Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Motos, Moving Photos  (Read 8370 times)

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #20 on: May 15, 2009, 12:24:00 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
There are just so many hours in the day, and there are a million details just for the stills part. In this last job, I watched the film crew, and the myriad of Details for their job alone would have made my head explode.

It's so easy to just sit here and say, "Oh, we'll do the video too". Until your ass is on the line,


There are some still photographers that feel the same way about retouching, placing a light, setting the shutter speed on the camera, or even driving to the studio, so everyone works differently.

There is also directors like Sodenberg and Robert Rodriquez that don't have any issue picking up a camera and shooting a scene, or Wonka Wai shooting a still advertising campaign for IZOD.

When those guys cross the lines of job description or mediums they're called visionaries.

Talent  works in both stills and motion and I don't think being the caterer really equates to learning how to shoot a different format of camera.

But yes, trying to physically do both can be difficult and it takes a learning curve.

The KEY to this is to NOT become marginalized.   Right now if the still campaign drives the look of the video and your the still photographer then life is good, but more and more the motion is driving the stills.

At that point you don't want to be the guy that comes in and just still photographs what the Director or DP left them.  At that point the still photographer is working with  table scraps and nobody wants to be in that position  . . . plus it pays a lot less.

You want to be the chef, not the bus boy.  (oops we're back to the food analogy again).

I've shot projects where I employed two camera operators and a DP but  still picked up the motion camera to shoot a sequence I didn't think translated well from just explaining what I wanted, so shooting it got the point across, also it was my project so I want it to look the way I want it to look.

motion

Everybody's different, everybody has different dreams, but I also know that everything changes.

When I saw the first still image on a computer, manipulated in photoshop I said If I have to spend my days staring into a teevee screen then I'll quit, cause that's not my role.  Well I was wrong and now I spend a lot of time working with a lot of different teevee screens.

We adapt, or we disappear.

Personally I hope no still photographer moves to motion, I hope all motion guys stay out of shooting stills, but I also want world peace, lower taxes and my own Gulfstream.

JRR
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 03:19:46 pm by James R Russell »
Logged

arashm

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2009, 12:37:30 pm »

James
I should have just asked you to write what I had in mind cuz I think you just said it so much better than I did
am
Logged

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2009, 03:26:56 pm »

Quote from: arashm
James
I should have just asked you to write what I had in mind cuz


Iill tell ya, anyone that makes equipment needs to start looking at lights instead of cameras, especially hmi's that are small and light, like those Broncolors.

I've got one of them, will buy more, though getting information from Sinar Bron is like finding out where Putin has dinner.

In fact if any of these dealers are still talking to the Mac group, tell profoto to ramp up production on thier HMI's.  They had them, they dropped them.  


JRR
Logged

Snook

  • Guest
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #23 on: May 15, 2009, 03:36:18 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
There are some still photographers that feel the same way about retouching, placing a light, setting the shutter speed on the camera, or even driving to the studio, so everyone works differently.

There is also directors like Sodenberg and Robert Rodriquez that don't have any issue picking up a camera and shooting a scene, or Wonka Wai shooting a still advertising campaign for IZOD.

When those guys cross the lines of job description or mediums they're called visionaries.

Talent  works in both stills and motion and I don't think being the caterer really equates to learning how to shoot a different format of camera.

But yes, trying to physically do both can be difficult and it takes a learning curve.

The KEY to this is to NOT become marginalized.   Right now if the still campaign drives the look of the video and your the still photographer then life is good, but more and more the motion is driving the stills.

At that point you don't want to be the guy that comes in and just still photographs what the Director or DP left them.  At that point the still photographer is working with  table scraps and nobody wants to be in that position  . . . plus it pays a lot less.

You want to be the chef, not the bus boy.  (oops we're back to the food analogy again).

I've shot projects where I employed two camera operators and a DP but  still picked up the motion camera to shoot a sequence I didn't think translated well from just explaining what I wanted, so shooting it got the point across, also it was my project so I want it to look the way I want it to look.

motion

Everybody's different, everybody has different dreams, but I also know that everything changes.

When I saw the first still image on a computer, manipulated in photoshop I said If I have to spend my days staring into a teevee screen then I'll quit, cause that's not my role.  Well I was wrong and now I spend a lot of time working with a lot of different teevee screens.

We adapt, or we disappear.

