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Author Topic: Motos, Moving Photos  (Read 8369 times)

Tim Lüdin

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Motos, Moving Photos
« on: May 14, 2009, 04:10:41 pm »

Hi guys

A few months back we were all discussing the future of photography because of the RED-One Camera.
We talked about the possebility of merging still and moving cameras into one tool fits all thing.
As a RED-One owner I several times stated that I think this could be happening sooner than we like or want it.
Even in the High-End Market where we usualy use MF cameras.

Now check the link to Greg Williams's work. He shot the last Bond movieposters and had a double spread sheet in the Vogue all shot on his RED-One. The Future is already here. Crazy
He calls those kinda pictures Motos. They can be used as billboards and moving images at the same time. They did it on the new Bond already.

Go check it:

http://www.gregfoto.com/portfolio/index.php?album_id=44

So what do you think guys? Crazy times...
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 06:29:24 pm by Tim Lüdin »
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2009, 04:44:34 pm »

My honest opinion - it means nothing. And in other news today, the city of Ghent is going vegetarian: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8046970.stm
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gwhitf

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« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2009, 06:10:53 pm »

I saw the Esquire cover on the stands last night. I walked by it, and thought, "Big f'ing deal. So what if it was shot on a Red; it's still just another bad celebrity cover". I guess I understand your point, but I simply don't think that Technology is ever going to really influence who gets hired for a gig. You get hired for your eye, and your attitude, and your ability to make things happen. Nobody ever scored a big national gig because the AD said, "Oh, wow, he knows how to run a video camera as well". I just feel like when you start placing emphasis on the gear or technique, your priorities are misplaced in a big way.
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2009, 06:28:41 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
I saw the Esquire cover on the stands last night. I walked by it, and thought, "Big f'ing deal. So what if it was shot on a Red; it's still just another bad celebrity cover". I guess I understand your point, but I simply don't think that Technology is ever going to really influence who gets hired for a gig. You get hired for your eye, and your attitude, and your ability to make things happen. Nobody ever scored a big national gig because the AD said, "Oh, wow, he knows how to run a video camera as well". I just feel like when you start placing emphasis on the gear or technique, your priorities are misplaced in a big way.

I'm not a tech geek at all if you mean that.
I was just surprised that a high-end mag like the Vogue or Esquire starts to accept files from a RED-One.
Or even accepts a editorial shooting with a RED-One at the first place.
If someone would have told us something like that 1 or 2 years ago everybody on this formum would have jumped on him.

I'm just excited that the change is coming so fast. And that technology realy doesn't count that much anymore. Just go out and take the damn picture. And we are in the MF forum here. Always talking about 40K backs etc.. Damn my whole RED kit cost about 50K and I could shoot a Hollywood movie with it and a vogue editorial the next day.

Now try that with your new Hassy 3d what ever 60MP back.
You gotta admit that this has to bring out a little techgeekeness in everbody of us.

Tim


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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2009, 06:46:43 pm »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
I could shoot a Hollywood movie with it and a vogue editorial the next day.

Do people really have to talk about Red in this forum? There's a dedicated forum for video and this subject has already been covered ad nauseum.
And as for the Red replacing a medium format camera... As for as I know you can't even use flash with it, right? Or expose for 30 seconds ...or 1/4000? Not to mention the size and weight of the thing. Case closed.
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ziocan

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« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2009, 11:01:35 pm »

Quote from: Tim Lüdin
Hi guys

A few months back we were all discussing the future of photography because of the RED-One Camera.
We talked about the possebility of merging still and moving cameras into one tool fits all thing.
As a RED-One owner I several times stated that I think this could be happening sooner than we like or want it.
Even in the High-End Market where we usualy use MF cameras.

Now check the link to Greg Williams's work. He shot the last Bond movieposters and had a double spread sheet in the Vogue all shot on his RED-One. The Future is already here. Crazy
He calls those kinda pictures Motos. They can be used as billboards and moving images at the same time. They did it on the new Bond already.

Go check it:

http://www.gregfoto.com/portfolio/index.php?album_id=44

So what do you think guys? Crazy times...
the moving heads are pretty cool. a very nice gimmick indeed.
the stills taken with megan fox remind me of my Canon S40 Powershot 4mp, circa 2003.
the images per se are nice, yet they could as well been grabbed by an assistant between takes. with a new DSLR they would have turned out better.

the esquire cover seen on the new stand, looks like a Canon photocopy circa 1994.

