Mamiya-Phase ZD with P40+ sensor = Leica S2 killer?

[narikin]

And then there are the Leica lenses vs Mamiya lenses. Mamiya lenses are fine but I am convinced most people here will expect the Leica lenses to perform even a little better.

And I dont think that the sensor itself is the important factor. So IMO - ZD with 40MP sensor and better high ISO sounds nice but I think its not a S2 killer and there would be a market for both.

respectfully disagree.

Mamiya lenses are excellent. I know this is heresy, but not ALL Leica lenses are great. some are just average, and the idea that only Leica make truly great lenses, and nobody else does, is obviously silly.

As for the second part, well, in this day and age, the sensor is a huge part of the deal, I mean really huge. Leica have very little history of successful pro level sensor integration. Phase do. I think Phase would walk all over them in that regard.  

I don't mean to sound like I'm celebrating that distinction, as I'd like the S2 to succeed,  being all in favor of more choice in the market place, but I think Phase could come through with something exceptional an different in this regard, if they choose to. Otherwise, its just going to be  a steady diet of clone Mamiya/Phase 645AF's with incremental upgrades for the next five years. yawn.

[paratom]

respectfully disagree.

Mamiya lenses are excellent. I know this is heresy, but not ALL Leica lenses are great. some are just average, and the idea that only Leica make truly great lenses, and nobody else does, is obviously silly.

As for the second part, well, in this day and age, the sensor is a huge part of the deal, I mean really huge. Leica have very little history of successful pro level sensor integration. Phase do. I think Phase would walk all over them in that regard.  

I don't mean to sound like I'm celebrating that distinction, as I'd like the S2 to succeed,  being all in favor of more choice in the market place, but I think Phase could come through with something exceptional an different in this regard, if they choose to. Otherwise, its just going to be  a steady diet of clone Mamiya/Phase 645AF's with incremental upgrades for the next five years. yawn.

I didnt say all Leica lenses are great. I didnt say Mamiya lenses are bad.

But yes I believe that overall Leica lenses are better than those from competitors in 35mm world, and I expect the same in MF.
And yes, I also prefer the look I get with certain Rollei lenses (for example the Zeiss 110 or the Xenotar 80mm or the 50 AFD) over that from certain Mamiya lenses.
And I also prefer the build quality. (I dont prefer the weight and size and price;)  )

[Leonardo Barreto]

Interesting that the Leica S2 is already being listed ta B&H with Price :TBA

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/5851...tal_Camera.html

[Leonardo Barreto]

It is interesting to compare the bonanza of controls that the Nikon camera offers as opposed to the minimalistic approach of the Leica...

[Carsten W]

It is interesting to compare the bonanza of controls that the Nikon camera offers as opposed to the minimalistic approach of the Leica...

There will be one more button on the back of the S2, the AF-L button, but yes, a very different approach.

[Leonardo Barreto]

I have a Nikon and a PhaseOne, and the S2 looks very similar to the latter with the 4 buttons. I managed to navigate ok with them and they are even not relevant if you shoot tethered (RAW) since you get a lot of control with Capture 1. But shooting on the field, you will welcome all the controls of the Nikon, --or wish you had them on the Leica--.

The Nikon approach to design seams to be form follows function, and they assume that you are a photographer on the extremes of the envelop of your field. This is a performance machine made to save you the last second in a high stress situation when you have a million things to take care of, like the mood of the model, bad art director ideas etc. You don't want to be surfing the mini web page in the LCD of your camera, do you?

 

There will be one more button on the back of the S2, the AF-L button, but yes, a very different approach.

[Carsten W]

I have a Nikon and a PhaseOne, and the S2 looks very similar to the latter with the 4 buttons. I managed to navigate ok with them and they are even not relevant if you shoot tethered (RAW) since you get a lot of control with Capture 1. But shooting on the field, you will welcome all the controls of the Nikon, --or wish you had them on the Leica--.

The Nikon approach to design seams to be form follows function, and they assume that you are a photographer on the extremes of the envelop of your field. This is a performance machine made to save you the last second in a high stress situation when you have a million things to take care of, like the mood of the model, bad art director ideas etc. You don't want to be surfing the mini web page in the LCD of your camera, do you?

