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Author Topic: Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome  (Read 3819 times)

tived

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« on: May 01, 2009, 10:08:06 am »

Hi guys,

I have to send out of few jobs and have been in contact with the people at the other end, asked them questions etc..

So, I have a little double sided image and graphic to be printed , that is going to be printed in mone or black and white through a commercial printer its a franchise!, so the printing isn't actually done there.

Originally this was send to them by a self proclaimed "Designer", but I doubt that he packaged the Indesign file properly. We had supplied one of the images. According to the "printer" the fonts were missing and images were in low res...so from the outset we are behind. Files were swapped back and forth between the "Designers" and one of the parties who's job it is. A proof was send via email as a PDF, looked great on screen! Some one OK'ed it! 30000 of these beasts came a week or so later, but they were looking very very dark. The business logo, which was light gray on black were no where to be seen, the two images on the other side look like an chimney (well, at least the highlights weren't blown :-) )

Obviously not what was expected.

Ok, so I call up the lovely and very helpful lady and owner of the printing franchise, who is a designer by trade, this I learned later. She agreed to do a re-print, which is fine and great for the client. I asked her, if she had any icc profiles for their press, which she declined, so I asked again and asked if she knew what the blackest black the printer was able to print and what the white point was. She told me she would have to get back to me, but said she had this swatch book, which the printer was capable of printing. Cool, they were all CMYK and this job was a mono/BW job, so it didn't contain any detail or information relating to the job.

She called back later and told me that the printer had just told her that the blackest black was 80% black and white point was within 2%...great!! I thought.

Ok, given this information - how should I prepare my images or graphics to have this printed so that I retain details in my images and that the black text and graphics look black, and everything within...grays stays gray and white, stays white?

Ok, correct me if I am wrong, cos I don't send a lot of stuff out, usually we print in house but they are images, and are RGB based.

So i loaded up my image (RGB) and converted it to gray scale, I checked the black point or what I wanted to appear the darkest black on the image using threshold and placed my eye-dropper there and did the same with my white point, so I had the two points in my info pallet. Then I added a Level's adjustment layer and moved my output slider so that my blackest back was equal to 80% and my white point 2%.

Ok, flat looking file on screen, but in my mind all that had happened was that I had defined the constrains. - file is not printed - job has been canceled, due to time constraints.

but would that file have printed within spec's ? If not what should I have done different.

My second scenario, preparing images for CMYK printing, through a publisher. Almost all parties are distant to each other, geographically. Printer in Hong Kong, Publisher on the other side of the country.

Proposed work flow is to have another local company to a press check using the overseas printers profile -  No profile is supplied to me, but I am told that the TIL is 280, and I think the publisher recommended to use Coated FOGRA39 as the intended color space for the printing.

How would I best prepare my files so that I have good color, images popping off the pages in all their glory :-) ?

My experience says to work the files in aRGB, as my working space but to use the Coated FOGRA39 as my soft proofing space, and check for out of gamut colors...

How can I best ensure basically the same as above, that my blacks don't block up and the whites don't blow out? When I print normally on my HPZ3100 and my trusty Epson, I print a gray scale step wedge and check it to see when I see details and when I don't and that becomes my constrains. This works very well, but I am doing this because I have my screen calibrated to a standard, my printer is calibrated and profiled to a standard, and I have made a few test prints to confirm it. Here I am not so lucky, as I can't test my theory.

I will start another thread on monitor to print calibration shortly.

I appreciate everyone comments, as I am sure there are many beside myself who would find this information useful and I would like to thank in advance to those who so generously share their knowledge here.

thanks

Henrik
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tived

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2009, 10:08:58 am »

maybe I should have broken this up into two threads! sorry but please do give it a crack!

thanks

Henrik
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Czornyj

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2009, 04:18:53 pm »

OMG, OMG...

1) What grayscale curve did you use while conversion?

2) If you were told, that TIL should be 280, then it has nothing to do with Coated FOGRA39 profile, that's created with TIL 330... There's also ISO_Coated_v2_300 profile, that was created with FOGRA 39 characterization data set with TIL set to 300, but it's still not 280... I afraid they don't really know what they're doing...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 04:20:04 pm by Czornyj »
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tived

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2009, 10:14:07 pm »

Quote from: Czornyj
OMG, OMG...

1) What grayscale curve did you use while conversion?

2) If you were told, that TIL should be 280, then it has nothing to do with Coated FOGRA39 profile, that's created with TIL 330... There's also ISO_Coated_v2_300 profile, that was created with FOGRA 39 characterization data set with TIL set to 300, but it's still not 280... I afraid they don't really know what they're doing...