I would not be surprised if those immage would have turned out better with a 5d2.


it will work, one day..... maybe soon, maybe later. who knows. it does not really matter, because when it will be ready, we can just get it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2009, 11:11:33 pm by ziocan »
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ziocan

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« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2009, 11:10:47 pm »

Quote from: foto-z
Do people really have to talk about Red in this forum? There's a dedicated forum for video and this subject has already been covered ad nauseum.
And as for the Red replacing a medium format camera... As for as I know you can't even use flash with it, right? Or expose for 30 seconds ...or 1/4000? Not to mention the size and weight of the thing. Case closed.
yeah! the things look like something in between Terminator and Robocop.
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bcooter

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« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2009, 02:43:23 am »

Quote from: foto-z
Do people really have to talk about Red in this forum? There's a dedicated forum for video and this subject has.


So Graham, what do you want to call this section?  The almost 645 medium format section.  How about the 12 year old 6x6 camera section?

Recently you posted some wierd issue you had with your Sinar software so how bout moving that to the software, computer section?

Really, does it make a difference what is on the front end of a digital sensor, moving or stills and what's with the head in the sand attitude?

Whether you or anyone like it or not moving images are here to stay and the faster still photographers expand their skill set and branch out into new mediums the better they off they will be in art and commerce.

B
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Carsten W

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« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2009, 03:46:31 am »

Quote from: foto-z
. As for as I know you can't even use flash with it, right?

Right, but it does accept more light in general  If there really were a trend in this direction, people would have to start replacing their lighting equipment, it's true.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2009, 04:26:00 am »

Quote from: bcooter
Really, does it make a difference what is on the front end of a digital sensor, moving or stills and what's with the head in the sand attitude?

So you don't see the value in having subforums at all? I find the Red camera very interesting, like many other things, but I don't understand why people keep posting about it here. It's like going to a Ferrari forum and posting about electric cars like the Tesla and constantly predicting that Ferrari's time is up, how they all wasted their money on old technology, etc.
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bcooter

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« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2009, 04:47:19 am »

Quote from: foto-z
So you don't see the value in having subforums at all? I find the Red camera very interesting, like many other things, but I don't understand why people keep posting about it here. It's like going to a Ferrari forum and posting about electric cars like the Tesla and constantly predicting that Ferrari's time is up, how they all wasted their money on old technology, etc.

I see the value in discussing all forms of professional photography, especially on the high end.

Quite honeslty the RED is not much different than the meidum format business model.  It's expensive compared to Canon and the japanese makes, it has a superior image quality and raw format, but is also requires a lot of proprietary software to view and process the files, and in ways is slower and less mobile than the newer high def video cameras.

It doesn't mean it doesn't have a place, but like medium format it can get maginalized quickly depending on what the Japanese makers decide to produce.

As far as imagery for commerce and editorial, don't think for a moment that video and even video screen grabs are not coming at us.  I see more and more of my work, even very large budget production work purposed for web display over print and that requires less megapixels and more flexibility.

Once the computer is the main medium, video will become even more commonplace.

Lately, like most of us, I am inundated by retouchers, suppliers and crews all looking for work.

The first thing I tell every retoucher or digital lab is to learn final cut pro, avid and the process of of color correcting, cataloging and storing moving imagery.

Also like everyone else I see a lot of resistance from clients on cost or better put, ROI.  They want video, they want stills and they want them both, pretty much during the same produciton.

Clients that push back over still digital fees will not blink at adding a dp, a sound specialist and the post produciton required to cut a video, web or broadcast.  

I know this will go against the grain of some of the people here, but for the commercial/editorial photographer our rolls are changing to that of digital artists vs. still photographer, at least for the ones that want to survive or better yet, prosper.

We have done this to ourselves.  Still production at almost any level has grown to the point it mimicks small motion/cinema produciton.  We have larger crews, larger studios, more expensive equipment and longer post production periods, which all adds up to costs.  What I use to shoot for 20k 7 years ago, just scratches the surface of what it takes today, so when projects get into the 6 figure range clients expect more.

The photographer, digital artist, post production company that can accomodate this will have a very strong sales position to make, so after the long answer, I'll go back to the short answer, of yes I do see a great deal of parallels between the two mediums, in style, function, production values and final consumer display.

