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Author Topic: Full frame choices  (Read 3519 times)

mephisto2061

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« on: May 03, 2009, 12:43:13 pm »

hi all .. i've been a canon 400d user for a few years and am planning to upgrade to a ff dslr.  i only have one lens (sigma 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 - obviously not the greatest but it has served me well in my beginner years). hence, i am flexible b/w the 5d mkii, d700 and a900.  

i've decided its going to be either the canon or the nikon, but am absolutely unable to make up my mind.  i think on balance, i prefer the d700 body over the 5d (marginally).  i like the fact that it has a built-in flash which will be very convenient as a fill flash - i dont see myself carrying around an external flash.  and i think i can live w/o the 21mp or hd video for now.  

the problem is regarding lens choices.  i think the canon 24-105 f/4 IS offers great value for money and would be a go well with the 5d.  for the d700 however, the only good general purpose lens seems to be the 24-70 f/2.8.  obviously it is a great lens but it is less convenient in terms of size/wt and its incremental cost over the d700 body is almost twice as much as for the canon 24-105.

appreciate your thoughts on lens choices for the d700 (w/o making this another 5d vs d700 comparison).  are there any other good alternatives (clearly i dont want to waste a good camera with cheap lenses) to the 24-70?  should i consider primes instead (i have never used primes)?

thanks.

wolfnowl

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« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 02:25:37 am »

You're the only one who can answer that question to your own satisfaction, and you're really only going to be able to do it by going to a camera store and trying out both cameras and lenses, making some images, taking them home, reviewing them on your computer, and deciding what works for you depending on your style of shooting.  And yes, that was all one sentence!

Mike.
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EdRosch

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« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 07:02:42 am »

Quote from: mephisto2061
hi all .. i've been a canon 400d user for a few years and am planning to upgrade to a ff dslr.

If I might ask,  why do you think full frame is the necessary next step?  

What sort of photography do you plan to do?   Are you planning to specialize in any one type and, if so, what?    
In what form and size is your final output going to be?  Is this a hobby or do you have pro aspirations?  
And.......are you, or are you married to a Dentist?    

Ed
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Geoff Wittig

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« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2009, 07:04:08 am »

Quote from: mephisto2061
hi all .. i've been a canon 400d user for a few years and am planning to upgrade to a ff dslr.  i only have one lens (sigma 18-200 f/3.5-6.3 - obviously not the greatest but it has served me well in my beginner years). hence, i am flexible b/w the 5d mkii, d700 and a900.  

i've decided its going to be either the canon or the nikon, but am absolutely unable to make up my mind.  i think on balance, i prefer the d700 body over the 5d (marginally).  i like the fact that it has a built-in flash which will be very convenient as a fill flash - i dont see myself carrying around an external flash.  and i think i can live w/o the 21mp or hd video for now.  

the problem is regarding lens choices.  i think the canon 24-105 f/4 IS offers great value for money and would be a go well with the 5d.  for the d700 however, the only good general purpose lens seems to be the 24-70 f/2.8.  obviously it is a great lens but it is less convenient in terms of size/wt and its incremental cost over the d700 body is almost twice as much as for the canon 24-105.

appreciate your thoughts on lens choices for the d700 (w/o making this another 5d vs d700 comparison).  are there any other good alternatives (clearly i dont want to waste a good camera with cheap lenses) to the 24-70?  should i consider primes instead (i have never used primes)?

thanks.

I think it depends on what you shoot. Both Canon and Nikon have great systems, each with strengths and weaknesses. Sony's a900 is appealing in a lot of ways and there are a few wonderful lenses in their system, but it has far less depth than the other two, and Sony's committment to the system remains to be seen. Just my two cents, but currently Canon has a better selection of long lenses, and their 70-200 f:2.8 and f:4 "L" lenses simply outclass the Nikon equivalents. On the other hand, Nikon's 14-24 f:2.8 lens far outclasses Canon's equivalent wide zooms.

The other issue is ergonomics and 'fit'; it's worth visiting a well-stocked camera store and handling both the Eos-5D II and the D700, seeing through the viewfinders and playing with the controls. Then go with the one that fits you better.
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Jim Pascoe

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« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2009, 08:18:57 am »

I have to agree with most of what has been said already.  Just go into a store, pick up the cameras and lens combinations that interest you, and go by feel.  If you have been using Canon, perhaps you will find sticking to their interface easier.  All of these cameras will produce stunning pictures anyway.

For me the viewfinder experience would be quite important.

Good luck

Jim

PS.  I should add, that in my experience, to get the best out of these cameras it is worth sticking to the best quality lenses.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2009, 08:20:46 am by Jim Pascoe »
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mephisto2061

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« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2009, 08:43:29 am »

Quote from: EdRosch
If I might ask,  why do you think full frame is the necessary next step?  