Thanks for replying

I may have made a booboo here, I just noticed that I changed the mode to Gray scale and the profile is dot gain 20%.

Why are printers so worried about giving out ICC profiles? I know it isn't the whole answer to just send someone a ICC profile, but it is at least a step in the right direction.

Henrik
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tived

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2009, 09:53:43 pm »

Guys,

I just need a little bit of help to see if I am in the right direction or completely lost :-)

thanks

Henrik
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Czornyj

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 08:34:07 am »

Quote from: tived
Thanks for replying

I may have made a booboo here, I just noticed that I changed the mode to Gray scale and the profile is dot gain 20%.

Why are printers so worried about giving out ICC profiles? I know it isn't the whole answer to just send someone a ICC profile, but it is at least a step in the right direction.

Henrik
Well, just let's hope they work on european printing standars... Last stupid question - I belive it was printed on coated paper, and the screening was periodic?
1) Download the latest ECI profiles (ECI_offset_2008) for standard offset print:
http://www.eci.org/doku.php?id=en:downloads
Copy the profiles to system folder (in Windows: C:\WINDOWS\system32\spool\drivers\color)
2) Enter Photoshop Color Settings:
- select "ISO Coated v2 300% (ECI)" color space for CMYK:
- select "Load Gray..." for Gray and then choose ISOcoated_v2_300_eci.icc profile
- select "Perceptual" Intent

3) Open all the color images and convert them to Working CMYK space, then open all grayscale images and convert them to Workig Grayscale space
4) Make a FOGRA certified contract proof and send one to the printer
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 09:01:31 am by Czornyj »
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tived

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 10:00:16 am »

Hi Czornyj,

thanks for chipping in here.

I am in Australia and the printing will be done in Hong Kong, I don't know by whom yet. but I hope to find out tomorrow, monday.

I have searched the net all day, to see if I could find a good workable solution to this, as I would like the images to pop on the pages, images are not mine but a fellow photographer who I very much look up to and would not like to disappoint, I would not like to disappoint myself :-) either.

I had a good read through an article that Jeff Scheewe wrote a little while ago, which goes through the process step by step.

I guess, I am a bit confused because I have been told two different things so far by the publisher US web Coated SWOP v2 and in an PDF from the printer who I still don;t know there is a mention of ISO Coated v2 39L.

They may use a local printer, to do a contact proof, but I don't know I would like to run one because I want to see the densities of this and if any color shifts

Speaking of densities, I have been informed that TIL is 280 and it will be Woodfree IKPP 140gsm paper through the book and glossy art paper 128gsm for the cover which I think is also laminated but don't quote me on this ;-)
Densities, will the 280 give me or limit me the density range? without having a test strip or proof print, how can i with the limited information set my outout density constraints?

Henrik
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Czornyj

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Sending work out to be printed CMYK and Monochrome
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 10:39:38 am »

Quote from: tived
Hi Czornyj,

thanks for chipping in here.

I am in Australia and the printing will be done in Hong Kong, I don't know by whom yet. but I hope to find out tomorrow, monday.

I have searched the net all day, to see if I could find a good workable solution to this, as I would like the images to pop on the pages, images are not mine but a fellow photographer who I very much look up to and would not like to disappoint, I would not like to disappoint myself :-) either.

I had a good read through an article that Jeff Scheewe wrote a little while ago, which goes through the process step by step.

I guess, I am a bit confused because I have been told two different things so far by the publisher US web Coated SWOP v2 and in an PDF from the printer who I still don;t know there is a mention of ISO Coated v2 39L.

They may use a local printer, to do a contact proof, but I don't know I would like to run one because I want to see the densities of this and if any color shifts

Speaking of densities, I have been informed that TIL is 280 and it will be Woodfree IKPP 140gsm paper through the book and glossy art paper 128gsm for the cover which I think is also laminated but don't quote me on this ;-)
Densities, will the 280 give me or limit me the density range? without having a test strip or proof print, how can i with the limited information set my outout density constraints?

Henrik

I belive Jeff Schewe's workflow is - without any doubt - flawless, but I suspect it's for american printing standards.

The most important questions are:
- what is the standard the printer's working on
- what paper type will be used
- what printing technique will be used

If there's a PDF from the printer, I think there may be an answer to some of these questions, so I'd insist on having access to it.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 10:59:14 am by Czornyj »
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