Are you presenting this as fact, or is it merely your opinion?

I disagree. I had a 5D, but sold it for the simplicity of the M6 and M8. My Contax 645 and Hasselblad 500C and 2000FC/M are also truly simple to operate, and I have never gotten stuck with anything I wanted to do because I was missing 20 extra buttons or 30 layers of menus or live view or any other feature from the latest nuclear powered Canikon. The S2 is a breath of fresh air. How many features do you want to operate in the middle of a shoot?

[Leonardo Barreto]

Of course it is an opinion, -- the fact IS that the S2 has almost no controls available--, it is up to you to decide if you need them or not, and that may depend on the work you are doing at the time. I just got a 500 cm and 50mm Distagon to use with film -and a lightmeter because I want to go unplugged sometimes for contemplative shooting.  

I understand that you may want to sell your 5D to get away from manual controls, but will most photographers want to have less controls? don't know, it may be that they do, and in that case Leica would have won the bet. This is similar to AF, we can always shoot with MF, but it would be suicide to come up with a MF only system now, even if the same argument regarding the simplicity of your 500c and 2000FC/M would be used. the nuclear powerd Canikon are what photographers want, expect and get, they have AF and all the mechanical controls available, and available means that you are not forced to use them, but if you want they are there at you fingertip, not buried inside a menu that you have to navigate with four yes or no buttons.    

Are you presenting this as fact, or is it merely your opinion?

I disagree. I had a 5D, but sold it for the simplicity of the M6 and M8. My Contax 645 and Hasselblad 500C and 2000FC/M are also truly simple to operate, and I have never gotten stuck with anything I wanted to do because I was missing 20 extra buttons or 30 layers of menus or live view or any other feature from the latest nuclear powered Canikon. The S2 is a breath of fresh air. How many features do you want to operate in the middle of a shoot?

[Carsten W]

Of course it is an opinion, -- the fact IS that the S2 has almost no controls available--, it is up to you to decide if you need them or not, and that may depend on the work you are doing at the time. I just got a 500 cm and 50mm Distagon to use with film -and a lightmeter because I want to go unplugged sometimes for contemplative shooting.  

I understand that you may want to sell your 5D to get away from manual controls, but will most photographers want to have less controls? don't know, it may be that they do, and in that case Leica would have won the bet. This is similar to AF, we can always shoot with MF, but it would be suicide to come up with a MF only system now, even if the same argument regarding the simplicity of your 500c and 2000FC/M would be used. the nuclear powerd Canikon are what photographers want, expect and get, they have AF and all the mechanical controls available, and available means that you are not forced to use them, but if you want they are there at you fingertip, not buried inside a menu that you have to navigate with four yes or no buttons.

I am sure that some people like all the buttons. I even think that somewhere, someone might use them all in the middle of a shoot, instead of setting the camera and lights up beforehand, and just shoot, tweaking here or there.

I personally prefer simple cameras, or let's be real, complex cameras which give you a simple interface. It is just a personal preference. When I am shooting, I just use the basics. Everything is set up in advance. Leica gets that.

[Leonardo Barreto]

Check focus. You cannot check focus beforehand since you need to shoot something to check if it is focused. Have you tried to do that on a PhaseOne? --tethered is perfectly ok, you shoot from the portable, check focus shoot, shoot, fantastic-- you have to navigate using the 4 buttons until you see the zoom icon, after that you zoom in, then to move around you have to tell change from moving laterally or vertically, in other words, it takes about the same time as to check a POLAROID. With my Nikon it is all done with designated mechanical buttons and 4 directional "joystick" I love and respect my Phaseone, and I do get your point but I think that they may be making a mistake with their approach.

They seam to be also coming out with an LCD about as generous as that of the Phase backs, and if you follow the discussions here, users are screaming for larger LCD.

 

I am sure that some people like all the buttons. I even think that somewhere, someone might use them all in the middle of a shoot, instead of setting the camera and lights up beforehand, and just shoot, tweaking here or there.

I personally prefer simple cameras, or let's be real, complex cameras which give you a simple interface. It is just a personal preference. When I am shooting, I just use the basics. Everything is set up in advance. Leica gets that.

