epson 9900 -- a simple fix

[hilljf]

First I need to say that I agree with everything that Michael has said about the Epson 9900 in his review.  It is a wonderful printer.  The clarity and color from the printer is fantastic and it is built to an exceptional standard.  I have owned the  Epson 9900 since November of 2008, replacing a well used Epson 9800.

Having said that, the one thing which needs to be fixed, is its approach to auto head checking and cleaning.    After wasting lots and lots of ink allowing the printer to agressively clean itself, I too shut off auto cleaning and follow a manual process somewhat similar to what Michael refers to in his review.

However, daily in almost a mocking fashion, I will be making a print to the Epson 9900, and my HP Z3100 which sits right next to the Epson, will wake up and spit a few drops of ink into its tiny spittoon (which by the way does not need to be replaced like the "ink buckets" on the Epson), reminding me that it is really simple code to track time and every twelve hours or so, fire the heads for a drop or two, in order to keep them clean.    Truth be told, I use the HP Z3100 much less since I got the Epson, except to make custom profiles of targets I print on the Epson.   But, the machine will not sit idle and let me forget its simple solution to keeping its heads clean.    The problem with the logic in the Epson is that it waits to check the heads until the time you want to use the printer.   Two issues,  first, if some time has past since you last used the printer, it is likely that a cleaning might be in order and second, it does it cleaning right when you need a print, only casting frustration on the process.   I can always go to my HPZ3100 and ask it to print and it is ready and prints the job, having done its preening in off hours.

Epson, please put this change into your firmware and this printer will rank at the top of the charts in every respect.

John

[EvoM]

John, seeing you have both, can you comment on meterism. I have a Z3100 and use mainly satin paper with gloss enhancer covering the whole print area. Have you made a comparison between the Epson and HP, especially on satin papers. Micheal's report only briefly touched on this. I know the Epson doesn't have the clear ink but does it need it?

Evo

[Ryan Grayley]

John, seeing you have both, can you comment on meterism. I have a Z3100 and use mainly satin paper with gloss enhancer covering the whole print area. Have you made a comparison between the Epson and HP, especially on satin papers. Micheal's report only briefly touched on this. I know the Epson doesn't have the clear ink but does it need it?

On the Epson UK web site there is the following statement: "Using new and powerful technology, the Stylus Pro 7900 selects the optimium colour combination to accurately express the desired colour. This means less gradation, reduced graininess and greater constancy of colour under different light sources."

However one of my customers recently complained about daylight colour shift on a 7900 print that just wasn't evident on his original painting. All we did was move from one side of the building to the other.

I also have a Z3200 but haven't put metamerism to the test yet.

The Z3200 just works and to my eyes it produces better prints than the 7900. And no time and ink wasted clearing frequent clogs as I do with the 7900.

[Gemmtech]

The Z3200 just works and to my eyes it produces better prints than the 7900.

Can you please explain this statement?  I'm always curious what people mean when they make these types of comments.  When you say it makes better prints (caveat, "to my eyes") what exactly do you mean?  Better color?  Better gradation?  Better Resolution?  Less Bronzing?  Less Gloss Differential?  What is better with the Z3200 over the 7900?  I ask this question because MR has also used both and he states;

"Due to the new head's resolution is an area where the new printers really deliver, but only if you feed them files that are of sufficiently high quality. These heads along with new dithering algorithms permit the 7900 / 9900 to produce higher resolution prints than we've seen before, and in the process this is the first printer that I've used where 2800 output resolution actually delivers visibly higher print resolution. So, if you have a large high-res file with extremely high frequency data 2880 is now worthwhile, and because of the high speed printing capability of the inch-wide head there is little penalty for using this mode. Be aware though the proper sharpening technique, both on file input and output, is going to be needed to ensure that the full image quality that these printers are capable of is delivered."

And then he makes a final comment;

"The summary simply is that this printer is the finest that I've ever used, both in terms of print output quality and operational efficiency and ease of use. In fact it's hard to imagine where Epson or anyone else for the matter is going to go next. Gamut is remarkable, longevity is as good as it gets, resolution is superb and the printers themselves seem to be built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and in fact are intended for industrial level usage rather than the relatively light usage that the typical photographer or studio is likely to put them to."

So my questions again would be what makes the Z3200 the better printer IYHO?  better with all papers? better with color or B&W?  