Personally I hope no still photographer moves to motion, I hope all motion guys stay out of shooting stills, but I also want world peace, lower taxes and my own Gulfstream.

JRR

Most 80's and 90's BIG name photographers have just about all gone to video and it was the wise and obviuos upgrade to being a photographer.

When I was doing the Calvin Klein ads with Bruce Weber in the late 80's he was also doing short films. HE was working on a Chet Baker film during the CK and Ralph Lauren shoots we were doing at the time.
He also was doing a shrot film called Broken Noses about boxers that was interesting and was lit like his photographic work at the time.
Herb Ritts and Mathew Ralston to name a couple. Unfortunately Herb is no longer with us. Mike Meyers who shoots just about every top music video was also a photography at one time or another. Music Videos are the easiest to get into b/c they are like moving Fashion shoots. Movies and Commercial TV ads are quite abit different.
Nick Knight is all a GENIUS who started out as a photographer and is doing some amazing stuff both in Photography and Video.
That guy just oooozes creativity!!!
I guess it is where you want to go, but having the Video under the Belt could make you get into another whole world of work.
I am starting to do some Music videos recently for local artist. But it is just recently getting my hands wet. I like music videos becasue I can still have a fashion point of view which is where I come from...:+}

Snook

Turned 41 today...:+}
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 03:37:58 pm by Snook »
Logged

arashm

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #24 on: May 15, 2009, 03:46:44 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
Iill tell ya, anyone that makes equipment needs to start looking at lights instead of cameras, especially hmi's that are small and light, like those Broncolors.

I've got one of them, will buy more, though getting information from Sinar Bron is like finding out where Putin has dinner.

In fact if any of these dealers are still talking to the Mac group, tell profoto to ramp up production on thier HMI's.  They had them, they dropped them.  


JRR


funny you should mention this...
the only light purchases I've had this last year or so has been kino flo's
can't shoot video with strobes, but I can shoot photo's with Tungsten/HMI/Kino
plus makes your set video friendly should you want to roll 10 seconds on it or something like that.

Happy Birthday snook        
make sure you get some cake, it's good luck
am
Logged

Snook

  • Guest
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2009, 04:32:45 pm »

Quote from: arashm
funny you should mention this...
the only light purchases I've had this last year or so has been kino flo's
can't shoot video with strobes, but I can shoot photo's with Tungsten/HMI/Kino
plus makes your set video friendly should you want to roll 10 seconds on it or something like that.

Happy Birthday snook        
make sure you get some cake, it's good luck
am

AM Thanks for the Birthday wish and thanks for sending me those movies, Very cool. Now I can see how that would help/be done in same session and lighting...:+}
I guess that means Hot lights are going to be the "Hot" item, no pun intended...:+]

Snook
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2009, 04:50:52 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
I see the value in discussing all forms of professional photography, especially on the high end.

Quite honeslty the RED is not much different than the meidum format business model.  It's expensive compared to Canon and the japanese makes, it has a superior image quality and raw format, but is also requires a lot of proprietary software to view and process the files, and in ways is slower and less mobile than the newer high def video cameras.
I have been told by a few users that it also has an over heating problem of the sensor when you capture for longer than 5 minutes.
Is that correct?
Logged

arashm

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2009, 05:17:07 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I have been told by a few users that it also has an over heating problem of the sensor when you capture for longer than 5 minutes.
Is that correct?

as a RED user (renter) I can tell you that, that is not the case at all, we've had full ( and I mean 14 hour full) days of shooting with it.
the only problem I've encountered with them was one faulty battery charger where we had to wedge a piece of paper between the battery and charger so it could charge.
but this sort of thing is unfortunately a possibility with rental gear.
The only other challenge with RED is media (hard drive) consumption.
am
Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2009, 06:01:08 pm »

Quote from: lisa_r
Ziocan, you should go back to the newstand and have another look.
I have that Esquire sitting right here, and the IQ on the cover looks as good as the rest of the Esqurie covers. That is to say, it looks quite good. Nothing to complain about. Plus, look how much BUZZ it generated for Esquire. In this day of sagging news stand sales, that BUZZ is a Very Big Deal. Men's mags are dropping like files. Even Playboy is cutting back their number of issues per year. No more 12 monthly issues...

