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Author Topic: INKJET PRINTING AND HUMIDITY  (Read 15494 times)

Gemmtech

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« on: May 04, 2009, 10:59:45 pm »

I've always wondered why so many people claim to have clogging problems with their inkjet printers, especially Epson.  I started using photo inkjet printers back in 1998 (HP Photosmart) and then switched to Epson with the Photo EX and never looked back.  At work I switched to Canon inkjets because they were about 10 times faster, but I continued to use Epson inkjets without any problems.  I read about those who have clogging problems and wonder why them and not me?  I still have an Epson 1280 from 2001 that runs perfectly and rarely ever clogs, nothing that a quick cleaning wont fix.  But then it dawned on me, my printers are in a lower level with a good bit of humidity.  Are there any studies that state that inkjet printers do better in humid conditions?  I haven't pulled the trigger and ordered the 7900 because of all the problems I've read about, but I will very soon and I have a feeling it wont clog either.  For those of you who have had the clogging issues have you ever measured the humidity level of the room your printer was in?  And for those of you who are like me and don't have the clogging problem, do you keep your printers in a room where there is high humidity?

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Ken Doo

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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 11:49:06 pm »

I used to (past tense) run a de-humidifier in my studio area.  Got a minor head clog on my Epson 7800 or 9800 (dunno).  Called Epson tech because the printer was still new to me.  The tech mentioned that they get very few calls about clogged heads from states with higher humidity.  I stopped using the de-humidifier.  I have not had a single clogged head since.  (I've had a damaged head from bad media, but that's a different story...)

I keep a hygometer next to my Epson 9800 now and I can keep an eye on the humidity in the studio.  It's all good!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 11:49:50 pm by kdphotography »
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bill t.

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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 11:58:59 pm »

Yes, humidity seems to bother inkjet printers to varying degrees.

When I put my 9880 (and formerly my 7800) to bed for more than a few hours I put a plastic tray containing a sponge and lots of water next to heads, then partially seal that area by adding a crude foamcore wall to kind of isolate head/sponge area.  The sponge tray rests on a second piece of foamcore so it doesn't press down on the ink lines.  With this scheme I rarely ever have head clogs, although I still get a line bubble once in a blue moon.  When I do this I also put a piece of tape over the "on" button to prevent activating the printer with this setup in place...fortunately if I forget to remove the tray nothing bad happens beyond a warning on the LCD.

Others put a large cover over the printer with a tub of water on the floor, operate humidifiers in the room, etc...human ingenuity seems limitless in these regards.
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 09:53:13 am »

Quote from: kdphotography
I used to (past tense) run a de-humidifier in my studio area.  Got a minor head clog on my Epson 7800 or 9800 (dunno).  Called Epson tech because the printer was still new to me.  The tech mentioned that they get very few calls about clogged heads from states with higher humidity.  I stopped using the de-humidifier.  I have not had a single clogged head since.  (I've had a damaged head from bad media, but that's a different story...)

I keep a hygometer next to my Epson 9800 now and I can keep an eye on the humidity in the studio.  It's all good!


Do you know what % humidity you are keeping that room where the printers reside?
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Bruce Watson

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« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2009, 10:36:41 am »

This has discussed thoroughly a number of times in the last four or five years on the Yahoo group EpsonWideFormat. You might want to join and search the archives. There's a lot of reports there from users all over the world.

My take on it is that relative humidity is important, but not the sole cause of clogging. The other biggie is ambient temperature. Keeping the printer (and substrates) at darkroom conditions (about 20C, 45-55% RH) seems to give the best results. Ambient temperature contributes to the *rate* at which evaporation occurs, while RH controls how much water vapor the ambient atmosphere can hold and therefore contributes to the tendency for vaporization to take place, which in turn also contributes to the rate of evaporation. Of course, as the rate of evaporation increases, clog formation increases. So keeping the rate of evaporation down is, in general, a good thing for clogging issues.