What sort of photography do you plan to do?   Are you planning to specialize in any one type and, if so, what?    
In what form and size is your final output going to be?  Is this a hobby or do you have pro aspirations?  
And.......are you, or are you married to a Dentist?    

Ed

Ed, good question.  simply put, for me, a full frame NOT the necessary next step. i have no pro aspirations (for now at least), and its just a hobby.  for me photography is partly about the art and significantly also about the craft - i love gadgets.  i know i'll get blasted for this by purists but to each his own.  and....... im not a dentist, im a banker (oops, is that a bad word?)

thinking about it with a longer term perspective, i think its a logical next step for me to get some good glass - i have only 1 lens.  and i think its worth moving to full frame instead of getting more dx lenses...

also, im not really specialising in one type, but am biased towards landscape and general travel photography.

DarkPenguin

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« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2009, 08:55:29 am »

Quote from: mephisto2061
Ed, good question.  simply put, for me, a full frame NOT the necessary next step. i have no pro aspirations (for now at least), and its just a hobby.  for me photography is partly about the art and significantly also about the craft - i love gadgets.  i know i'll get blasted for this by purists but to each his own.  and....... im not a dentist, im a banker (oops, is that a bad word?)
Yes.  You aren't buying this with your bailout bonus, are you?  If so just get the D3X and have it encrusted in diamonds.  Nothing else will do.

If you are thinking about nikon you might want to look around www.bythom.com for lens reviews and whatnot.
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mephisto2061

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« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2009, 09:00:45 am »

Quote from: DarkPenguin
Yes.  You aren't buying this with your bailout bonus, are you?  If so just get the D3X and have it encrusted in diamonds.  Nothing else will do.

If you are thinking about nikon you might want to look around www.bythom.com for lens reviews and whatnot.

yes bythom is a great resource, thx. (thought about the diamond-encrusted d3x, but thought that would not be a great idea as i might not have a job a month from now)

EdRosch

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« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2009, 09:25:39 am »

Quote from: mephisto2061
Ed, good question.  simply put, for me, a full frame NOT the necessary next step. i have no pro aspirations (for now at least), and its just a hobby.  for me photography is partly about the art and significantly also about the craft - i love gadgets.  i know i'll get blasted for this by purists but to each his own.  and....... im not a dentist, im a banker (oops, is that a bad word?)

thinking about it with a longer term perspective, i think its a logical next step for me to get some good glass - i have only 1 lens.  and i think its worth moving to full frame instead of getting more dx lenses...

also, im not really specialising in one type, but am biased towards landscape and general travel photography.


If I might suggest that a quality crop camera ( like the D300 or 40D) plus good glass, plus investing in the rest of the photography system, including a high quality calibrated monitor (a solid grand there!) and printer as well as some quality glass would yield both better results and equipment you could grow with for years.  I had a rather humbling experience at an art show several weeks ago in which I was chatting with a photographer who had absolutely stunning 20 x 30 gallery prints, I mean color, sharpness, as well as the overall composition was 'to die for'.  He was quite engaging and I asked him what equipment he was using to get those results, expecting to hear some megapix monster.  Nope, he was using a Fuji 6 mpix camera and printing on a 3-4 generation old Epson printer.  He has quite simply mastered his equipment and his results spoke for themselves.

My feeling is you'd be better served with a versatile well balanced system and really learn it then jumping to a higher end body and skimping elsewhere.  Getting FF capable glass and using it on a crop body is not a waste and gives you the upgrade path IF and when you decide you need it.

Something to think about.

Ed
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mephisto2061

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« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2009, 10:20:50 am »

Quote from: EdRosch
If I might suggest that a quality crop camera ( like the D300 or 40D) plus good glass, plus investing in the rest of the photography system, including a high quality calibrated monitor (a solid grand there!) and printer as well as some quality glass would yield both better results and equipment you could grow with for years.  I had a rather humbling experience at an art show several weeks ago in which I was chatting with a photographer who had absolutely stunning 20 x 30 gallery prints, I mean color, sharpness, as well as the overall composition was 'to die for'.  He was quite engaging and I asked him what equipment he was using to get those results, expecting to hear some megapix monster.  Nope, he was using a Fuji 6 mpix camera and printing on a 3-4 generation old Epson printer.  He has quite simply mastered his equipment and his results spoke for themselves.

My feeling is you'd be better served with a versatile well balanced system and really learn it then jumping to a higher end body and skimping elsewhere.  Getting FF capable glass and using it on a crop body is not a waste and gives you the upgrade path IF and when you decide you need it.

Something to think about.

Ed

20 x 30 gallery quality prints with 6 mp is certainly impressive.  appreciate your thoughts, i'll have a think about my overall system.