[Ryan Grayley]

"The summary simply is that this printer is the finest that I've ever used, both in terms of print output quality and operational efficiency and ease of use. In fact it's hard to imagine where Epson or anyone else for the matter is going to go next. Gamut is remarkable, longevity is as good as it gets, resolution is superb and the printers themselves seem to be built like the proverbial brick outhouse, and in fact are intended for industrial level usage rather than the relatively light usage that the typical photographer or studio is likely to put them to."

So my questions again would be what makes the Z3200 the better printer IYHO?  better with all papers? better with color or B&W?

I was rather confused by MRs statement that the 7900 "longevity is as good as it gets". This is not backed up by Wilhelm test results. The 7900 longevity is no better than any Epson printer since the 9600. On the other hand the Z3100 and now the Z3200 have significantly better longevity results than any Epson.

I reproduce art for painters and one of my clients commented that he preferred the Photorag Ultrasmooth results on the Z3200 to the 7900 as the blues were a touch more accurate and I had to agree with him. Further, a 7900 print shifted colours in daylight compared to the original painting when moved from one side of the building to another. RC prints show no GD on the Z3200 when GO is used but not so with the 7900. I have found HP Canvas to be more robust when rubbed with a wet cloth than a 7900 print produced on Epson Water Resistant Canvas. And no clogs, no ink wastage the Z3200 just delivers. The only benefit of the 7900 for me is the raw speed where it has the edge. For me the Z3200 is as good as it gets.

[Gemmtech]

I was rather confused by MRs statement that the 7900 "longevity is as good as it gets". This is not backed up by Wilhelm test results. The 7900 longevity is no better than any Epson printer since the 9600. On the other hand the Z3100 and now the Z3200 have significantly better longevity results than any Epson.

I reproduce art for painters and one of my clients commented that he preferred the Photorag Ultrasmooth results on the Z3200 to the 7900 as the blues were a touch more accurate and I had to agree with him. Further, a 7900 print shifted colours in daylight compared to the original painting when moved from one side of the building to another. RC prints show no GD on the Z3200 when GO is used but not so with the 7900. I have found HP Canvas to be more robust when rubbed with a wet cloth than a 7900 print produced on Epson Water Resistant Canvas. And no clogs, no ink wastage the Z3200 just delivers. The only benefit of the 7900 for me is the raw speed where it has the edge. For me the Z3200 is as good as it gets.

I did have a quick look at the Wilhelm results for both printers and he does apparently have the Z3200 rated higher than the 7900 regarding longevity, but then that also makes me wonder, who cares?  Will somebody not buy a print because it's rated at 200 years instead of 275 years?  I must admit I wonder how they even know how long the print will last, but if you are 30 years old and buy a print today that is rated at 150 years isn't that good enough?  I know some people say it's fine art and you want it to last, but what you find aesthetically pleasing today your heirs wont tomorrow.  And how many photographer's works of art are worth a King's ransom?  I doubt there's been 10 photographs that have sold for a million or more, but who knows it's a crazy world anything is possible.  Regarding the blues, is it possible that was user controllable? Ink waste, doesn't the Z3200 self purge? And are you just commenting on one paper with one client?  There's no doubt that there is GD with the 7900, I have several sample prints and it's definitely there, that's why I like dye printers with semi-gloss and gloss, they don't have that 3D look.  In fairness, I've had many people look at 7900 prints and it's very difficult for them to find the GD, you have to twist and contort the print and have it at the right angle to the light in order to see it and if it's behind glass then it the GD becomes on no issue even with sem-gloss or even glossy papers.

[Ryan Grayley]

Ink waste, doesn't the Z3200 self purge?

Perhaps the Z3200 will self purge but my 7900 self hemorrhaged. I can run prints on the Z3200 at any time without having to worry about clogged nozzles. With my frequently clogging 7900 I must either be at the mercy of the hemorrhaging AID or do a nozzle test pattern followed by the almost inevitable manual nozzle cleaning. All this wastes time as well as lots of ink neither of which I am happy about wasting. I am using the Z3200 more and more because I can just get on with producing prints for my clients.

http://luminous-landscape.com/forum/index....823&hl=7900

[Gemmtech]

I guess I have to read some items more thoroughly, It depends on what type of paper and whether it's B&W or Color that determines the longevity of the print obviously and if you look at all the charts there are some prints from the 7900 that are rated over 400 years, the HP never hits 400 years.  MR might be right when he states it's as good as it gets especially if he is using one of the papers rated at 400+ years, that would be about as good as it gets?