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marcsitkin

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« Reply #5 on: May 05, 2009, 10:50:34 am »

I can say that I've experienced much less head clogging issues since moving from Hartford, CT to Fort Lauderdale, Fl. I'm sure that the higher relative humidity in Florida is the major contributing factor.
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Light Seeker

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« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2009, 03:00:55 pm »

I ran an Epson 2200 with third party inks (MIS) for years. In the winter, when the relative humidity fell below 28%, I would have regular issues with clogs. I installed a room humidifier and the problem went away. In the summer, with the humidity around 45%, all was well.

I replaced the 2200 with another, a little over a year ago. It does better at low humidity, but I can still run into problems. I also noticed that a friends printer, living in a room at 25% humidity in the winter, running Epson inks, was fine. I recall not having as many winter clogs when I ran Epson inks a few years back.

I recently upgraded to a 3800, and I've dedicated my 2200 to monochrome inks (Cone). Epson inks will remain in the 3800. Ask me again this time next year how things went.     I hope to be able to do away with the room humidifier this coming winter.

As another poster said, humidity is a factor, but not the only factor, with clogged nozzles.

Terry.
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HowardG

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« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2009, 11:05:06 pm »

I seem to get many nozzle clogs on both my 7600 and now my 7900.  Humidity has never seemed to have an effect here for me and I have tried putting a humidifier in the room in the past.  Interestingly, I get far fewer clogs in the winter, when the humidity is significantly lower (certainly indoors anyway) than in the summer here in Western PA.

Howard
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Chris Gilroy

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« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 05:47:01 pm »

Quote from: HowardG
I seem to get many nozzle clogs on both my 7600 and now my 7900.  Humidity has never seemed to have an effect here for me and I have tried putting a humidifier in the room in the past.  Interestingly, I get far fewer clogs in the winter, when the humidity is significantly lower (certainly indoors anyway) than in the summer here in Western PA.

Howard


Howard - there was a previous post back up there that mentioned room temperature as a factor as well - this may explain your winter performance being better.
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Ryan Grayley

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« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 06:05:16 pm »

Quote from: Gemmtech
I haven't pulled the trigger and ordered the 7900 because of all the problems I've read about, but I will very soon and I have a feeling it wont clog either.

I have been using an Epson 9600 for six years or so and it has had no more than one or two minor clogs a year.
So I had a feeling that a 7900 wouldn't clog either. How very mistaken I was - and so my 7900 is getting used less and less. But my HP Z3200 is getting used more and more. No hassles - it just works.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2009, 06:23:55 pm by Ionaca »
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Ken Doo

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« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2009, 01:32:38 am »

Quote from: Gemmtech
Do you know what % humidity you are keeping that room where the printers reside?


Typically, my studio area is about 50-60% RH, but proabbly never lower than 40%.  Seasonal temperatures and weather obviously have an effect.

MHMG

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« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2009, 05:05:59 pm »

According to Epson's own specs on the 7900/9900, the lower operating limit for relative humidity is 40%.  Essentially impossible in a northern U.S. climate in the winter time. One will need to build a special vapor proof interior room (using drywall with an aluminum foil backing) and with no adjoining outer building walls which would cause potential condensation and then humidify just that room, or tent the machine and humidify the tent, or something like this approach in order to hold Epson's specification during the winter months.  When outdoor temperatures go below freezing, indoor humidity levels plummet at ambient indoor temperatures in the human comfort zone. Furnace humidifiers can get you back from below 10% to maybe 20-25% RH, but trying to pump any more moisture into the building and you'll have water running down the walls and windows.  Canon's humidity specs are 10% RH on the x100 series printers, and Hp's specs call for 20% minimum on the Z series.  How rigidly one should adhere to the manufacturer's environmental operating recommendations, I don't really know, but personally I take them seriously.


Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 05:15:34 pm by MHMG »
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2009, 09:02:13 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
According to Epson's own specs on the 7900/9900, the lower operating limit for relative humidity is 40%.  Essentially impossible in a northern U.S. climate in the winter time. One will need to build a special vapor proof interior room (using drywall with an aluminum foil backing) and with no adjoining outer building walls which would cause potential condensation and then humidify just that room, or tent the machine and humidify the tent, or something like this approach in order to hold Epson's specification during the winter months.  When outdoor temperatures go below freezing, indoor humidity levels plummet at ambient indoor temperatures in the human comfort zone. Furnace humidifiers can get you back from below 10% to maybe 20-25% RH, but trying to pump any more moisture into the building and you'll have water running down the walls and windows.  Canon's humidity specs are 10% RH on the x100 series printers, and Hp's specs call for 20% minimum on the Z series.  How rigidly one should adhere to the manufacturer's environmental operating recommendations, I don't really know, but personally I take them seriously.


Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


Actually this isn't very accurate.  Naturally there are a lot of factors, windows being a very critical item.  In designing houses we always try to keep the RH to under 55% (I do a lot of swimming pools and spas inside houses), to keep condensation at bay but a "normal" operating range for a whole house humidifier is around 25% - 45% RH.  The outside temperature as well as indoor temperature will partially determine RH, but if you get below around 10% you will start having other problems inside the house.  Furnace connected whole house humidifiers wont have any problem keeping the RH at between 25%-45%, with the caveat that the unit is sized correctly for the house.  It would be difficult to maintain 40% at 0 degrees, but not impossible, certainly 25%-35% is very doable at that temp.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2009, 09:03:19 pm by Gemmtech »
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BobDavid

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« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2009, 01:36:43 pm »

Move to Florida and all of your clogging problems will be solved.
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MHMG

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« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2009, 04:01:59 pm »

Quote from: Gemmtech
In designing houses we always try to keep the RH to under 55% (I do a lot of swimming pools and spas inside houses), to keep condensation at bay but a "normal" operating range for a whole house humidifier is around 25% - 45% RH.  The outside temperature as well as indoor temperature will partially determine RH, but if you get below around 10% you will start having other problems inside the house.  Furnace connected whole house humidifiers wont have any problem keeping the RH at between 25%-45%, with the caveat that the unit is sized correctly for the house.  It would be difficult to maintain 40% at 0 degrees, but not impossible, certainly 25%-35% is very doable at that temp.

You must not live in a very cold climate. It isn't that you can't find a whole house humidifier that will deliver enough water vapor to reach 35% RH in the dead of winter. It's that if you set it there, it will cause structural damage to most homes in the northern US and Canada because the interior of the walls typically do not have perfectly seamed insulation, and most window casements aren't that perfect either. There will be cold spots in the walls and windows that will allow the moisture supplied by your humidifier to condense on those cold surfaces. Then comes mould and dry rot inside the walls.  When I lived in Southern Maryland in a home of modern construction, I could indeed humidify the house to 30-35% RH and maintain 20-21 centigrade interior temperature with a whole house humidifier during the winter months. Yet on rare occasion during the winter the temperature could drop significantly below freezing. On those days, condensation on the interior of the windows was visible. So, this home in this location was right at the bitter edge of safe humidification in the winter time to 30% RH.  Move that same home further north where many weeks are spent well below freezing and one will then have real serious problems trying to safely maintain that 30-35% RH level.  Epson's 40% RH recommendation for its 7900/9900 printers is simply outside such a home's safety margin, so one will need to do as I suggested and create a vapor sealed inner room and humidify only that room to 40%RH, or ignore the spec altogether. Your choice.
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Martin Kristiansen

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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2009, 10:55:18 am »