On the other hand, I think some of the images inside  the Esquire spread are a bit soft looking. But then again, some photos in many spreads printed in magazines end up looking soft regardless of camera or format. But again, I think this issue is a BUZZ generator, and not supposed to be the pinncale of printed IQ. And it leads the readers of the magazine to their web site to check out the videos too...not bad marketing, IMO. If I knew that Esquire was going to have some cool moving image stuff on their site every month, shot by a good photographer, I'd be there every month to check it out. the video has got a cool look, and I'm glad they did it in greyscale instead of color.

I agree some guys in this thread seem to have head in the sand syndrome about video being viable for print guys now, and about it being a good tool for still guys to learn, and it's a little silly. You're too sensitive ;-)

[And on a side note, I was recently in touch with someone who was shooting MF stills for peanuts and competing with 5 billion other guys in NY all doing the same thing, and he recently bought the Red and now shoots video. Oh, and he just bought a house with all the money he's generating by shooting the video now. Would not have happened if he'd stayed shooting girls on a seamless for the web in ny. There's too much competition, and the rates are not where they should be.]
I was at the news stand today and I gave a second look. And you are right, the cover is fine. Though the story inside still looks powershot like.
My point was that, i do not understand all this fuss about red cameras that is going o change photographers life and I think still images should be still taken with a proper camera. Beside that Esquire cover may not be shot with the RED. Anyway it does not really matter what your friend did or the esquire photographer did. Shooting motion and getting hired for doing it, does not have anything to do with having this or that camera in the closet. It is simply a matter of doing what you like and a state of mind that tells you I would like to shot video and you just take the necessary steps to do it, which does not mean having the video camera.

I'm about 43 now, I shot and edited my first short movie in super 8  when I was 12 and few others followed. I directed my first commercial for TV in Europe when I was 22 and few others followed. Shot short movies for festivals, been director of photography in 35mm film for other directors quite a few times and directed a couple of music videos myself, without the need of owning any motion camera a part for the one I take on holidays.
Beside that, I have been taking photos (also on seamless in NY LOL) and despite that I own houses in 3 continents include an apartment few blocks from central park. Without the need of owning a RED camera.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:04:34 pm by ziocan »
Logged

Snook

  • Guest
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2009, 06:13:19 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
I was at the news stand today and I gave a second look. And you are right, the cover is fine. Though the story inside still looks powershot like.
My point was that, i do not understand all this fuss about red cameras that is going o change photographers life and I think still images should be still taken with a proper camera. Beside that Esquire cover may not be shot with the RED. Anyway it does not really matter what your friend did or the esquire photographer did. Shooting motion and getting hired for doing it, does not have anything to do with having this or that camera in the closet. It is simply a matter of doing what you like and a state of mind that tells you I would like to shot video and you just take the necessary steps to do it, which does not mean having the video camera.

I'm about 43 now, I shot and edited my first short movie in super 8  when I was 12 and few others followed. I directed my first commercial for TV in Europe when I was 22 and few others followed. Shot short movies for festivals, been director of photography in 35mm film for other directors quite a few times and directed a couple of music videos myself, without the need of owning any motion camera a part for the one I take on holidays.
Beside that, I have been taking photos (also on seamless in NY LOL) and despite that I own houses in 3 continents include an apartment few blocks from central park. Without the need of owning a RED camera.

I see it like this if you do not understand the "Big" Deal.
Where I live they spend a lot of money shooting TV commercials then they shoot a whole day , with me, to get the print campaign. The print Campaign is usually with the SAME idea as the Commercial. So it is logical if they can save $$$$$$ grabbing a still from the Commerical and use it for the print ad. That way they save $$$$$$ on the extra day.
Ziocan, is that clear now?
The James Bond is perfect example. No it is not going to happen tomorrow but they are already tetsting the waters and it will be done sooner than earlier. Am I scared... No? Not every ad campaign comes with a a TV commercial or Vice a versa. But it is a beginning of the end of 2X day for "Some" campaigns.
Not sure what you are shooting but that is the potential scenario I see and that WILL start to happen. I get paid quite nicely to shoot in my studio and would lose a lot of work if this happened. So would A LOT of guys doing the same.
The only ones benefiting would be clients, just like the change from film to digital and now they don't have ANY expenses for film or polaroid. The same will happen with this for sure.