[Carsten W]

Check focus. You cannot check focus beforehand since you need to shoot something to check if it is focused. Have you tried to do that on a PhaseOne? --tethered is perfectly ok, you shoot from the portable, check focus shoot, shoot, fantastic-- you have to navigate using the 4 buttons until you see the zoom icon, after that you zoom in, then to move around you have to tell change from moving laterally or vertically, in other words, it takes about the same time as to check a POLAROID. With my Nikon it is all done with designated mechanical buttons and 4 directional "joystick" I love and respect my Phaseone, and I do get your point but I think that they may be making a mistake with their approach.

They seam to be also coming out with an LCD about as generous as that of the Phase backs, and if you follow the discussions here, users are screaming for larger LCD.

The S2 isn't out yet, but the four buttons are programmable for user functions if you hold them for a second. You could map the image display function to one button, if it isn't already mapped, and then you've got the scroll wheel. I presume in the image mode the four buttons navigate.

The screen on the S2 is 3", 320x480 (higher res than everything except the latest Canikons), and bright. Read David Farkas' blog for more details.

[vgogolak]

".....do Mamiya still produce those awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with over-exposed high-speed ecktachrome? ...."

"....And then there are the Leica lenses vs Mamiya lenses. Mamiya lenses are fine but I am convinced most people here will expect the Leica lenses to perform even a little better......"

In several forums, any comment, especilly strongly critical, on Mamyia lenses leave to severe counter attack. I am sorry, but if you read reviews, watch comments, you will find
1. Hardly any complaints of zeiss and leica lenses
2. Many negative comments, even on Hasselblad (including MR's 'exploding' zoom :-)
3. Extreme sensitivity by certaim Mamyia owners to ANY criticism

Why is this? At 67 , I continue to marvel at a dictum I have said and believed for years"...be approximately right, not precisely wrong.."

Mamyia seems to be improving, and some lens shats can be great. But the 28mm was severely criticized here, and leaf shutters are still vapor.

In the meantime, Zeiss (incl the Japanes built Zeiss designed Contax, that socalled DEAD system) in all forms and Leica garner kudos.

In general, it seems pretty obvious Zeiss and Leica lenses are in a top class shared I guess by Hasselblad-J (with a few excuses for some early missteps)

There are other criteria, like availability, 'openness' etc that come into all our decisions; oh, and of course, PRICE>

SO, for those who fight the preponderance of evidence, and also get good images from Mamyia, or Nikon or Canan, I see no reason for those of us to battle. For those of us who favour Zeiss and Leica design and execution, well, for all the foot stomping (and yes, psychological pressure that forum owners use Mamyia in one of its guises) we should proably stop even mentioning any comparison with M, as I did on another forum (after a comment was taken WAAAAY too personnally by a M owner) , saying what the rest of the photographic world and market and price point have said for years. The Zeiss and Leicas, are, not always, but in general better image makers, and as with Mercedes or BMW etc the bulk of the world will choose not to pay for them.

Mamyia, Canon and Nikon make compromises that allow more accessibility. Zeiss and Leica products are EXPENSIVE, and may not be prudent purchases for many. Except for the independently wealthy, we all make choices. We don't eat out, or rent a lot of movies and a lot of other daily expenses; at the end of the year we have enough for a european vacation (business class seats, 4 seasons hotels, at discount  :-) and buy one or two lenses.

Companies make trade offs, people make trade offs. That is not going to make a Mercedes quality avaible at a Chevy price, no matter what you say.

But, like Voightlander (that I use on my M8 with great satisfaction) that is both cheap and really good, if Mamyia can do both, I will be the first in line to buy-- but, sorry, for me they ain;t there yet.

regards
Victor

[Dick Roadnight]

".....do Mamiya still produce those awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with over-exposed high-speed ecktachrome? ...."
Victor

Hi, Victor - It is nice that someone shares my point of view (I am 60 this week).

There was a time when quality lenses were made only by Zeiss, Leica, Schneider and Rodenstock: Nikon and Canon became acceptable cost-effective alternatives for photo-journalists (I bought a Nikon system to use with Nikon (and Novoflex) lenses.

Apart from my 2 wartime aerial photography lenses (and I believe my new Hasselblad zoom) all my lenses are European.

