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Author Topic: History of The Religion of Cropping ?  (Read 618418 times)

dalethorn

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #40 on: May 11, 2009, 11:58:07 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
....you believe that photographers who compose in-camera and frame so that little or no cropping is needed later miss more shooting opportunities than those who shoot "loose" and crop heavily later....

In the interest of being informative rather than merely rhetorical, I crop an average of 5 to 8 percent linearly on landscapes or other large scenes, and 20 to 40 percent linearly on photos of small birds at distance.  If that constitutes heavy cropping, I plead 100 percent guilty.
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DarkPenguin

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2009, 12:04:46 am »

I like 1:1.

Quote from: ErikKaffehr
Hi,

My view on cropping is that there no need to be religious about it. Some cropping is necessary.

1) The aspect ratio doesn't fit the media
2) The subject requires some kind of extreme aspect ratio. What I call semi panoramics are a good example of that. I often shoot more frame and stitch rather than crop in order to preserve pixels.

My suggestion is essentially: Compose in the viewfinder. Crop if cropping improves the picture. Learn from misstakes.

A final note: 3:2 or 4:3 are not optimal aspect ratios! Each subject may need it's own aspect ratio. With the arrival of HD 16:9 is a new aspect ratio we need to learn to live with.

Best regards
Erik
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Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2009, 12:07:24 am »

Quote from: John Camp
I almost always agree with Jonathan, but in this case I think he's wrong. (But not utterly wrong.) There are a number of assumptions built into what he is saying, and they are (1) resolution is more important than composition. I think is almost never the case. (2) That good composition on any subject can be forced into whatever frame you're carrying that day -- square in some cases, 2x3 in others, 4x5 or 6x7 in others, and all you have to do is maneuver around a little. I think that is almost never the case. (3) That when you crop, you throw away a huge proportion of the pixels. I think that's almost never the case, unless you're cropping from square to something else (a big problem with the square format) or you're too lazy to switch your camera orientation. (4) He's also implicitly suggesting that nature (or at least the external world) should dictate to the photographer. I think most artists go the other way around - they take from the world what *they* wish, and that usually involves cropping. The real world doesn't necessarily come in 2:3 bites. Sometimes times it's necessary to take a 1:5 photo with your 2:3 frame.

Go back and re-read what I wrote. I specifically exempted cropping-for-the-purpose-of-changing-aspect-ratio from my criticism of cropping in general, more than once. A lot of the stuff I shoot ends up getting cropped from the 2:3 aspect ratio of my cameras to a 4:5 aspect ratio. If you look at the images I've posted here, on my web site, and elsewhere, probably half are 4:5. But when I crop a 1Ds (4064x2704) image to 4:5, I almost always do so by trimming the ends only, not the sides, so that the cropped image is 3380x2704. Cropping from 4064x2704 to 3380x2704 is a necessary evil required to crop from 2:3 to 4:5. But cropping further than that (say down to 2500x2000) is an unnecessary evil, and something to be avoided whenever possible.
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Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2009, 12:25:55 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
Again, argumentative.  You either have an obsession with "getting it perfect" or an obsession with winning an argument (of some kind).

You were agreeing with statements I made disagreeing with statements you made. I was simply pointing out the obvious inconsistency in what you wrote. And instead of clarifying your position, you chose to go ad hominem, calling me "argumentative". What do you actually believe?


A. Cropping is something that should be kept to a minimum by composing as closely to the final print as the aspect ratio of the camera allows.

or

B. Doing so causes so many missed shooting opportunities that shooting loosely and cropping later is the preferable method.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 12:27:12 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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Dick Roadnight

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2009, 05:33:25 am »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
...framing tightly so that little or no cropping is necessary (other than the minimum needed to match the aspect ratio of a given print size)
It is good to make good use of your pixel res, and also not to waste too much paper... The client or the format of a magazine or calender might dictate the proportions, but if you produce prints for sale, "print size" should not be a restriction - you can crop to the final size and shape with a guillotine, and custom frame any size or shape.

I would not want to be stuck with standard print sizes, (or aspect ratios) so I use roll paper - any ratio or size I like up to 24" * 10.5m (until I get the 60" printer).
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dalethorn

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2009, 07:30:52 am »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
You were agreeing with statements I made disagreeing with statements you made.

Um, no. I agreed only with a specific statement that made general sense, but not with statements that dictate your terms of cropping. Based on your many comments, I don't see art getting in the way of your quest for precision any time soon. And BTW, in case you missed my previous post, those are real numbers as opposed to vague assertions.
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Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2009, 08:59:49 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
Based on your many comments, I don't see art getting in the way of your quest for precision any time soon.

You obviously haven't looked at any of my work then...


Not cropped except to convert to 4:5 aspect ratio.