Snook
Logged

lisa_r

  • Guest
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2009, 06:40:56 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
Idirected a couple of music videos myself, without the need of owning any motion camera a part for the one I take on holidays.
Beside that, I have been taking photos (also on seamless in NY LOL) and despite that I own houses in 3 continents include an apartment few blocks from central park. Without the need of owning a RED camera.

ziocan, maybe you missed my point. My point is not about OWNING anything. It is about seeing opportunities down other avenues, and taking advantage of them. A guy was tired of doing one thing, and the market was saturated with competition, then he changes direction (and cameras) and is having a great time now, and making more money. That's all. I guess you don't need to be told this, but I'm pointing out to some in this thread that there is no reason to be scared of the new tool/camera just because it shoots video. It could actually help you grow your business in unexpected ways.

Anyway, again I think the thing about the Esquire stuff is that it generated good buzz marketing. I'm sure this is not the only nerdy thread on the web discussing that issue.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 06:45:47 pm by lisa_r »
Logged

arashm

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 145
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #31 on: May 15, 2009, 08:01:12 pm »

Ziocan
I actually agree with you on the fact that one will not get booked for owning a RED or a P95++,
one gets and should get hired for what they can bring to the table, I don't own a MFDB even though I'm a frequent user, and I don't own a RED, again rent it when I or my client needs it.
how you write treatments, handle clients both in prepro meetings and on set and how you handle the post goes way way more than any one piece of gear.
and my note to other people is that these 2 worlds have collided, like it or not.
I for one have decided to take advantage of it, and really do enjoy it.
am

Logged

ziocan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 426
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2009, 12:18:01 am »

Quote from: lisa_r
ziocan, maybe you missed my point. My point is not about OWNING anything. It is about seeing opportunities down other avenues, and taking advantage of them. A guy was tired of doing one thing, and the market was saturated with competition, then he changes direction (and cameras) and is having a great time now, and making more money. That's all. I guess you don't need to be told this, but I'm pointing out to some in this thread that there is no reason to be scared of the new tool/camera just because it shoots video. It could actually help you grow your business in unexpected ways.

Anyway, again I think the thing about the Esquire stuff is that it generated good buzz marketing. I'm sure this is not the only nerdy thread on the web discussing that issue.
we may have missed all each others point. LOL what ever that means.
What really surprise me of the majority of the folks on this thread, it is that they seems of discovering motion picture as an alternative or way to evolve just recently. maybe I always took it for granted, but my real life fellows photographers, with which I grown up since the late '80ies between, paris, amsterdam, milan, tokyo and NY had always considered motion picture as something to do or that we should do and at the end most of us did.
that red can grab stills from a video has nothing to do with opportunities. those existed already 20 years ago.

I had forgot about this. I published my first cover with 8 pages fashion story, grabbing frames from a video camera for 20 ANS magazine in 1999, the editor in chief she did not like it, yet she published it because she felt it was the right thing to do. Tom Munroe did it for L'Uomo Vogue two years earlier. Pretty amazing story by the way. Both my story and Munroe's were pixelate like hell, but did not look half baked as the esquire's one.

if someone think video may be an opportunity, do it, but do it only if we think we are going to love doing it. otherwise is going to be like shooting MF back on seamless in NY for peanuts all over again.

as for snook, if you think that someone is going to steal your job grabbing frames from his/her footage, does not sound like kids begining of shooting web catalogues on seamless with a 1500$ canon 10d for 500 bucks a day, all over again?
the castle is always under siege.
but I'm sure you know it.

BTW,  we can rent a good video camera for 300$ a day.
And NYU kids have been shooting 16mm with their friends on washington square NY, or european kids on the streets of Paris since when I can remember.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2009, 12:26:28 am by ziocan »
Logged

TMARK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1841
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2009, 04:17:12 pm »

Quote from: arashm
as a RED user (renter) I can tell you that, that is not the case at all, we've had full ( and I mean 14 hour full) days of shooting with it.
the only problem I've encountered with them was one faulty battery charger where we had to wedge a piece of paper between the battery and charger so it could charge.
but this sort of thing is unfortunately a possibility with rental gear.
The only other challenge with RED is media (hard drive) consumption.
am

I've never run the Red over 5 minutes.  5 minutes is 5 - 6 pages of a script, which is really too long for one take.  Even Gus Van Zant long takes aren't 5 minutes.  We do long over the shoulder steadycam stuff, walking down a whole block while some clown sings some crappy song to playback, but it sure is not 5 minutes.  That being said, we shoot long days (non-union) with no problem.  The only problem we've had with the Red is that one of our Red drives drops frames when being jostled violently.  We switch to the cards and its fine.