My cameras too, (apart from the Nikon I do not use) are European: Hasselblad, Sinar, Leica (D-LUX 3, with a Panasonic back-end) are European, and my next system will hopefully be Seitz.

I have a set of European Schneider Apo-digitars to use with my Sinar P3 and my Hasselblad DCU=digiback.

[Dan Wells]

When you look at the intimidating back of the D3x (I use one every day, and love it) in a picture, you don't see how many of those controls you don't use while shooting. All the buttons on the far side of the body are really menu controls (with second functions in image review) - nothing you'd use with the camera at your eye. The bank of buttons along the bottom are "keep you OUT of the menu controls" - one press shortcuts to ISO, white balance and image quality - you can either ignore them while shooting (no finger goes anywhere near them), ignore them altogether (the same functions are available in the menu, just like the Leica - the buttons are an extra option), or use if you want quicker access to their functions. One button and one dial are just vertical grip duplicates - add a grip (which will probably exist) to the Leica, and you'll get those as well. The multidirection pad and the lever below it control the 51-point steerable AF - would anyone really prefer single-point AF? Judging by the number of MF users who complain about 1990s AF, Nikon has this one right (in practice, it's the best AF I've used). The remaining buttons are AE and AF lock (how does Leica handle that)? and ONE extra button - the microphone button. I've never actually hit it while shooting, but the microphone button IS clearly gratuitous and placed where it might get in the way (in fact, it's nicely tucked away and not easy to hit accidentally).

From a user standpoint, here are the controls that are actually under a D3x user's right hand and accessible with the camera at the eye.

Top of camera:
Shutter button (I'd love to see Leica try to get away without THIS one)

Two dials (shutter speed and aperture, or either one plus exposure comp.) - Leica has them too (one is the shutter knob), clearly necessary. How do you use exposure compensation in aperture priority in Leica's design? Does the shutter knob become a mismarked compensation dial?

Exposure compensation button - you could just use the second dial alone for exposure compensation (and this is, in fact, a D3x menu option), but Nikon felt it important to have a button to avoid unwittingly dialing in -2 stops. I like the button, and have mine on.

Mode button (on top of camera, but a long stretch to reach while shooting) - Possibly extra, most photographers (especially the D3x/S2 target group of more contemplative photographers) have a preferred mode they use 95% of the time. This COULD have been in the menu, but doesn't really get in the way.

Front of camera:
Depth of field preview (been in exactly the same place since the Nikon F) - Leica has it too

Function button (possibly extra, but useful - mine activates a built in level to keep the horizon straight). One of the most reasonable places to argue whether Nikon or Leica has it right.

Back of camera:
AE and AF lock/AF on buttons (menu assignable). I rarely use mine (the meter is so good that AE lock is generally unnecessary, and I choose my AF point carefully instead of using AF lock). Ironically, Leica's comparatively primitive AF means that these  buttons would be much more useful on the S2 (which doesn't have them).

AF area selector - would you REALLY prefer single-point AF to get rid of this?

AF mode switch (out of the way) - like the mode button, it could have been in the menu (most D3x shooters probably have a preferred mode), but it's not easy to hit by accident.

Microphone button - CLEARLY extra, gratuitous, unnecessary and superfluous - thankfully almost impossible to hit while shooting.


The D3x has one clearly unnecessary control (the microphone), plus two questionable calls (mode and AF mode), all of which are D3 carryovers, and probably much more useful to photojournalists than to photographers who'd also consider an S2. None of them is easy to hit by mistake. Everything else is well-placed and useful.

From pictures, the S2 appears to be missing several important controls. The most important is the AF area selector - single point AF is a huge step backwards from any current DSLR (and something I hope the MF makers are working on fixing). Without using the camera, the functioning of exposure compensation is a mystery to me - it's easy to see how it works in shutter priority, but doesn't make sense in aperture priority. The AF on/AF lock seems to be an important omission in a camera with single-point AF (the more points and wider AF area you have, the less important it becomes).

                                                    -Dan

[Leonardo Barreto]

The Leica S2 has a 30 x 45 mm sensor, not full MF, so it is inevitable that people will compare it to 35mm cameras, they on the other hand are providing a system with the minimum of controls as if this was a 645....

[dfarkas]

The AF on/AF lock seems to be an important omission in a camera with single-point AF (the more points and wider AF area you have, the less important it becomes).

