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Author Topic: Web targeted color space  (Read 12744 times)

Dansk

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Web targeted color space
« on: May 06, 2009, 02:57:07 pm »


 Well the world is changing and so are some needs of my clients. I just wrapped a decent sized food campaign which is pretty normal BUT the primary usage target is online marketing and email subscriptions etc. which is a first for me. Not that this is a big deal theres been plenty of my works rez'd down for online use before BUT these guys are getting a bit sticky about why the images look so great on my studio monitors but mighty gacky on their PC craptops. So it got me to thinking that maybe there was a better color space to target than the usual sRGB for web? Maybe there is someone here who has a better idea of how to manage these files to max out the impact? I figure 12x12" at 72 dpi should be plenty for resolution but typically I would offer SRGB color space and leave the color settings as I would for print.

I know I can increase saturation and contrast until the shots look smoking on their weak displays but then they look awful on mine so I wonder if theres a happy middle ground or perhaps some color destination that I should be looking at? Using Phase software here btw.

I know this doesn't specifically have anything to do with MFDB but the professional audience that might have dealt with this before likely spends more time browisng through here more than other areas of this site.

Thanks
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csp

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« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2009, 03:43:12 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
Well the world is changing and so are some needs of my clients. I just wrapped a decent sized food campaign which is pretty normal BUT the primary usage target is online marketing and email subscriptions etc. which is a first for me. Not that this is a big deal theres been plenty of my works rez'd down for online use before BUT these guys are getting a bit sticky about why the images look so great on my studio monitors but mighty gacky on their PC craptops. So it got me to thinking that maybe there was a better color space to target than the usual sRGB for web? Maybe there is someone here who has a better idea of how to manage these files to max out the impact? I figure 12x12" at 72 dpi should be plenty for resolution but typically I would offer SRGB color space and leave the color settings as I would for print.

I know I can increase saturation and contrast until the shots look smoking on their weak displays but then they look awful on mine so I wonder if theres a happy middle ground or perhaps some color destination that I should be looking at? Using Phase software here btw.

I know this doesn't specifically have anything to do with MFDB but the professional audience that might have dealt with this before likely spends more time browisng through here more than other areas of this site.

Thanks


may i ask what settings you use for monitor calibration ?
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Dansk

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« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2009, 03:54:58 pm »


 I run a custom calibration with a spider 2 pro. 6500K, no ambient, In my retouching room with no lights anyways. I get bang on accurate prints through a 3800 and never have any printed work related issues. Kind of odd really that crappy hardware has to be considered here but cest la vies. They're paying so I'm playing
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Snook

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« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2009, 04:26:10 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
I run a custom calibration with a spider 2 pro. 6500K, no ambient, In my retouching room with no lights anyways. I get bang on accurate prints through a 3800 and never have any printed work related issues. Kind of odd really that crappy hardware has to be considered here but cest la vies. They're paying so I'm playing
6500K isn't that rather warm? Sorry just wondering myself but always thought 6500K was way too warm for accurate color.
Thank
Snook
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Dansk

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« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2009, 04:38:58 pm »


  Well I used to use this guy who sets up most of the major players around here for color settings, print settings etc. Very knowledgeable and handles just about every local printers Communication arts award winning set ups and he set all this stuff up for me. I've just been being cheap the last couple years and carrying on with his settings and only calibrating with the eye and clicking continue for re-use previous settings so 6500K was it and I just stuck with it.

As I mentioned I havent had any complaints on any of my work when its being printed until this email issue ( Lotus notes the stuff looks rancid ) and I'm a mac only guy and figured this may have been crossed by someone here along the way. I have quite a few displays so I trust my color picker for highlight and shadow points and I dont pay much attention to the actual look of the file until it hits the retouching station where I study it in more detail. Running Mac cinema displays

Maybe I'm out in lahlah land altogether? What do you guys suggest? I could create a whole new profile for web targets and load it as nec
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Snook

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« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2009, 04:48:07 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
Well I used to use this guy who sets up most of the major players around here for color settings, print settings etc. Very knowledgeable and handles just about every local printers Communication arts award winning set ups and he set all this stuff up for me. I've just been being cheap the last couple years and carrying on with his settings and only calibrating with the eye and clicking continue for re-use previous settings so 6500K was it and I just stuck with it.