B
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bcooter

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« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2009, 04:54:55 am »

Quote from: gwhitf
I saw the Esquire cover on the stands last night. I walked by it, and thought, "Big f'ing deal. So what if it was shot on a Red; it's still just another bad celebrity cover". I guess I understand your point, but I simply don't think that Technology is ever going to really influence who gets hired for a gig. You get hired for your eye, and your attitude, and your ability to make things happen. Nobody ever scored a big national gig because the AD said, "Oh, wow, he knows how to run a video camera as well". I just feel like when you start placing emphasis on the gear or technique, your priorities are misplaced in a big way.


I feel the same way about the Esquire cover, but I doubt if Esquire feels the same way.

Yes it's just another celeb hack job on white, but it's a start of combining interactive motion with print stills and this is just the beginning.

You may not get hired for your ability to work or own  a camera, but you do get hired by what you show to potential clients and if you want to show stills then fine, keep at it, because I know you have had great success, but that doesn't mean it will last and definatley doesn't mean that client expectations aren't changing fast.

Who would have thought 7 years ago that you would show a client every frame on a 30" monitor?  Today, that's commonplace.

Who would have thoght 7 years ago that mid level, under the radar commercial still phtogrpahy produciton would break 6 figures?

Who would have ever dreamed that retouchers would charge more for an image than a photographer?

It's changing whether any of us like it or not.

B
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2009, 05:18:04 am »

Thanks B for the backup, couldn't have said it any better.
Look guys I didn't start this thread to talk about the RED in general. I took it here because Greg Williams is a high-end shooter who usualy uses
MFDB. And now he starts using let's say other tools, that only a few months ago nowbody every would have thougt of.

I also brought it here because of you guys. This is the forum section I read and where the "cool" people hang out. People who have realy some things to say. People who work in the same
field or level I do. People I realy got to like a lot over the last 7 years.

So this isn't about the RED it's more about the future and where we all could be going soon.

Remember, RED will bring out the Epic series with 24MP FF, 60MP MF 645 chip. And yes it will have a flash plugg and it will synch perfectly with your strobes.
And it will come out this year. So again, the future will be here sooner than expected. Like B said, the market is changing allready.
What do you think will happen when tools like the Epic will hit the market?

It wont affect every part of the photographic market but it will have an impact on some for sure.
I also think that photographers must become DPs and vice versa. And in the end we all will become camera artists or digital multi media producers how ever you wanna call it.
Probably sooner than some here would like it.

Tim
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 05:19:20 am by Tim Lüdin »
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lisa_r

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« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2009, 10:21:54 am »

Ziocan, you should go back to the newstand and have another look.
I have that Esquire sitting right here, and the IQ on the cover looks as good as the rest of the Esqurie covers. That is to say, it looks quite good. Nothing to complain about. Plus, look how much BUZZ it generated for Esquire. In this day of sagging news stand sales, that BUZZ is a Very Big Deal. Men's mags are dropping like files. Even Playboy is cutting back their number of issues per year. No more 12 monthly issues...

On the other hand, I think some of the images inside  the Esquire spread are a bit soft looking. But then again, some photos in many spreads printed in magazines end up looking soft regardless of camera or format. But again, I think this issue is a BUZZ generator, and not supposed to be the pinncale of printed IQ. And it leads the readers of the magazine to their web site to check out the videos too...not bad marketing, IMO. If I knew that Esquire was going to have some cool moving image stuff on their site every month, shot by a good photographer, I'd be there every month to check it out. the video has got a cool look, and I'm glad they did it in greyscale instead of color.

I agree some guys in this thread seem to have head in the sand syndrome about video being viable for print guys now, and about it being a good tool for still guys to learn, and it's a little silly. You're too sensitive ;-)

[And on a side note, I was recently in touch with someone who was shooting MF stills for peanuts and competing with 5 billion other guys in NY all doing the same thing, and he recently bought the Red and now shoots video. Oh, and he just bought a house with all the money he's generating by shooting the video now. Would not have happened if he'd stayed shooting girls on a seamless for the web in ny. There's too much competition, and the rates are not where they should be.]
« Last Edit: May 15, 2009, 11:17:41 am by lisa_r »
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arashm

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« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2009, 10:41:29 am »

