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Author Topic: Dynamic Range with Digitals...  (Read 5735 times)

BJL

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Dynamic Range with Digitals...
« on: September 24, 2003, 01:35:26 pm »

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... Just where does one draw the line between visible detail in both highlights and shadows and an acceptable and meaningful amount of detail in both highlights and shadows?

I've also noticed when DR is described in terms of decibels on spec sheets, it seems to be a lot higher than the generally accepted F stop range (6dB being equivalent to one stop - so I believe).
Yes, 6bD = 1 f-stop (because they measure in audio-inspired power levels instead of using voltages, which are proportional to luminance!). The overstatement you have noticed with those spec sheet measurements of "linear dynamic range" is largely because they measure the whole range from maximum white down to noise level, so at the bottom of that range, signal level equals noise level, and that can probably only be printed as either pure black or "mud".

So you get into the subjective question of how high the S/N ratio must be in a shadow region for it to be used to show details, or at least texture. Ray, didn't you find somewhere Kodak guidelines on imag quality in relation to S/N ratios, like 10:1 for acceptable, 40:1 for excellent? If so, please let us know where, I would love to read more!

Trusting those numbers for a minute suggests very roughly that about three to five f-stops at the bottom of the linear dynamic range are useless for the goal of recording shadows that can be brought up in level on a print (e.g. by "dodging") to show something interesting without just looking muddy.

Other glitches can come up too that all work to reduce effective dynamic range a bit: those spec sheet values are based on noise at an unilluminated pixel in a short exposure, and so ignore dark current and shot noise. Thus they are not the whole story for long exposures, and underestimate the noise level at pixels that receive a fair amount of light. Then there is the complicated debate about what sorts of noise can or cannot be corrected for in software ("fixed pattern noise" can maybe subtracted off, etc.)
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BJL

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Dynamic Range with Digitals...
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2003, 04:38:44 pm »

Joe, I was judging from the image of the camera's histogram, divided into five vertical segments. But now Don Lasher tells me (thanks!) that the end segments are "bigger" and so it might cover more like a 6 stop range. Still that is clearly not the whole 12 stop range that is in principle output by its 12 bit linear A/D, so Canon has decided on some basis that the top six stops or so are the main area of interest.

In zone system terms this could mean that the middle segment is "zone 5" (middle gray) and the outermost bars are "zone 7 and a bit of zone 8" and "zone 3 and a bit of zone 2"; pretty much the range where traditional thinking says that the details should be in a normal exposure.

A new question: has anyone taken a photo with the 1Ds or such that hits the left wall of the histogram and then examined the shadows? Is there anything recoverable from beyond the left edge of the in-camera histogram?


P. S. reading that other discusion more fully, it could be that the brief note of agreement of Chuck Westfall (Director/Technical Information Dept. Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc.) was confirming the gist of Don's description but not necessarily all the details like "1.5 stops". So a test as proposed in that thread would be nice from a "zone system film testing" point of view. Basically, take a sequence of photos of a gray card at various degrees of over- and under-exposure, and see where the spikes fall on the histogram.
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Joe Hardesty

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« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2003, 12:59:42 pm »

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...Incidentally, how do I convert this rather long URL into a single word like here?
Ray, just hit the http:// button at the top of the text field where you type your reply.
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2003, 02:12:59 pm »

How is it measured?
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Ray

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« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2003, 09:59:29 am »

There's probably a bit of a problem here, describing dynamic range in terms of F stops - a bit like describing lens resolution in terms of line pairs per mm. Just where does one draw the line between visible detail in both highlights and shadows and an acceptable and meaningful amount of detail in both highlights and shadows?

I've also noticed when DR is described in terms of decibels on spec sheets, it seems to be a lot higher than the generally accepted F stop range (6dB being equivalent to one stop - so I believe).
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BJL

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« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2003, 01:46:25 pm »

Since histograms were mentioned, I have some questions. Michael's article seems to show that the 1Ds histogram displays a range of five stops, so

Q1: Do all DSLR histograms use this same range of five stops, from maximum white down?

Q2: Does a camera's histogram always describe raw luminances, or does it show adjusted values after adjustments like contrast settings and colour space choices have been applied?

The five stop would seem to mesh fairly well with the dynamic range possible in prints, but maybe does not cover everything that some cameras are capable of.
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dlashier

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« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2003, 04:23:06 pm »

The Canon on-camera histo divisions represent roughly 1 stop increments with the exception that the rightmost and leftmost probably represent closer to 1.5 stops (or perhaps a bit more) because of TRC considerations (highlight/shadow compression). This was confirmed by Chuck Westfall in this thread.

- DL
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dlashier

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« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2003, 06:12:56 pm »

> Basically, take a sequence of photos of a gray card at various degrees of over- and under-exposure, and see where the spikes fall on the histogram.

This is basically what I did in my tonality study although I didn't go beyond +- 1/3 stop which are shown here.

There's still lots more interesting info that can be derived from my test shots - things like comparing EC with WP setting, deducing the behaviour of C1's contrast slider, etc. Just gotta find the time! But unfortunately I don't think my test shots really provide the data to draw much conclusion about dynamic range.

- DL
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dlashier

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« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2003, 10:55:31 pm »

> Still that is clearly not the whole 12 stop range that is in principle output by its 12 bit linear A/D, so Canon has decided on some basis that the top six stops or so are the main area of interest.

The bit depth only indicates the max DR that can be encoded - it's the sensor and associated electronics that determines actual dynamic range. As someone else pointed out this is subject to your definition of useful data, particularly in the shadows, but my experience with my 1D indicates that it has roughly 6 stops of dynamic range - close but not quite as much as the kodakchrome I shot with for years.

- DL
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Jeff Donald

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Dynamic Range with Digitals...
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2003, 12:39:31 pm »

It's called iB code and it works like html.  A sample list of codes can be accessed from the bottom of the reply box (where you enter text for the reply).  But it basically works like this {url=enter url for the site}type text such as here{/url}  Substitute [ for { and there should be no spaces within [].  I hope this helps.
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d2frette

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« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2003, 03:50:08 pm »

f-stops.

Perhaps this article will help: Understanding Histograms.

- Dave
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Joe Hardesty

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« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2003, 03:52:42 pm »

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...Michael's article seems to show that the 1Ds histogram displays a range of five stops, so...
I belive that your assumption here is wrong. As I recall, and hope Michael corrects me if I'm wrong, he was just using a 5 stop range as an example, NOT to imply that it was the actual range being measured. It is generally felt that the 1Ds has a 7 stop dynamic range.
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Ray

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« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2003, 12:10:21 pm »

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Ray, didn't you find somewhere Kodak guidelines on imag quality in relation to S/N ratios, like 10:1 for acceptable, 40:1 for excellent? If so, please let us know where, I would love to read more!
BJL,
The Kodak paper was on measurement of ISO at this URL http://www.kodak.com/global....nts.pdf

Incidentally, how do I convert this rather long URL into a single word like here?
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