31 pm »

As far as I can tell, the Sony a300/a350 hits everything on your list except for mirror lockup.  The only minor quibble I'd make is that while you can selectively bracket, the maximum bracket range is a relatively modest 0.7 EV.

The a300/a350 are about to be replaced by the just-announced a330/a380, cameras that are even more geared to the beginner photographer: they have very few improvements and some minor drawbacks.  If you are a more experienced shooter, I'd probably suggest picking up one of the older models instead once stores start to clear inventory and drop prices.  Even at today's prices, they're great value.

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DarkPenguin

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« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2009, 04:02:07 pm »

Quote from: Al Wang
As far as I can tell, the Sony a300/a350 hits everything on your list except for mirror lockup.  The only minor quibble I'd make is that while you can selectively bracket, the maximum bracket range is a relatively modest 0.7 EV.

The a300/a350 are about to be replaced by the just-announced a330/a380, cameras that are even more geared to the beginner photographer: they have very few improvements and some minor drawbacks.  If you are a more experienced shooter, I'd probably suggest picking up one of the older models instead once stores start to clear inventory and drop prices.  Even at today's prices, they're great value.
Be sure to check the viewfinder's first.
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250swb

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« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2009, 05:18:24 pm »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
Be sure to check the viewfinder's first.

Viewfinders are important. I think it is only the Olympus E3 and the Panasonic G1 that have 100% coverage of the cameras mentioned so far.

Steve
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