To me it's crazy that BC has to come out and spell it.
This is not what's happening in the future, it's already happening.
I can tell you that 80% of what I do involves motion and stills at the same time.
it's true the tool (Red) doesn't matter...
what clients appreciate is that they get what they need with one crew, one production and most important, one vision, when the director is also the photographer, there is nothing left to be miss communicated, and there is a continuity between the stills and the motion.
I leave you with this image, a DSLR and a video camera co-existing on set for a national campaign.
(if I had a image of a MFDB and motion camera together handy I would post that as well...)
I think it's time to be a bit more open minded.
am


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Snook

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« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2009, 11:11:07 am »

Quote from: arashm
To me it's crazy that BC has to come out and spell it.
This is not what's happening in the future, it's already happening.
I can tell you that 80% of what I do involves motion and stills at the same time.
it's true the tool (Red) doesn't matter...
what clients appreciate is that they get what they need with one crew, one production and most important, one vision, when the director is also the photographer, there is nothing left to be miss communicated, and there is a continuity between the stills and the motion.
I leave you with this image, a DSLR and a video camera co-existing on set for a national campaign.
(if I had a image of a MFDB and motion camera together handy I would post that as well...)
I think it's time to be a bit more open minded.
am

Sorry but looking at your set up I cannot help but asking, What would you be shooting video for? Do you have some kind of motion going on in that set up? I guess maybe smoke or vapor from coffee or something?
Could you explain what the video is for?
Just curios
Thanks
Snook

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gwhitf

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« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2009, 11:24:46 am »

Quote from: arashm
To me it's crazy that BC has to come out and spell it.
This is not what's happening in the future, it's already happening.

I do not disagree with the fact that that world is headed toward motion. Look at the NYTimes today; those awesome stories shot in BW and with added audio interviews; they're incredible. Every one of them.

Just completed a print job, where the client was also doing Flash web banners. They wanted me to quote the motion too, but honestly, how much does one man want to be responsible for? Seriously. Jack of all Trades; Master of none. Should I have done the Catering too? What about the Makeup and Hair?

There are just so many hours in the day, and there are a million details just for the stills part. In this last job, I watched the film crew, and the myriad of Details for their job alone would have made my head explode.

It's so easy to just sit here and say, "Oh, we'll do the video too". Until your ass is on the line, and it's time to actually do it. "How hard could it be...?" Yeah, right. Anyone can do anything HalfAssed; it's quite another feat to really nail even the Stills portion well, week in and week out.

Just one opinion, from a very small brain.
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arashm

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« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 11:34:50 am »

Snook
there were 8 spots in total, 6 of them actually have people interaction in them...
they were used for 3 weeks of national broadcast and web.
The stills were used primarily for web and then used as POP (point of purchase) at the stores.
I direct the motion first and once we have it, pull dolly back and shoot the stills according to layout.
now, if we were at a point where technology allowed it, I would have loved to just shoot the video and pull frames from it for the stills.
but we're not just quite there yet for my taste.
am
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Tim Lüdin

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« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 11:38:13 am »

Quote from: arashm
Snook
there were 8 spots in total, 6 of them actually have people interaction in them...
they were used for 3 weeks of national broadcast and web.
The stills were used primarily for web and then used as POP (point of purchase) at the stores.
I direct the motion first and once we have it, pull dolly back and shoot the stills according to layout.
now, if we were at a point where technology allowed it, I would have loved to just shoot the video and pull frames from it for the stills.
but we're not just quite there yet for my taste.
am


End of the year we will be.
13.5 stops of dynamic range. Motion or still. All in one body called "Epic". You choose the chipsize and the lenses.

Cheers
Tim
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arashm

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« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 11:45:39 am »

gwhitf
your actually completely right.
this is not something I did for fun, I saw the writing on the wall 3 years ago and since then been putting myself through so much learning to catch up with this world.
by no extend do I do everything on set, even though I could easily DP it, we had a DP on set that day.
this is the beauty of the film world that I've embraced as a photographer, you can hire the best of everything to be on your set.
I didn't DP that day because it's my job as the photographer/director to constantly listen and interact with client / agency and the crew.
so yes absolutely no time to set up stands or flags or....
But I will tell you being a one stop shop for clients is great and it certainly doesn't hurt the billing either!
again this is how I do things, but I feel that every photographer is the captain of their own ship so there is no right way....
am

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