DonWeston

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« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2009, 10:48:35 am »

I am a dentist, fwiw, and own a D700 and D300, but have had Canon digital gear over the last 8 yrs also starting with a D30 to the current XSi, which I still own also. The advantages to FF are specific, some like wide angles are now wide angle lenses, based on 35mm think. FF I feel gives better tonality, and re: D700, significant drop in image noise at higher ISOs. My default for walking around daytime is 800, and I could go higher and still make large prints without fault. That is about it, my D300 images look at least as detailed, have better sharpness at the edges with current lenses I have. I refuse to buy and use only MF primes to achieve this, but do have some, like a 40mm CV and 28/2 Nikor, but for general imagery, I like zooms and use them. My favorite kit for the D300 is a 16-85VR and 70-300VR but even the 55-200VR is incredibly sharp.

Now one can buy better glass and achieve the same thing in FF, but with two big negatives for me, first the weight and second expense. I find this hard to justify, and will wait for the next camera generation to arise and decide on which system I want to expand further. Bottomline, when printed it can be extremely hard to tell differences, I print large 14x21 and bigger, up to 24x36. The differences are small between two 12mp cameras, and often the DOF adventages to DX  overway the smooth tonal transitions of FX. I guess I could easily live with either system, but can have both. I would love a MF dig system but  I must be too poor a dentist to afford that, or maybe use the word JUSTIFY such an expenditure with two kids in college. I also don't know at 50+ whether I want to carry such loads anylonger. I used to shoot in MF and LF, but today is anew day....hope this helps...if not just ask. Don
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Dale_Cotton2

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« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2009, 11:52:16 am »

One lens to consider for Nikon FF is the venerable 35-70/2.8. This a a pro lens both in build and optical quality. The copy I have fully matches its reputation for being stunningly sharp and is not all that big/heavy. I know it doesn't cover as much focal length territory as a 24-105, but using it for landscapes for many years I rarely felt constrained. Unfortunately, it's not an IS design, so a tripod needed. Think of it as the lens to go to when you really want to eke the most detail out of a scene.

It's also worth looking into what Sigma, Tamron, and Tokina offer. The Sigma 70-200/2.8 I used as a companion to the 35-70 was fully up to the task.

Well-respected Nikon lens reviews: Bjørn Rørslett.

As to the body debate, the arguments you're getting in favour of sticking to a crop sensor are perfectly valid in maintaining that you would not take a hit in IQ under most circumstances. But your counter argument, that you want a tool for which you can feel pride of ownership, is also perfectly valid. The thing to keep in mind in that regard is that a Nikon D700X is inevitable, so you want to be sure you wouldn't feel any letdown when it is finally announced, if you do opt for the D700.
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mephisto2061

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« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2009, 12:40:15 pm »

Don, Dale, all very good points, thanks.  yes, a FF would be a great tool that i would enjoy, probably more than a D300, even though my skill level does not honestly JUSTIFY requiring a D700.  In fact, if i spend more time with my current kit (not easy given my real job isn't exactly 9-5 / mon-fri), im sure i could get a lot more out of my modest 400d + ordinary sigma lens.  I guess it comes down to how expensive a toy you can afford.  and i've found that getting a new toy that you love almost always brings a fresh burst of enthusiasm to go out and improve your skill (not just in photography).... cheers.

Tony Ventouris Photography

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« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2009, 12:44:12 pm »

Have you considered an original 5D?  Their prices have come way down and still offer exceptional quality.  The D700 offers better high ISO...but the 5D is usuable to 1600 with no issue.  3200 is great is certain situations with good exposure.  Often noise reduction can make it clean as well.  I've shot many frames at 3200 where you could never guess it was 3200.  

The 5D won't be as demanding on lenses as the 5DmkII.  You will also have 12.8mp vs. 10 of the mkII sRAW.  The full RAW files are huge.  Something to consider if you won't be shooting with the large files.

I shoot with both the 5D and mkII and either is really interchangeable.  I get fantastic results from both.

douglasf13

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« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 01:05:32 pm »

I would start by building up your lens lineup first.  A 50mm prime and a fast zoom will do wonders for you.  I guess that if you build up lenses first, I'd go Canon, since that's the camera body that you already have.  If not......Sony A900 all the way  
« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 01:19:37 pm by douglasf13 »
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pegelli

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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2009, 02:33:38 am »

Quote from: douglasf13
If not......Sony A900 all the way  

Second that. Just imagine all your lenses (even 20 year old 2nd hand ones you find) being stabilised. If you got by sofar with one lens the current sony/3rd party A-mount lineup is certainly deep enough to suit your needs for a long time to come.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2009, 02:34:06 am by pegelli »
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