Logged

TMARK

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1841
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2009, 04:27:21 pm »

Quote from: ziocan
if someone think video may be an opportunity, do it, but do it only if we think we are going to love doing it. otherwise is going to be like shooting MF back on seamless in NY for peanuts all over again.

Yes.  To do video well is very hard work. I am sure there will one day be a flood of fresh Brooks/SVA/SCAD grads lining up to shoot uninspired crap for clients that just want "content."  I'm hoping the recession will shake out some of these clients that need "content" to keep ads from touching each other.

Yeah, you have to love video like you love photography.  Its too much work to not love it, and if its bad, its really bad.
Logged

Yanick Dery

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
    • http://www.yanickdery.com
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #35 on: May 16, 2009, 08:20:03 pm »

I have one client who wanted to do some still and moving images. Look at this http://www.yanickdery.com/projects/adverti...-4/index-01.htm



And I just send my latest .mov to a regular magazine I am working for in Montreal.

James R Russell

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 992
    • http://www.russellrutherford.com/
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2009, 10:42:00 am »

Quote from: arashm
the only light purchases I've had this last year or so has been kino flo's
can't shoot video with strobes, but I can shoot photo's with Tungsten/HMI/Kino
plus makes your set video friendly should you want to roll 10 seconds on it or something like that.



The first thing every still photographer says to the talent on their first motion project is, "you've moved out of the key light, out of the key light, no . . . get back in the key light".

There is a reason that a small Hollywood  insert stage will hold a Peterbuilt, because the difference between a wide horizontal to working a tight vertical are substantial.

Then once you get the hang of it, going to vertical seems limited, because horizontal offers an expanded visual story, if that makes sense.

In the last few years more and more of our still work is shot horizontal, maybe because the AD's are working on cinema displays, maybe because web is much more a part of the media play than print, but where the ratio use to be 5 to one vertical to horizontal, it's now the opposite.

But, the biggest leap from still to motion, isn't in the framing, or the lighting, it's just how the story is told, or the fact that you really can tell a story, instead of just shooting something pretty.

The other leap is to make sure you do have a story to tell and something that binds it, whether it's visual, voice, or music, hopefully all three.   Something has to bind it.

A few years ago I had one client request that we shoot a video with a still project and I asked for a script,  with the response, "well just use talking points".  So after storyboarding, shooting, to the first edit I made the call the to the client that went like this;

"Well, you have 25 great 10 second spots but not a cohesive 3 minute movie".  So we had to do it the backwards way and write a script to what we had, then shoot some more to fill in the blanks."

The big difference (at least to me) in the mediums of still vs. motion is the amount of footage it takes to tell the story.   When we sit down to do the first cut, to get a a finished 60 second piece, I'm always amazed that I have a 3 or 4 minute cut and I think I'll never get this down to 60 seconds.

By the time you get to the final cut, I'm stretching to get to 40 seconds, much less a minute.  You really can't ever have too much footage.

You can stretch it by repeating the same visual story, or through titles, transitions or just slowing things up, but it always looks stretched.  

Now all of this will change as web spots become even more common, in the same way that the pace of television and movies have changed through the years.   The viewer is much more sophisticated than most people give credit and anything predicable, anything that is slow or flat footed, looses
it's appeal quickly.

But regarding technique, there is something to be said for a still camera that shoots motion, or a motion camera that can shoot usable stills.  Having one lighting setup that works for both can save hours, even days and I'd rather switch cameras than switch lights.  Trying to match flash to continuous is very difficult.  It can be done, but it's hard.

Yes, you can rent it all, but renting equipment usually gives you a reason not to explore or test for yourself, owning forces you to get to work, to make use of your investment.
 

JR
Logged

elitegroup

  • Guest
Motos, Moving Photos
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2009, 11:47:36 am »

Quote from: arashm
funny you should mention this...
the only light purchases I've had this last year or so has been kino flo's
can't shoot video with strobes, but I can shoot photo's with Tungsten/HMI/Kino
plus makes your set video friendly should you want to roll 10 seconds on it or something like that.

Has anyone here used and can offer a review on the Kelvin TILE??? are these usable for stills as well as film? http://elementlabs.com/KelvinTILE.html
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up