As I mentioned I havent had any complaints on any of my work when its being printed until this email issue ( Lotus notes the stuff looks rancid ) and I'm a mac only guy and figured this may have been crossed by someone here along the way. I have quite a few displays so I trust my color picker for highlight and shadow points and I dont pay much attention to the actual look of the file until it hits the retouching station where I study it in more detail. Running Mac cinema displays

Maybe I'm out in lahlah land altogether? What do you guys suggest? I could create a whole new profile for web targets and load it as nec

There is some member in here I think color wave or the guy with the dog and computer icon who probably can help you for sure.
I cannot help just noticed that you used 6500K and was surprised to see that.
If it works great.
Like I said some one here should pop in to help you. But I think that many people have different monitors and do not think you will ever get a color that everyone is pleasant viewing. Match that with different taste and opinions and uufff might be a long one.

Good luck
Snook
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Dansk

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« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2009, 04:57:18 pm »

Quote
But I think that many people have different monitors and do not think you will ever get a color that everyone is pleasant viewing. Match that with different taste and opinions and uufff might be a long one.

Indeed. I think I just discovered why he set me up at 6500K... I dont think this display can go any lower. I cant find anywhere on it where you can set a custom Kelvin temperature so thats probably why. Odd but then again these monitors are not known for being the ultimate answer for soft proofing. I just hope the new displays that seem to be forever in the works will be top level performers. If not I'm jumping to a proprietary company like Eizo or the like.

In the meantime I'm going to push up the contrast in the images until they are on the verge of barf and hope that gives them enough punch without going over the top.

Maybe someone else will drop a note or two in here that has some insight. Thanks guys

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Wayne Fox

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« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2009, 05:06:32 pm »

Quote from: Snook
6500K isn't that rather warm? Sorry just wondering myself but always thought 6500K was way too warm for accurate color.
Thank
Snook

What do you mean by accurate color?  

To be honest to get a good monitor to print match, I find 6500k too cool, much better match at around 6100k. (Apple Cinema Display calibrated with i1 pro).

Are you saying you use a number higher than 6500?
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Nick-T

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« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2009, 05:10:51 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
Indeed. I think I just discovered why he set me up at 6500K... I dont think this display can go any lower. I cant find anywhere on it where you can set a custom Kelvin temperature so thats probably why. Odd but then again these monitors are not known for being the ultimate answer for soft proofing. I just hope the new displays that seem to be forever in the works will be top level performers. If not I'm jumping to a proprietary company like Eizo or the like.

In the meantime I'm going to push up the contrast in the images until they are on the verge of barf and hope that gives them enough punch without going over the top.

Maybe someone else will drop a note or two in here that has some insight. Thanks guys

6500 aint warm... If anything it's a tad on the cool side. Lots of press guys used to run their monitors at 5000 to help simulate crappy paper stock.

srgb is just fine for your pics and using a different colour space won't make any difference to your clients as I'd be willing to bet they are viewing your images in a non colour-managed environment.

I think the bottom line here is that your clients has crappy monitors.

Why don't you send your colour management guy around to your clients (at your cost) to calibrate profile their screens?

Nick-T
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tho_mas

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« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2009, 05:20:12 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
So it got me to thinking that maybe there was a better color space to target than the usual sRGB for web?
actually not, sRGB is okay. for a logo or other graphics you could use the "web safe" colours but for the photographs sRGB is the right colour space.
you can't judge colours on a non colour managed system - no way! and you have to explain it to your clients.
you could buy them new displays maybe...

