Harman FB Al: Significant bronzing

[jasonrandolph]

After hearing many rave reviews about Harman's FB Al baryta paper, I bought a box to test.  The surface of the paper is outstanding, and from my test prints, B&W prints arevery nice.  I was a bit perturbed, however, when I tried printing a color photograph with very saturated colors.   There was a significant amount of bronzing in the final print.  Considering that I read that this paper had very little bronzing, this was very unexpected.  Just to make sure, I printed the same image at the same size on Epson Exhibition Fiber, and I got beautiful results.  I was disappointed though, because the surface of the FB Al is more aesthetically pleasing.

Has anyone else run into this problem?  Arwe there better alternatives out there?  I was thinking of moving on to Hahnemuhle's PhotoRag Baryta for a test run.  I guess we'll see, but the Harman paper was a definite disappointment.  At least the B&W prints turned out okay.

[agavephoto]

My experiences with this paper on an Epson R2400 have not shown much bronzing at all, black and white OR colour. Colour shots look very nice when I printed on the FB Al and the FB Al Warmtone.

[AaronPhotog]

Jason,

Are you sure you aren't seeing gloss differential or metameric color shift?  

Bronzing usually shows up as color reflections from light gray areas, that depend on the angle of the light to appear.  They don't show up in highly saturated colors, because they are refractive and not purely reflective color, and are easily overcome by the reflective color of the ink or pigment.  You can see gloss differential in adjacent colors, though, again in the lighter steps.

So far, just to be clear, I've found bronzing in the greys of every glossy paper I've tested including the Epson Exhibition Fiber and the Hahnemuhle, but never in the color ramps.  The Harman seems to be one of the least in terms of bronzing in the light grays.  The Harman Warm Tone Glossy FB Al is the best I've found so far in terms of freedom from bronzing.  

If you print a 20 step image of grays and look at it with the light at just the right angle you'll see the bronzing in the first 3 to 6 steps.  It tends to shift from a very subtle silver to yellowish, to orange, to red, and sometimes dark purple as the grey gets darker, and after that the effect disappears.  In an actual photograph, it's usually not noticible under normal lighting.  Shifting in color in different lighting is another problem that is only partly solved, and that is one effect of metamerism.  It used to be much worse than it is now because of improvement in inksets.

Aloha,
Aaron

[kers]

After hearing many rave reviews about Harman's FB Al baryta paper, I bought a box to test.  The surface of the paper is outstanding, and from my test prints, B&W prints arevery nice.  I was a bit perturbed, however, when I tried printing a color photograph with very saturated colors.   There was a significant amount of bronzing in the final print.  Considering that I read that this paper had very little bronzing, this was very unexpected.  Just to make sure, I printed the same image at the same size on Epson Exhibition Fiber, and I got beautiful results.  I was disappointed though, because the surface of the FB Al is more aesthetically pleasing.

Has anyone else run into this problem?  Arwe there better alternatives out there?  I was thinking of moving on to Hahnemuhle's PhotoRag Baryta for a test run.  I guess we'll see, but the Harman paper was a definite disappointment.  At least the B&W prints turned out okay.

Jason, I miss some information- What printer aere you using? If it is an HPZ3100 I can understand what you are seeing. GE does not work on this paper but does on exhibition fibre (also known as Epsontraditional photo paper)

[kers]

made a mistake here

[jasonrandolph]

Thank you all for the input.  Since I'm at work, I can't double-check, but it may be gloss differential.  I think I was so excited to print on the new paper and then was let down by less-than-perfect results.  I'll have to do some more experimentation with it tonight.

By the way, I print on an Epson 3800.

[AaronPhotog]

Jason,

I also use the 3800, and I've had excellent results with the Harman Fiber Based Glossy papers.  They are very sharp, saturated when necessary, accurate, and also great, as you say, with black-and-white.  So far, they are the closest I've found to air dried glossy gelatin silver prints.  I recently had a show in which I used digital black and white prints (on the Harman Gloss Al) and slightly selenium toned silver prints together.  The digital prints, if anything, had equally excellent highlight detail and slightly better blacks, but it was hard to tell which was which without reading the labels.  This gallery, unlike most, had lots of light, too.