I think there must be more to this issue than humidity. I live at a little over 1600 m (one mile) altitude and we get summer rain only and not much of that. Winter we will not see a cloud for near 4 months and it gets horribly dry. I don't do much printing in winter, don't do much at all in winter truth be told, and in 4 years I have yet to get a clog on my 4800. Temperatures range from 0 C in winter to 35 C in summer in the place my printer lives. I cover it with a cloth when it is not working and I keep it clear of dust, that's pretty much all the attention it has ever had. I have a 11880 on order and hope it behaves in the same fashion.
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2009, 11:38:58 am »

Quote from: MHMG
You must not live in a very cold climate. It isn't that you can't find a whole house humidifier that will deliver enough water vapor to reach 35% RH in the dead of winter. It's that if you set it there, it will cause structural damage to most homes in the northern US and Canada because the interior of the walls typically do not have perfectly seamed insulation, and most window casements aren't that perfect either. There will be cold spots in the walls and windows that will allow the moisture supplied by your humidifier to condense on those cold surfaces. Then comes mould and dry rot inside the walls.  When I lived in Southern Maryland in a home of modern construction, I could indeed humidify the house to 30-35% RH and maintain 20-21 centigrade interior temperature with a whole house humidifier during the winter months. Yet on rare occasion during the winter the temperature could drop significantly below freezing. On those days, condensation on the interior of the windows was visible. So, this home in this location was right at the bitter edge of safe humidification in the winter time to 30% RH.  Move that same home further north where many weeks are spent well below freezing and one will then have real serious problems trying to safely maintain that 30-35% RH level.  Epson's 40% RH recommendation for its 7900/9900 printers is simply outside such a home's safety margin, so one will need to do as I suggested and create a vapor sealed inner room and humidify only that room to 40%RH, or ignore the spec altogether. Your choice.

There are a lot of factors that go into it, but you are completely wrong to say that maintaining 35% RH in the dead of winder will cause structural damage to a home.  We do it all the time!  Have you ever been in a home that had either a swimming pool or hot tub installed inside?  I'll agree the home has to be designed and built correctly especially when extreme cold temperatures are reached, but you wont damage a home with 25%-35% relative humidity.  There are remedies even if your home is older.  In a home you want to have triple pane windows, that are installed correctly and you want to have it well insulated.  I'll agree that if your home has single pane windows they would need changed or you will see condensation and even some insulated windows would show signs of condensation.
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MHMG

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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2009, 03:59:04 pm »

Quote from: Gemmtech
There are a lot of factors that go into it, but you are completely wrong to say that maintaining 35% RH in the dead of winder will cause structural damage to a home.  We do it all the time!  Have you ever been in a home that had either a swimming pool or hot tub installed inside?  I'll agree the home has to be designed and built correctly especially when extreme cold temperatures are reached, but you wont damage a home with 25%-35% relative humidity.  There are remedies even if your home is older.  In a home you want to have triple pane windows, that are installed correctly and you want to have it well insulated.  I'll agree that if your home has single pane windows they would need changed or you will see condensation and even some insulated windows would show signs of condensation.

With all due respect, it seems to me that you are deliberately steering the argument to score points about your spa and pool design expertise. I didn't say that engineers can't purpose-build a building to safely handle 25-35%RH in the wintertime in cold northern climates.  Many museums have indeed designed flatlined 50%RH indoor environments for facilities located in severe cold winter climates (and spent millions of extra dollars and often ran into major redesign headaches to achieve it).  However, you are potentially misleading the forum participants for skirting around the reality that the typical home or office building is clearly not designed or constructed well enough to handle 35% in cold winter climates. I spent 10 years in the museum world working on these very issues. Retrofitting an older building to hold higher humidities in the wintertime is also fine in theory. The devil is in the details and again, hiring a construction firm that actually understands moisture migration, not just how to calculate heating and cooling loads, is critical to the success of these projects. I repeat: the typical American home or office building is simply not constructed adequately to do what you are suggesting if it's located in a cold winter climate that routinely falls into subzero temperatures.