And post #41 appears to have been posted while I was still writing my previous post. You didn't answer the question I asked in it.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 09:03:02 am by Jonathan Wienke »
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RSL

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2009, 11:04:06 am »

Quote from: John Camp
...and Jonathan concedes this when he says it's sometimes "necessary" to make a few trims. Well, yes. Isn't that what we're talking about? We really weren't talking about unnecessary or frivolous trims. We're talking about trims that help the photo more than the extra resolution will help it.
JC

John,

I think we all agree that there are times when you need to crop. The argument seems to be over whether or not the photographer ought to compose his photograph in the camera’s viewfinder or simply snap something that includes what he thinks he wants and then figure out the composition in post-processing. Sort of what we used to suggest to each other when I was flying fighters in Korea: “Shoot ‘em down and sort ‘em out on the ground.”

I keep quoting Henri Cartier-Bresson because the geometry of his compositions was exceptionally good – perhaps the best I’ve seen, and because he was the most articulate photographer I’ve encountered: someone who could explain how he worked.

HCB always composed on the camera, and even insisted that his photographs be printed with the dark border of the unexposed part of the film included. On the other hand, his most famous photograph “Behind the Gare Saint-Lazare,” the picture of the guy jumping into the puddle, always (incorrectly) used to illustrate “the decisive moment,” was cropped. Like the picture of the three fifth-graders I posted above, he had less than a second to get the shot and there was a wall off to the left that he couldn’t avoid including. Another was the very moving picture of the woman kissing the bishop’s ring. He couldn’t get close enough to the scene, was standing behind a row of people and had to lift the camera up and shoot down, then crop later. But all of his crops were emergency procedures, not standard practice.

Here are some quotes from the Aperture book, The Mind’s Eye, a collection of Cartier-Bresson’s writings:

“To take photographs means to recognize – simultaneously and within a fraction of a second – both the fact itself and the rigorous organization of visually perceived forms that give it meaning.”

“One does not add composition as though it were an afterthought superimposed on the basic subject material…”

“If you start cutting or cropping a good photograph, it means death to the geometrically correct interplay of proportions. Besides, it very rarely happens that a photograph which was feebly composed can be saved by reconstruction of its composition under the darkroom’s enlarger; the integrity of vision is no longer there.”

I think this is what this discussion is all about. In my 79 years I’ve seen a lot of photographs and I’ll say it again: People who crop regularly don’t make as good pictures as those who treat cropping strictly as an emergency procedure.

I agree with most of Jonathan’s points – except the idea of shooting at a 4 x 5 ratio with a 2 x 3 camera. If I wanted 4 x 5 I’d get a camera that’ll shoot 4 x 5. I could set my D3 up that way, but I don’t because I happen to like the 2 x 3 format.
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DarkPenguin

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #48 on: May 12, 2009, 11:05:54 am »

Okay, after 3 pages of posts on cropping does any one have an answer for the OP?

For the record the question was ...

"I'm just curious, is there some history to these strong opinions that I'm not aware of?"

I'll suggest that there is no particular history.  It is just the standard "someone is wrong on the internet" thread path.  And cropping sits in technique and workflow so there is plenty to be "wrong" about.
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dalethorn

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2009, 11:21:32 am »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
You obviously haven't looked at any of my work then...
Not cropped except to convert to 4:5 aspect ratio.
And post #41 appears to have been posted while I was still writing my previous post. You didn't answer the question I asked in it.

Congratulations on making a good image without cropping.  I just ordered a Pana G1 to complement my ZS3.  With the much larger sensor, you'll be delighted to know that when I crop the bird photos 40 percent, I'll be cropping from a much higher quality image.  I do try my best, Jon, but no matter how skilled I become in the next year or so (ignoring the previous 40), I still frequently see ways to make a better image by cropping the near-perfect scene I grab in the field.  Just my personal compulsion, I guess.
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dalethorn

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2009, 11:27:13 am »

Quote from: RSL
The argument seems to be over whether or not the photographer ought to compose his photograph in the camera’s viewfinder......

Funny irony here - I've been snapping without a viewfinder for awhile, and I know the screen isn't a perfect view of the actual capture. I don't know if the EVF of the Pana G1 I just ordered is 100% or not, but that may help matters.  I've preferred EVF's on the lowly Pana FZ50 and Nikon 8800 over most of the DSLR viewfinders I've seen, so I don't know what viewfinders you and Jon are using.  Maybe yours are a lot better than typical DSLR viewfinders.
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RSL

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2009, 11:35:47 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
Funny irony here - I've been snapping without a viewfinder for awhile, and I know the screen isn't a perfect view of the actual capture. I don't know if the EVF of the Pana G1 I just ordered is 100% or not, but that may help matters.  I've preferred EVF's on the lowly Pana FZ50 and Nikon 8800 over most of the DSLR viewfinders I've seen, so I don't know what viewfinders you and Jon are using.  Maybe yours are a lot better than typical DSLR viewfinders.

