Mamiya-Phase ZD with P40+ sensor = Leica S2 killer?

[narikin]

Lots of hot air on this site about the P40+ sensor. my turn to add some!    

has anyone thought what might happen if they drop that P40+ sensor into a ZD mk2 and release that?
Phase are now controlling Mamiya's technical development, and a 2009 latest gen sensor in the ZD body would be fantastic, especially at the price point they are indicating.

40Mp, ZD handling + portability, Mamiya full lens range, latest 2009 Dalsa sensor dynamic range, Capture One workflow... it would severely affect the S2's prospects, AND pull some people up and away from  dSLR high end bodies, if they can keep it in the $15-18k area.

[michael]

I asked the CEO about this in an interview with him a couple of months ago and he indicated that further development of the ZD body was not out of the question, but was not at the moment a high priority for them.

Too bad, as I agree that a ZD body with Phase imaging technology could have a strong position if priced properly.

Michael

[Guy Mancuso]

Just a new body would do wonders as well for there backs. My first choice would be get a new fast body out the door. If I had a choice

But a integrated ZD would be a nice option as well for some folks. The P40+ maybe a good choice of sensor for it

[Graham Mitchell]

ok, I'll play devil's advocate.
The Leica lenses should be extremely good, with leaf shutter lenses available from the start. The body will have a real battery, better build quality, and probably much less shutter lag than the Mamiya and better weather proofing. The resolution difference is meaningless. Time will tell how the S2 performs at higher ISOs. I have a feeling that the S2 will be a very good system overall - the main issue will be attracting people to switch from existing systems to a brand new system with no used parts available. (This is the same argument I have against Canon or Nikon entering the MF market). At least Leica has a certain following - I hope that following alone is enough to sustain the platform. Of course the number one factor to compare will be price, which is anyone's guess right now.

[Snook]

Graham, do not forget the Price difference as well.
Mmaiya Phase combo could always eat the leica right out of the market.

Snook

[Leonardo Barreto]

The real S2/AFD killer is the PENTAX 645 ...


... sorry couldn't resist and may have too much free time today, (workers day here)

I think that a problem with the ZD / P40 flavor would be the crop factor with all existing Mamiya mount lenses. Here the Leica has one more advantage since they are coming with dedicated optic to a smaller size sensor, a sensor that is bigger than Nikon/Canon. Sensor size seams to determine sensor price, more than total sensels/megapixels. If this is true they could price competitively with larger formats like the AFi when they go full frame at 6x6 or the PhaseOne backs.

A ZD would have to be full or near full frame to be able to use the wider segment of the lens mount offerings. Coming with a crop factor would be the same mistake that Hy6/AFi arguably did...

[Dick Roadnight]

Graham, do not forget the Price difference as well.
Mmaiya Phase combo could always eat the leica right out of the market.

Snook

Knowing the reputation of Leica and Mamiya, I find it difficult to imagine that anything with Mamiya written on it could ever come close - do Mamiya still produce those awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with over-exposed high-speed ecktachrome? (I had a C330, and it would produce decent colour with Agfa CT18, with a 1.5 Deca-mired red filter on dull days.)

Perhaps, when they get it sorted, they will put their own name on it: or will they market it under both brand names?

... but people rarely throw everything away and start a complete new system... My P3/H3D11 system is compatible with many thousands of pounds worth of Sinar and Hasselblad equipment I already had.

[narikin]

Knowing the reputation of Leica and Mamiya, I find it difficult to imagine that anything with Mamiya written on it could ever come close - do Mamiya still produce those awful yellow lenses that make everything look as if it was taken with over-exposed high-speed ecktachrome?

oh please,  lets keep things sensible -  do you really think Michael here on this site is using "awful yellow lenses" for his P65+ images and not noticing?

Mamiya make great lenses, as do Leica. BUT...  building a great MF digital system is about a lot more than lenses, and I'd say Phase are world leaders at MF digital tech.

[Leonardo Barreto]

Interesting how conspiracies are born. This is like Egypt slaughtering their entire pig population just for not wanting to see the evidence.  

oh please,  lets keep things sensible -  do you really think Michael here on this site is using "awful yellow lenses" for his P65+ images and not noticing?