Quote from: Snook
6500K isn't that rather warm?
too cold! in average daylight indoor 5800K matches the white point of D50 quite well. on the other hand: without direct comparision to a D50 viewing box the white point is not that essential as you are adapting to the white point of the display if it is the brightest light source. but everything colder than 6500K is too cold anyhow.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 05:21:52 pm by tho_mas »
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Dansk

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« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2009, 05:30:56 pm »

Quote
I'd be willing to bet they are viewing your images in a non colour-managed environment.

Theres no need to guess this is a certainty. I've been suggesting to most of my clients for years to invest in a decent soft proofing station but its only fallen on deaf ears. I could calibrate their monitors close enough that they would not be unhappy with the results of what they would then see but... What they have asked me for is to consider that most of our market will not have any better displays than the 6 month old laptops these guys have and they asked if I could try and get the color set to look nice on their screens as they figure most of the intended audience will probably have worse displays. I was wondering about how most PC's come profiled out of the box and thought I might be able to target a space that was going to function better for this. Food is so delicate too if anything looks off its unappealing and not to toot my own horn here but these shots turned out excellent. Until you open them on their machines and then the color just goes bye bye. I messed around with one of their laptops to see if i could figure out the color settings but I'm not so good on a PC and I didnt come up with any settings that I could play with. Plus they kept mentioning that most consumers would simply be running the canned profile that their comp came with when they bought it and we should focus on tweaking the images to hit that mark instead of focusing on the hardware.

So the challenge was put out to me and I said I'd look into it and here we are. This board is full of fussy, discerning, talented eyeballs and theres a decent swath of commercial guys too so I thought I'd see who had what to say about it.

So far its sounds like we are all in the same boat and this is pretty new turf for me too. A Web focused campaign over print... Geez... Anyways the destination space so far is still looking like sRGB as you guys are echoing my thoughts more than anything which is good.. and bad I think I need to learn more about hardware market percentages and the like.

As a small rant... Just when we finally get all the digital print issues firmly behind us and a smooth ticking system now I'm getting redirected and my hands are tied. Maybe this is how musicians feel when they are told to focus on crappy sounding MP3 format?
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Nick-T

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« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2009, 05:40:38 pm »

Quote from: Dansk
but... What they have asked me for is to consider that most of our market will not have any better displays than the 6 month old laptops these guys have and they asked if I could try and get the color set to look nice on their screens as they figure most of the intended audience will probably have worse displays.

They have a point.. Not sure why your images should look bad on a newish display, can you provide a link? I've looked at my food stuff on a variety of fairly crappy screens and it looks fine..

Nick-T
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Dansk

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« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2009, 05:51:36 pm »


 I dont really show much of my work to anyone thats not paying for it I hope that doesn't offend its just the results of my previous experiences. The studio I used to work for got embroiled in some nasty law suits over the digital market and usage and exposure and blah blah blah so I just stay invisible the best I can.

The scary thing is they track everything now. Based on hits and click throughs theres little talk that can be offered over hard numbers so last years "test run" went far better than expected. It was a spin off of one of our regular print focused gigs so they used those files with success. Unfortunately the agency that did the work is now gone. The clients marketing director who set this all up has been laid off as well. The new team handling this are tech savvy but creatively... lacking... for lack of a better word so as Snook mention above

uufff

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CBarrett

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« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2009, 09:23:44 pm »

Man, this is such a pain in the butt.  I had a meeting with a client a week ago who was conderned about how one of our shots looked on her monitor.  I actually thought ALL of our shots looked like crap on her monitor. We talked a bit about calibration but she was like, "I have no control over how this stuff gets presented by the Architects, and they use all different projectors in all kinds of conditions..."