That is my cautionary advice to those who would buy an Epson 7900 for a home or office for use in a cold northern wintertime climate. If you locate the printer in a room with at least one adjoining outer wall, and then simply turn on a humidifier to meet 40%RH, you are going to get into trouble with damage to your home or office (if indeed you don't see water running down the windows first). The dewpoint temperature where condensation occurs for 20 degree C/40%RH  air is about 6 degrees C. When it's minus 20 degrees C outside, do you really believe an interior spot within your outer walls isn't at 6 degrees C?.  You need a really perfect vapor barrier (better than just drywall and latex paint) and no gaps, cracks or lack of insulation around joists and window casements, etc., to keep this moisture load away from the cold spots. Most homes simply aren't that perfect in their vapor seals and fitted insulation. I've even seen problems in modern triple pane windows because the window manufacturer didn't get it right.  

My guess is most printmakers are probably just ignoring the Epson 7900 lower RH specification altogether. We should ask Michael to measure the RH in the area he is working with his Epson 7900 during the winter months in Toronto, Canada. I'd be shocked if it is above 25%RH, and most inexpensive RH meters don't even accurately read lower RH levels (below 25%RH) due to hysteresis effects.  Whether the printer suffers for it and/or exhibits more clogging, I don't know, but I assume Epson set the 40%RH specification by studying the issue carefully. I applaud Epson for setting a cautious specification, because it is a performance disadvantage compared to the thermal head technologies offered by their competition.

I stand by my convictions and see no need to carry the discussion further into the fine points of moisture migration and microclimates.  Others can choose to run a humidifier in a cold northern climate for 35-40% RH output and ignore my advice.  They will discover for themselves how long they can go before calling in a mould and mildew abatement company.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 04:01:22 pm by MHMG »
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Gemmtech

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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2009, 08:38:05 pm »

Quote from: MHMG
According to Epson's own specs on the 7900/9900, the lower operating limit for relative humidity is 40%.  Essentially impossible in a northern U.S. climate in the winter time. One will need to build a special vapor proof interior room (using drywall with an aluminum foil backing) and with no adjoining outer building walls which would cause potential condensation and then humidify just that room, or tent the machine and humidify the tent, or something like this approach in order to hold Epson's specification during the winter months.  When outdoor temperatures go below freezing, indoor humidity levels plummet at ambient indoor temperatures in the human comfort zone. Furnace humidifiers can get you back from below 10% to maybe 20-25% RH, but trying to pump any more moisture into the building and you'll have water running down the walls and windows.  Canon's humidity specs are 10% RH on the x100 series printers, and Hp's specs call for 20% minimum on the Z series.  How rigidly one should adhere to the manufacturer's environmental operating recommendations, I don't really know, but personally I take them seriously.


Best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com


Mark,  I'm not going to beat a dead horse here so this will be my last reply on the subject as well.  You telling me about house design and humidity would be like me telling the Pope about Catholicism.  House design, building and renovation has been my vocation for about 30 years.  I'm not highly specialized in swimming pools and hot tubs per se, but inside a home they push the envelope for humidity control.  

Anyhow, above is your first comment regarding humidity, read what you wrote, as I stated before it's inaccurate and almost completely off base, you subsequently changed the rules and before long you will be stating If you live within the Artic circle you will have a difficult time maintaining 20% humidity.  

You stated

"When outdoor temperatures go below freezing (approx. below 0 degrees C or 32 F), indoor humidity levels plummet at ambient indoor temperatures in the human comfort zone. Furnace humidifiers can get you back from below 10% to maybe 20-25% RH, but trying to pump any more moisture into the building and you'll have water running down the walls and windows."  

This statement is 100% false.

I stated that achieving 40% humidity at 0 is a little more tricky, but certainly not close to impossible.  I am not misleading anybody.  High humidity and moisture issues are not that difficult to isolate, are your windows wet?  Are your outside walls inside wet?
We are speaking about cold climates here, slightly different discussion in Florida, Houston, NO etc.