                                                    -Dan

Dan,

The prototypes that have been shown do not have the AF on/AF lock button, but based on user feedback like yours over the past months, Leica is adding it on the back of the camera as a thumb button. So, when the camera ships, it will be there.

The buttons surrounding the LCD can be programmed. I believe in default configuration, the upper right is EV comp. So, if you were shooting you could press the button with your thumb (easy reach) to activate, then turn the control dial to set in an EV comp, similar to how the Nikon works. ISO can be programmed to the bottom right button, WB to bottom left, etc. In shooting mode, the four buttons serve the same purpose as the lower function buttons of the D3x, except they are customized based on user preference. In menu and playback modes, the buttons change to pre-set functions which are displayed on screen.

Also, unlike the Nikon, the control thumb wheel on the S2 is also a button. You turn it then click it in to select an option, or to change shooting modes. This wheel, combined with a shutter speed dial allowed them to get rid of a mode button on top and a front control dial.

We will have to see how the final firmware on the S2 shapes up, but a lot of thought has gone into making features easily accessible, intuitive, and simple. The latest version that I used at PMA back in March was far better than version I first used at Photokina in September.

I have taught classes on the D300/D700/D3/D3x where I go through every single menu option (camera connected HDMI to projector). The class takes 3 hours! There is a reason the instruction manual is over 400 pages long. Leica's approach and philosophy is different.  I'm certainly not saying that the D3x or D3 or D700 are badly designed cameras. In fact, I really enjoy using them and actually know what every single custom function does. I've been a long time Nikon shooter (when digital was just science fiction) and have taught many people how to use them. That being said, for the last year or two, I've shot almost exclusively with my Leica M8/M8.2. I just prefer the elegant simplicity. The S2 promises to offer me that same feel in a MF digital system.

David

[vgogolak]

When you look at the intimidating back of the D3x (I use one every day, and love it) in a picture, ................

From pictures, the S2 appears to be missing several important controls. The most important is the AF area selector - single point AF is a huge step backwards from any current DSLR (and something I hope the MF makers are working on fixing). Without using the camera, the functioning of exposure compensation is a mystery to me - it's easy to see how it works in shutter priority, but doesn't make sense in aperture priority. The AF on/AF lock seems to be an important omission in a camera with single-point AF (the more points and wider AF area you have, the less important it becomes).

                                                    -Dan

Though I orefer the Leica logic (maybe comes from living a lot in europe, esp germant) it does takr a bit more conceptual agreement. The experience and the application to progr
mmed buttons seems the bigest discriminant- for the better.

I use the Phase back that is minimalist and have found Nikons (even old Fs and FG) mistake prone (moi, that is :-)

But again, like riting a paper ("if I had more time I would make it shorter") Conikon have far more pressure on the new feature. Leica wants a lasting design. Just read the comment in the Leica journal - these guys AGONIZED over the design philosophy, I doubat Conikon have time

Victor

[Leonardo Barreto]

Remember Microsoft DOS? when you used to navigate with out a mouse? was that elegant minimalistic design?

Though I orefer the Leica logic (maybe comes from living a lot in europe, esp germant) it does takr a bit more conceptual agreement. The experience and the application to progr
mmed buttons seems the bigest discriminant- for the better.

I use the Phase back that is minimalist and have found Nikons (even old Fs and FG) mistake prone (moi, that is :-)

But again, like riting a paper ("if I had more time I would make it shorter") Conikon have far more pressure on the new feature. Leica wants a lasting design. Just read the comment in the Leica journal - these guys AGONIZED over the design philosophy, I doubat Conikon have time

Victor

[Doug Peterson]

Remember Microsoft DOS? when you used to navigate with out a mouse? was that elegant minimalistic design?

I'm not even sure this is relevant, but what's interesting about your question is that at the very high end of computer usage the use of terminal/unix command lines is quite high. There are many operations which you can achieve much much faster by command line than through a pretty GUI. Again, maybe not even relevant, but I find it interesting.

The huge advantage of the four-button operation to me on either the Phase or Leica is that it's just as easy to use with gloves on.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Guy Mancuso]

I do like the 4 buttons myself but what I like better is that you can lock them up too so you don't screw anything up when in battle.