Oh man...  Prints I can guarantee.....files?  Is there a lowest common denominator?  I thought about getting a cheap PC and leaving the monitor at the out of the box settings to preview work on.... maybe putting a second folder of images on the disc entitled "Adjusted for your crap display"

Seriously, though.... when I first calibrated my Cinema Display with my i1 Pro, it had me drop the brightness from 100% to like 40% for a luminance of, what was it.... 120?  If all these monitors are jacked up out of the box, then how are the few of us who actually calibrate our systems going to produce files that look decent anywhere else?  Even Graphic Designers I work with rarely have calibrated screens..... frustrating indeed

My chromes always seemed to please clients whether they were viewing them with a Macbeth lightbox or a dirty window....

-CB
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csp

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« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2009, 03:52:37 am »

Quote from: Dansk
I run a custom calibration with a spider 2 pro. 6500K, no ambient, In my retouching room with no lights anyways. I get bang on accurate prints through a 3800 and never have any printed work related issues. Kind of odd really that crappy hardware has to be considered here but cest la vies. They're paying so I'm playing


the color temperature seems not to be the problem but what about your luminance setting ?  if you work in a dim room i guess it is set to a low level.  i would suggest that you move you monitor in an average  lit room calibrate the display to 140 - 2.2 /  6500 and check  how they look now. the ambient  light has a great effect on perception of contrast and color.
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Dansk

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« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2009, 02:46:31 pm »

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My chromes always seemed to please clients whether they were viewing them with a Macbeth lightbox or a dirty window....

Haha yes indeed. For the most part chromes were just delivered and there was neary a peep from anyone. The proofing was signed off typically with a polaroid proof right on set and then we would bracket a couple stops each way for a roll or twenty depending on the importance and then pull one out after looping through them... sometimes through a window by hand haha the good ol days. I miss em it was much more in our hands then. I think the issue in general with a lot of the market now is the game has become more intense and quality driven. Digital has given everyone a surge of interest and imagery is literally bombarding us from every angle nowadays so just from sheer exposure the average layman is getting a finer trained eye. This is both good and bad depending on how you choose to see it I guess but dealing with this specific issue regarding destination of??? is tricky.

Quote
the color temperature seems not to be the problem but what about your luminance setting ? if you work in a dim room i guess it is set to a low level. i would suggest that you move you monitor in an average lit room calibrate the display to 140 - 2.2 / 6500 and check how they look now. the ambient light has a great effect on perception of contrast and color.

My calibrator does not measure luminance but the original color tech who set me up did and I just run with that setting which is about 2/3 up on the slider so I'd say I'm 66% or thereabouts. I lean towards the bleeding edge of exposure on a lot of my work anyways so this seems a good fit for me.


All in all though as interesting as this thread has become I'm still in the dark about an effective solution. It looks like sRGB space is still it and I'll push the contrast/saturation point up as high as I can without turning the images into neon glowing radioactive brain poison.

Appreciate the input guys. Thanks

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geesbert

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« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2009, 04:19:30 pm »

may be it would help to get a crappy pc laptop or two and pull your images there before you hand it to the clients. once I heard this story of some musicians, (i am not sure, but it could be petshop boys), working in a super high end studio with best monitoring equipment available, but they also kept their rancid old car with a shitty radio, and if their music sounded ok when they cruzed around the block in this heap, they would sign it off.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2009, 11:49:12 pm »

There's absolutely no way you can control what people with uncalibrated monitors will see. The solution to your problem is: Buy a big bunch of top-quality monitors and have them all calibrated. Then give one to each client.

Or: persuade them all to accept prints again.

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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2009, 07:53:13 am »

hi
A bit late maybe.
D6500 grayscale, 2.2-2.3 gamma has been the standard for calibration.
Try to get within a dE of 3 for grayscaling.

Lightoutput varies a bit.
For CRT arround 110 cdm
For LCD arround 120-130 cdm

5500 is sometimes used for certain offset presses and their paper.
We photographers/retouchers should stick to D6500.
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Frank Doorhof

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« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2009, 07:57:52 am »

add.
To avoid confusion I always deliver an old fashioned contact sheet with the files to show them how it should look.
If their monitors show something else at least I'm not blaimed or passed for another photographer who delivers bad work that shows nicely on their monitor.
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