"Perhaps the Z3200 will self purge but my 7900 self hemorrhaged."

It appears you received a defective printer?  They are mechanical devices run by software, so many have to be defective.  I realize it
sucks when that happens, all that money and it doesn't work right, ouch!  Imagine spending over $80,000.00 on a brand new Mercedes and having it break down (transmission) within 20 days with 196 miles on the odometer, it happened to me and Mercedes sent me a new car, it only took 3-4 months.

[Ryan Grayley]

I guess I have to read some items more thoroughly, It depends on what type of paper and whether it's B&W or Color that determines the longevity of the print obviously and if you look at all the charts there are some prints from the 7900 that are rated over 400 years, the HP never hits 400 years.  MR might be right when he states it's as good as it gets especially if he is using one of the papers rated at 400+ years, that would be about as good as it gets?

Yes 400 years when printing black and white on the Epson 7900 is very impressive.

However the HP fade resistance is the stronger performer for colour prints (which is my main area of interest) and this is yet another reason why my clients and I are increasingly expressing a preference for the Z3200.

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/hp/Z3200.html
http://www.wilhelm-research.com/epson/7900.html

[Wayne Fox]

I was rather confused by MRs statement that the 7900 "longevity is as good as it gets". This is not backed up by Wilhelm test results. The 7900 longevity is no better than any Epson printer since the 9600. On the other hand the Z3100 and now the Z3200 have significantly better longevity results than any Epson.

I reproduce art for painters and one of my clients commented that he preferred the Photorag Ultrasmooth results on the Z3200 to the 7900 as the blues were a touch more accurate and I had to agree with him. Further, a 7900 print shifted colours in daylight compared to the original painting when moved from one side of the building to another. RC prints show no GD on the Z3200 when GO is used but not so with the 7900. I have found HP Canvas to be more robust when rubbed with a wet cloth than a 7900 print produced on Epson Water Resistant Canvas. And no clogs, no ink wastage the Z3200 just delivers. The only benefit of the 7900 for me is the raw speed where it has the edge. For me the Z3200 is as good as it gets.

So one reason you are rating the 3200 over the 7900 as far as print quality comes from a rather unique application - reproducing art - and the experience of a slight color shift when compared to a piece of art.  I have never tried to reproduce art work (nor do I plan on it) ... so I'm more interested in how a printer performs when printing landscapes (and some portraits).

This issue seems irrelevant to my application - printing landscapes and portraits, and while I have not tested the 3200 yet, I would concur with Michael that the 7900 exceeds any other printer I have ever used, which includes all previous Epsons, Canon ipf6100. When printing very high quality files, the results from the 7900 are stunning, and to me visually superior to output from the other printers I have used.

The GO thing has been discussed to death in another thread - I just don't see it as an issue.

 I'm not sure comparing a canvas to Epson Water Resistant Canvas is much of an endorsement, since Epson's canvas is pretty weak for top quality work - very poor resolution of detail. To get maximum quality requires a canvas that will need coated after being printed anyway (I like breathing color's myself).  To say that HP canvas beats the Epson ... I'll accept your word for it, but that's like saying McDonald's Big Mac beats  Burger King's Whopper .. both will fill you up but neither are what you call top quality food.

(Sorry to hear your 7900 ink issues have not been resolved.  This is not normal and should be fixable.)

[Gemmtech]

Everybody chooses his/her printer based upon their needs and some have great luck with HP, some with Epson, some with Canon.  I switched to Canon at work because they were so much faster than Epsons.  Wayne is correct that the GD and the HP GO has been discussed ad infinitum and there's no doubt if you are putting your prints behind glass it's a non-issue, actually it's almost a non-issue even if viewed without glass because you truly have to view the print at weird angles to the right type of light.  I must admit I was hoping that you would answer my question because I was being sincere and wanted to know why you felt the Z3200 prints looked better than the 7900.  I know Wayne has owned every printer known to man kind including the Epson 11800 and his experience is quite vast, obviously MR's is as well, so another opinion to the contrary is interesting.  My point about longevity is to you buy 2 printers? One for B&W and one for color?  Is 400 years that important?  200 years?  100 years seems to be long enough because in 100 years you will be able to make a print that will last 100,000 years and nobody will care.  