Mamiya make great lenses, as do Leica. BUT...  building a great MF digital system is about a lot more than lenses, and I'd say Phase are world leaders at MF digital tech.

[BernardLanguillier]

has anyone thought what might happen if they drop that P40+ sensor into a ZD mk2 and release that?
Phase are now controlling Mamiya's technical development, and a 2009 latest gen sensor in the ZD body would be fantastic, especially at the price point they are indicating.

40Mp, ZD handling + portability, Mamiya full lens range, latest 2009 Dalsa sensor dynamic range, Capture One workflow... it would severely affect the S2's prospects, AND pull some people up and away from  dSLR high end bodies, if they can keep it in the $15-18k area.

Would be nice on paper... now based on the many small issues I had with the Mamiya system, I am not convinced that the actual product would be robust enough to be able to shoot with confidence in a variety of conditions met in landscape work whatever the temperature, using long lenses,...

Studio work? Then yes. Critical once in a life time opportunities in the wilderness? Not for me and I would not recommend it to friends.

Cheers,
Bernard

[narikin]

personally I think if they are going to make a ZD2 with Phase sensor/tech in it, they should offer two models - both the P40+ at the mid-level end, and a version with the P65+ at the high end, for those who want ultimate quality and portability.

Can't imagine there's any meaningful engineering difference in offering an alternative sensor option, so when the works done, very little effort to make two versions... but a lot of extra profit to be had when people choose the higher end item. Plus the Leica S2 will look poorer for it, and less likely to steal away would be Phase customers.

[Snook]

Where are those new Lens that they have been promising for the last 2 years!!!!
Jeeeezz

Atleast one leaf shutter lens would be a great sign.

Snook

[mcfoto]

I have talked to the Phase/Mamiya agents here about the ZD camera & there are no plans. What would be nice is the new Dalsa 48mp sensor (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/News/News.aspx?itemID=167) which is the same physical size as the Dalsa 22mp sensor. Put a 3-4'' screen on the back with a 1.0 sec capture rate including sensor plus. The price would have to be in the 8000.00-14,000 USD range for body only. Also add HD video.
Denis

[Graham Mitchell]

What would be nice is the new Dalsa 48mp sensor (http://www.dalsa.com/sensors/News/News.aspx?itemID=167) which is the same physical size as the Dalsa 22mp sensor. Put a 3-4'' screen on the back with a 1.0 sec capture rate including sensor plus.

Sounds like a very nice sensor but still only 48x36mm

[narikin]

Sounds like a very nice sensor but still only 48x36mm

and the Leica S2 at 30x45mm is

[Graham Mitchell]

and the Leica S2 at 30x45mm is

Also too small to be in my future. I am thinking about new sensors for digital backs, and dreaming of a 645 size sensor that is nowhere near 60 MP

[Doug Peterson]

Also too small to be in my future. I am thinking about new sensors for digital backs, and dreaming of a 645 size sensor that is nowhere near 60 MP

P65+ in Sensor+ mode is 15 mp . In that mode it's fast and has great high ISO.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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[Graham Mitchell]

P65+ in Sensor+ mode is 15 mp . In that mode it's fast and has great high ISO.

Ok, but I'm dreaming of a sensor which is 30 to 40 MP in 645 size (in other words around 8 micron pixels). But I digress...

[Guy Mancuso]

I would like that too Graham. A full frame 8 micron or 7.5

[paratom]

the ZD is a good camera IMO however the S2 feels much more solid and faster, with a much better display, made of metal/cast not plastic.

And then there are the Leica lenses vs Mamiya lenses. Mamiya lenses are fine but I am convinced most people here will expect the Leica lenses to perform even a little better.

3rd the S2 will offer both leaf and focal plane shutter. I think phase announced some leaf shutter lenses but I guess Leica will offer a wider range.

In the end I believe the S2 idea is based on the ZD idea: a slr-like medium format camera.
However the S2 will probably be on a higher quality and technology level.

And I dont think that the sensor itself is the important factor. So IMO - ZD with 40MP sensor and better high ISO sounds nice but I think its not a S2 killer and there would be a market for both.