Dale, As I said in my last post, I'm using the Nikon D3. Its viewfinder is 100%. Same with my D2X, which I still use to some extent. My Epson R-D1 is about 85% and I have to compensate for that.
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Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2009, 12:32:55 pm »

Quote from: dalethorn
I've preferred EVF's on the lowly Pana FZ50 and Nikon 8800 over most of the DSLR viewfinders I've seen, so I don't know what viewfinders you and Jon are using.  Maybe yours are a lot better than typical DSLR viewfinders.

Canon 1Ds and 1D-II. Their viewfinders are better than what you'll find in most SLRs, digital or otherwise.
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bdkphoto

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2009, 12:52:16 pm »

Jonathan- congrats on the baby, do you mind if I crop your photo and repost it?

Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2009, 01:39:18 pm »

Quote from: bdkphoto
Jonathan- congrats on the baby, do you mind if I crop your photo and repost it?

Feel free, as long as you don't try to claim the image itself as your work.
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Gordon Buck

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2009, 02:39:30 pm »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
Okay, after 3 pages of posts on cropping does any one have an answer for the OP?

For the record the question was ...

"I'm just curious, is there some history to these strong opinions that I'm not aware of?"

I'll suggest that there is no particular history.  It is just the standard "someone is wrong on the internet" thread path.  And cropping sits in technique and workflow so there is plenty to be "wrong" about.



On January 7, 1839, L. J. M. Daguerre announced his method for capturing an image which later became known as photography.  The pictures produced by the Daguerre method were called Daguerreotypes in his honor.  Unfortunately, Daguerre had used a metal plate measuring 8-1/2 x 6-1/2 inches which would not fit into a standard 5 x 7 inch picture frame and he had to apply tin snips to fit the plate into the frame.  This is the first known instance of cropping and  Daguerre was severely criticized by the French press.  Later, the 8-1/2 x 6-1/2 inch plate became known as the “whole plate” size and strict laws were instituted that allowed only “half plate”, “quarter plate”, etc. sizes.   Illegal sizes, widely used on the black market, were decried as “tintypes” and were considered inferior to the original “whole plate” Daguerreotypes.

 

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bdkphoto

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2009, 03:24:37 pm »

Quote from: Jonathan Wienke
Feel free, as long as you don't try to claim the image itself as your work.


Thanks- after re-reading this thread I have to agree that this topic has run it's course.

Ray

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #57 on: May 13, 2009, 12:19:28 am »

Can someone refresh my memory? Who was it who said, "I never saw a photograph that could not be improved with a bit of cropping", or something to that effect?

The title of this thread seems rather odd to me. The religion of cropping?? What on earth gives anyone the idea that cropping has anything to do with religion?

A better title would be, "History of the Irreligious Concept of Cropping". There should be nothing religious about cropping. It should be possible to present a number of different crops of the same image, each expressing a slightly different perspective or idea.
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Bobtrips

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #58 on: May 13, 2009, 01:15:13 am »

Picking up on a tidbit here...

Quote from: bill t.
Perhaps.  But I think cropping is mostly a symptom of having not learned to view composition through the viewfinder.

Newbies tend to look at parts of the the subject THROUGH the viewfinder, but do not look at the overall composition WITHIN the boundary of the viewfinder.

....

A few years ago I noticed a distinct improvement in the composition of shots made by friends who were casual shooters when they switched from film to digital cameras.   Mostly it seemed that they were doing a better job of filling the frame.

All had purchased compact digitals without optical viewfinders and were using the rear screen for shooting rather than the optical viewfinder that their film cameras provided.

I decided that they were treating the screen as if it was a print that they were holding in their hands rather than looking at their subject through the viewfinder.  

A camera LCD might be a good way to teach newbies composition.  (I certainly think using a digital set to B&W helps to start seeing  shapes and textures by taking colors out of the shot before processing.)
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Jonathan Wienke

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History of The Religion of Cropping ?
« Reply #59 on: May 13, 2009, 10:23:25 am »

Quote from: Ray
Can someone refresh my memory? Who was it who said, "I never saw a photograph that could not be improved with a bit of cropping", or something to that effect?

Don't know, don't care, as it's a patently absurd statement. If you follow it to its logical confusion, every photograph would end up being cropped away to nothing. If the composition is gotten right in-camera, cropping will detract from the composition, not improve it.

Quote from: Bobtrips
A camera LCD might be a good way to teach newbies composition.  (I certainly think using a digital set to B&W helps to start seeing  shapes and textures by taking colors out of the shot before processing.)

LCD viewfinders have their drawbacks (low resolution, lag, etc.), but they are better than some of the tiny, dark optical viewfinders found on some cameras. I think it would be cool to make a tethered shooting app that displays the live view feed from the camera inside an on-screen frame+mat with a user-defined aspect ratio (2:3, 4:5, 5:7, 11:17, etc) to pre-visualize what the captured image might look like matted and framed...

[attachment=13639:2003_08_...6_framed.jpg]


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