The K3 inkset is slightly shinier when dry than the paper surface when printed on the glossy papers, but under most lighting it's not a problem, as there is always some ink (OK, Pigment) everywhere in the print, except some occasional specular highlights.  I'd advise printing at 2880 dpi if you've been testing it at 1440.  If you were seeing bronzing, you'll see less that way.

Also, make sure your white point is a little less than L=100 (in Lab numbers) so there is still a tiny bit of tone in the highlights where you want some tone anyway.  Specular highlights can even be brought a little bit down and still look fine.

You might also read my posts in the recent topics about marks and scratches - one is about Scratches on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk.  You'll need that information if you start using the big sheets of any of the fiber based glossy papers.


Aloha,
Aaron

[jasonrandolph]

Jason,

I also use the 3800, and I've had excellent results with the Harman Fiber Based Glossy papers.  They are very sharp, saturated when necessary, accurate, and also great, as you say, with black-and-white.  So far, they are the closest I've found to air dried glossy gelatin silver prints.  I recently had a show in which I used digital black and white prints (on the Harman Gloss Al) and slightly selenium toned silver prints together.  The digital prints, if anything, had equally excellent highlight detail and slightly better blacks, but it was hard to tell which was which without reading the labels.  This gallery, unlike most, had lots of light, too.

The K3 inkset is slightly shinier when dry than the paper surface when printed on the glossy papers, but under most lighting it's not a problem, as there is always some ink (OK, Pigment) everywhere in the print, except some occasional specular highlights.  I'd advise printing at 2880 dpi if you've been testing it at 1440.  If you were seeing bronzing, you'll see less that way.

Also, make sure your white point is a little less than L=100 (in Lab numbers) so there is still a tiny bit of tone in the highlights where you want some tone anyway.  Specular highlights can even be brought a little bit down and still look fine.

You might also read my posts in the recent topics about marks and scratches - one is about Scratches on Ilford Gold Fiber Silk.  You'll need that information if you start using the big sheets of any of the fiber based glossy papers.


Aloha,
Aaron

Thanks for the info, Aaron.  I was actually printing at 1440, so I'll give 2880 a shot.  Also, I looked at the print last night, and it was most definitely gloss differential, not bronzing.  The light in which i was looking at the print made it look like there was a color shift.  It's definitely a more traditional-feeling paper, which I find very appealing when I want a glossy finish.

On another note, I just received some new Moab papers, made from Japanese Washi papers.  One is apparently almost transparent (55 gsm) and t he other has visible fibers (110 gsm).  I haven't printed anything on them yet, but I'll post results here.  I'm just wondering how to present a semi-transparent paper.  Seems like a simple mat and frame may not be the most aesthetically appealing.

[colinm]

It's definitely a more traditional-feeling paper, which I find very appealing when I want a glossy finish.

Yeah, it's pretty much a ringer for Harman's Ilford papers beyond the slightly-warmer base color. I lived on Ilford FB Gloss in the darkroom, so I'm partial to the Harman Gloss FB. Occasionally I wish it were whiter like its silver-coated sibling, but you can't have everything.

Like Aaron suggested, kicking back your highlights just a little goes a long way toward solving the (what should be minor) gloss differential problem. I find somewhere in the 249/250 range usually works without impacting the image in any meaningful way. There's also always the Highlight Point Shift option in the driver, but I personally find it to be too aggressive.

I'm just wondering how to present a semi-transparent paper.  Seems like a simple mat and frame may not be the most aesthetically appealing.

It actually looks quite nice in a traditional presentation, but you are kind of "wasting" its best qualities presented that way.

The Unryu can lend itself to layering if you've got any ideas or work that would go that direction. It's also one of the few papers where a floating frame can actually serve a purpose.