"To say that HP canvas beats the Epson ... I'll accept your word for it, but that's like saying McDonald's Big Mac beats Burger King's Whopper .. both will fill you up but neither are what you call top quality food."

   Certainly non can compete with the food from www.Elbulli.com

[Ryan Grayley]

So one reason you are rating the 3200 over the 7900 as far as print quality comes from a rather unique application - reproducing art - and the experience of a slight color shift when compared to a piece of art.  I have never tried to reproduce art work (nor do I plan on it) ... so I'm more interested in how a printer performs when printing landscapes (and some portraits).

Hmm, yes you make a very good point which hadn't really occurred to me before. MR and the majority of users of this forum are more likely to be interested in photography rather than art reproduction and the requirements are perhaps quite different. My clients are interested in all of the aspects of production that I have mentioned in this thread and increasingly my Z3200 is better fulfilling my client requirements than my 7900.

To say that HP canvas beats the Epson ... I'll accept your word for it, but that's like saying McDonald's Big Mac beats  Burger King's Whopper .. both will fill you up but neither are what you call top quality food.

I use HP Professional Matte Canvas (with my Z3200) because my clients like the print quality, colours reproduce accurately, it has a bare bulb and unvarnished Wilhelm rating of 150 years, it is mechanically robust and it is validated by HP for coating with Eco Print Shield. These are important factors for me because some of my artist clients are award winning and they expect to sell their limited edition prints at premium prices. There is also a hope that some of these prints will become collectable items that may even appreciate in value over time. The galleries that I supply also expect prints to have a very long life.

[Ernst Dinkla]

"Perhaps the Z3200 will self purge but my 7900 self hemorrhaged."

It appears you received a defective printer?  They are mechanical devices run by software, so many have to be defective.  I realize it
sucks when that happens, all that money and it doesn't work right, ouch!  Imagine spending over $80,000.00 on a brand new Mercedes and having it break down (transmission) within 20 days with 196 miles on the odometer, it happened to me and Mercedes sent me a new car, it only took 3-4 months.

Since the introduction of the 11880 the auto-cleaning feature of the most recent Epson wide formats has been discussed at length in this forum and some other mailing lists.
To put this issue in the "defective printer" category doesn't make it less problematic, enough users now switch off that feature and start their daily routine with a nozzle check + a nozzle check for the important jobs. Like in the old days of Epsons. So does a friend of mine who got an 11880 6 weeks ago. This model is much longer than 3-4 months on the market. The Canon iPF9000 he also has for 2 years, never has clogs and wastes less ink, my Z models behave even better if ink waste is counted. Michael's review mentions the issue and he solves it the same way on Epson's recommendation. This goes beyond a defective printer issue. John's message that started this thread hits the nail on the head in my opinion.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[Mulis Pictus]

This goes beyond a defective printer issue. John's message that started this thread hits the nail on the head in my opinion.

If you mean the idea to wake up printer every 12 hours and fire some ink, it might not help in this case.

I had also clogging problems with my 7900 and it was clogging even after less then 12 hours of inactivity. Fortunately enough it was repaired by Epson service and I am nearly 2 months without single clog. (knock, knock) I would recommend to contact Epson support if you have the clogging issues.

Now the only things which disturb me a bit are the amount of PK/LK ink needed for MK->PK switch and few inches of wasted paper when I forget to unload roll after printing (as mentioned in another thread here on LL).

[Gemmtech]

"Hmm, yes you make a very good point which hadn't really occurred to me before. MR and the majority of users of this forum are more likely to be interested in photography rather than art reproduction and the requirements are perhaps quite different. My clients are interested in all of the aspects of production that I have mentioned in this thread and increasingly my Z3200 is better fulfilling my client requirements than my 7900."

I'm not following    You photograph an original painting and then make a print from it why is the Z3200 better than the 7900 at this?  By all accounts the 7900 has a larger color gamut, produces a higher resolution print and longevity seems to be long enough.  Was the color shift something that could only be seen if the original painting was sitting right next to it, or did the artist notice it just by looking at the print?  

Are you sure it's not more to do with your defective printer, 7900 than the Z3200 is a better printer?  Like me, MACs are lousy computers and PC do a much better job, ask me why and I'll tell you that the 3 MACs I bought ALL died from various ailments, aren't easily upgradeable and even service is a PITA.  However, I know a lot of people with a lot of MACs who swear by them while I swear at them.  