Epson might engineer and write a specification to cover their asses, imagine that?  Epson might know that 25%-35% humidity will take care of 95% of all their printers and so they spec it at 40% and they are covered for any type of warranty claim.  When I design a house all structural supports are designed at plus 50% minimum and I read a lot of warranty cards regarding various products and the manufacturers allow themselves a lot of wiggle room.  The rule of thumb for controlling humidity in a home especially the wet locations is keep it below 55% and that will keep the water off the walls and between 40%-45% is ideal.

Remember it's a double edge sword, too low humidity will do just as much damage if not more than too much humidity.  Wood doors, windows, flooring, furniture are ALL affected by humidity as are many other items.

"That is my cautionary advice to those who would buy an Epson 7900 for a home or office for use in a cold northern wintertime climate. If you locate the printer in a room with at least one adjoining outer wall, and then simply turn on a humidifier to meet 40%RH, you are going to get into trouble with damage to your home or office (if indeed you don't see water running down the windows first)"

And this is the type of blanket statement is just plain misleading and inaccurate.  You can't say cold northern wintertime climate.  There are a lot of variables and before you do any damage to your home you most definitely will see ice on your windows, more than likely ice instead of water because if they are that poor of a window the cold transfer will keep the water frozen unless you have the heat so high inside the house, but that brings up another problem, furnaces have to be speced correctly to heat a home properly.  

And remember, you don't want to completely seal a home, it has to breathe, it's alive!!

"Others can choose to run a humidifier in a cold northern climate for 35-40% RH output and ignore my advice. They will discover for themselves how long they can go before calling in a mould and mildew abatement company."

They wont have to call a mold and mildew mitigation & remediation company, their windows and walls will tell them if they are set too high.  The problems with mold and mildews tend to be more in hidden areas below grade, i.e. basements or in houses where old school builders sealed the houses so tight that it trapped the moisture in the walls, we never fell into that trap since we always knew better.  Have you ever seen a steam shower inside a home?  How about a sauna?  There are actually products on the market that will help almost eliminate mold and mildew from growing, special wall boards and paints to name a few.  The reason why our clients call us and not you to design and build them a home is because we know what we are talking about.  

"I repeat: the typical American home or office building is simply not constructed adequately to do what you are suggesting if it's located in a cold winter climate that routinely falls into subzero temperatures."

You repeat?  Read your 1st post which is what I replied to, it never mentions subzero temperatures.  I don't even know how you can state unequivocally that the typical American home or office building is simply not constructed adequately to do what I am suggesting, how in the heck do you know this?  And what was I suggesting?  I suggested that having humidity at 25%-35% inside a home when the temp outside was 0 degrees F was NOT a problem,  but that hitting 40% was a little more of a challenge.  

OK, enough about humidity inside a house?

Ok, please don't fire back that Antartica ..............................  
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 08:41:34 pm by Gemmtech »
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MHMG

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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2009, 10:31:52 pm »

Quote from: Gemmtech
You repeat?  Read your 1st post which is what I replied to, it never mentions subzero temperatures.

The freezing point of water is zero degrees centigrade. A subzero temperature is below zero. I don't think that's inconsistent with my statements, but obviously you prefer your measurements stated in fahrenheit. In the ten years I was at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington DC, I listened as experts on building construction and contractor after contractor debated how easy it is to maintain moderate relative humidity indoors during cold wintertime conditions. I even listened as experts who wanted lucrative museum consulting contracts claimed they could flatline a building to 21C (oops, 70 degrees F) and 50%RH plus or minus 2% and yet still keep energy costs the same as when the building is allowed to seasonally cycle in temperature and humidity with temperature setbacks on nights and weekends. That logic defies the laws of thermodynamics, but there were experts out there that fiercely defended this position.  Let's just say that I did come to realize that many experts do share your opinion.  However, many don't, so let's agree to disagree. I will meet you in Antarctica sometime for a frozen cup of coffee.  

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