"However the HP fade resistance is the stronger performer for colour prints (which is my main area of interest) and this is yet another reason why my clients and I are increasingly expressing a preference for the Z3200."

So your clients want prints that will more than likely outlast their children?   I did see that the HP canvas is rated at about 275 years and the Epson is rated at about 100 years, so that would mean that the HP print could be enjoyed by many more generations?  If you used different canvas with the 7900 would they last longer than the Epson Canvas?  IOW, if you used the HP canvas with the 7900 would the rating be 275 years?

[Ryan Grayley]

I had also clogging problems with my 7900 and it was clogging even after less then 12 hours of inactivity. Fortunately enough it was repaired by Epson service and I am nearly 2 months without single clog. (knock, knock) I would recommend to contact Epson support if you have the clogging issues.

I wish I had confidence in Epson to sort out my clogging if indeed I have a defective printer. I reported my AID problems to Epson in November and it took them over two months to call me back. They then sent a technician and he just checked that everything was in spec. Another month went by and Epson then sent me some replacement cartridges as compensation for my wasted ink. Unfortunately this was all too little and too late from Epson as I had given up and bought a Z3200.

[Paul Eby]

I wish I had confidence in Epson to sort out my clogging if indeed I have a defective printer. I reported my AID problems to Epson in November and it took them over two months to call me back. They then sent a technician and he just checked that everything was in spec. Another month went by and Epson then sent me some replacement cartridges as compensation for my wasted ink. Unfortunately this was all too little and too late from Epson as I had given up and bought a Z3200.

I am not far behind in making the same decision. Epson replaced my first 7900 because of clogging. The second printer with less than a dozen prints is now clogging as well. I find it hard to believe this is an isolated problem.

[davisf8]

First I need to say that I agree with everything that Michael has said about the Epson 9900 in his review.  It is a wonderful printer.  The clarity and color from the printer is fantastic and it is built to an exceptional standard.  I have owned the  Epson 9900 since November of 2008, replacing a well used Epson 9800.

Having said that, the one thing which needs to be fixed, is its approach to auto head checking and cleaning.    After wasting lots and lots of ink allowing the printer to agressively clean itself, I too shut off auto cleaning and follow a manual process somewhat similar to what Michael refers to in his review.

However, daily in almost a mocking fashion, I will be making a print to the Epson 9900, and my HP Z3100 which sits right next to the Epson, will wake up and spit a few drops of ink into its tiny spittoon (which by the way does not need to be replaced like the "ink buckets" on the Epson), reminding me that it is really simple code to track time and every twelve hours or so, fire the heads for a drop or two, in order to keep them clean.    Truth be told, I use the HP Z3100 much less since I got the Epson, except to make custom profiles of targets I print on the Epson.   But, the machine will not sit idle and let me forget its simple solution to keeping its heads clean.    The problem with the logic in the Epson is that it waits to check the heads until the time you want to use the printer.   Two issues,  first, if some time has past since you last used the printer, it is likely that a cleaning might be in order and second, it does it cleaning right when you need a print, only casting frustration on the process.   I can always go to my HPZ3100 and ask it to print and it is ready and prints the job, having done its preening in off hours.

Epson, please put this change into your firmware and this printer will rank at the top of the charts in every respect.

John

John,

Can you please elaborate on this!
"Truth be told, I use the HP Z3100 much less since I got the Epson, except to make custom profiles of targets I print on the Epson."

Are you saying you use the built -in spectro to create profiles for your Epson?

Thanks,
Alan

[Ernst Dinkla]

John,

Can you please elaborate on this!
"Truth be told, I use the HP Z3100 much less since I got the Epson, except to make custom profiles of targets I print on the Epson."

Are you saying you use the built -in spectro to create profiles for your Epson?

Thanks,
Alan

Yes, that is possible if you get the APS extension with the printer. APS is included in the Z PS models though.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

[hilljf]

Yes,  I use the APS software and the targets provided with it.   I print the target on the designated paper on the 9900 and then read the target using the APS software on the 3100.    There is an excellent article on the main Luminous Landscape site which gives detailed directions on how to do this.   The resulting profiles are very good in my opinion.

John

Yes, that is possible if you get the APS extension with the printer. APS is included in the Z PS models though.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html