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Author Topic: Leica M8 / Epson / Sigma  (Read 62084 times)

Geoffrey

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« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2009, 06:50:01 am »

Quote from: carstenw
But in the end, it is what it is, and each of us must decide if we want an M8 or not. I adore the camera, in spite of its faults. I was happy to sell my 5D, and the Leica has exceeded my expectations in almost all ways. The lenses are awesome. But it isn't for everyone, and as James says, it isn't necessarily a rational decisions. I am so thankful that there are still some cameras on the market which awake emotions in me. The typical DSLR might as well be a brick for me, with respect to emotions. The M8 is much more. In that sense, it is like the Contax 645, another flawed, but deeply loved camera, or the Hasselblad V, or the Rolleiflex TLRs, and so on. All these have problems, but their owners wouldn't have traded them for anything, until digital changed the game.

Please note that the whole 'net era has rather sharpened the critique on the M8... its a rather peculiar phenomenon, where the flaws are highlighted, and the strengths are now "emotional". There is a reality to the difficulties with the early M8's, and there still remains some awkwardness in the much more refined M8.2. But the issues ar not just limited to Leica - the level of precision required for good digital work is much much higher than most all of us were (are?) accustomed to in the film era. We also (for our $) expect perfection from companies like Leica, and they, like everyone else, has had issues of catch-up to work out.

Other manufacturers have had issues as well. Without getting into the canon/Nikon discussions, Joseph Holmes has written about very high end MF gear, surprisingly so. Its not at all clear what  is going on - but the issue of specificity and dimensional tolerances are causing a sea change in the photo field. Note that many are testing pictures and sharpness at very high levels of observation (100-200% crops, in the corners) on our PC's.  

The issues with the M8 have been well documented and vetted to be sure; some (like IR) are a bit cumbersome to be sure. But the quality of the M8 pictures are still there, gloriously so. The pictures have a presence and a depth that just lasts over time. Sure, that's an emotional read, but so is use of the eyes to take a picture.

On my first viewing of the M8, it seemed like a silly camera, half nostalgia/half electrics. Months later, took one for a brief spin with a 50 'lux, set on B/W, and surprisingly it  made sense. Didn't want it to, didn't need it to, hadn't thought it would....but it did. Over time, its been nice to learn that those guys in Solms are actually thinking about photography and taking pictures. Not always easy to deal with, and price is certainly an issue, but they are thinking over there, and meeting the needs of real photographers.

On the price issue, the CV lenses are quite nice, and there is a big secondhand market, of high quality.

All this is to say take the criticism with some distance, use your own judgment, and take one for a walk. That goes for all cameras - and the ones with personalities sometimes take a longer time to get to know. Just like people.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2009, 09:02:54 am »

It is interesting to observe that these discussions invariably arise about exactly these flawed but wonderful cameras. No one sits around defending a 1Ds3 or D3x for hours and hours, discussion the emotions, the raw photography and so on. If someone promotes a 1Ds3, it is almost always with words like "it just works", "my customers don't see the difference to MF", and so on, not with passion. Not that this is a bad thing, the world needs them too.

But in 5, 10, 15 years, will people remember the M8? Will people remember the 1Ds3? In some ways I think that only cameras that invoke a feeling of conflict in their owners, which is limited in some way, which will be remembered. It is a rare camera which just does the job which is remembered for years and years.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 09:04:52 am by carstenw »
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shelby_lewis

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« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2009, 09:06:40 am »

Quote from: carstenw
I can only see three reasons:

1) Laziness.
2) Ignorance.
3) Wanting the M8 to underperform.

This surprises me, coming from you Carsten...

(and I'll put it out there that I've only ever really shot raw with my canon stuff)

But, the idea of having a film-like experience... which is what I perceive the m8 to attempt to attain... is right in line with shooting jpegs. Can you imagine just how much more popular and usable, especially for photojournalists (whether shooting weddings or wars) the M8 would be if the jpeg engine were good. This is why many (wedding) journalists that have gone from dslr to m8 end up going to film m6's and 7's.  When I shoot weddings and events, the ability to not be perceived in the room is so hard to attain with the big black cameras of today... at least without buying a $6000 200/f2 so that you can "snipe" your subjects from 100 yards away.  

... god, what a joy it would be to have an M8 that had jpeg output that mimicked the consistency of film and allowed a shooting experience that didn't keep in the back of one's mind the hours of post-work ahead.

YMMV
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henrikfoto

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« Reply #63 on: April 15, 2009, 01:39:38 pm »

Quote from: Anders_HK
Hi

reidreviews.com have reviews that compare the Leica / Zeiss / Voiglander lenses on an M8. The site cost money to access, but was worth it for the reading.

Regards
Anders


Thank you, Anders!!
This was a very nice site for some serious tests. Seems like those Zeiss-lenses in many cases proves more contrasty and sharper even on a Leica M8  
The Leica-lenses even struggles with the 500$ Voigtlander-glass. Take a look and see for yourselves. At least that is what my eyes tells me..

I wonder if the only reason to spend so much more money on the lenses are the coding (should only be important for the wider lenses, like 35mm and shorter)..

Henrik
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 02:41:06 pm by henrikfoto »
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cyberean

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« Reply #64 on: April 15, 2009, 03:56:49 pm »

Quote from: shelby_lewis
... god, what a joy it would be to have an M8 that had jpeg output that mimicked the consistency of film and allowed a shooting experience that didn't keep in the back of one's mind the hours of post-work ahead.
hmm ... that would be called an M7 and a decent scanner ...    

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Carsten W

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« Reply #65 on: April 15, 2009, 04:12:43 pm »

Quote from: shelby_lewis
This surprises me, coming from you Carsten...

(and I'll put it out there that I've only ever really shot raw with my canon stuff)

Perhaps I should have made the context a little clearer: in comparing the M8's performance against other cameras, and knowing that the JPG engine is really not very good, I can see only three reasons for choosing JPG: 1) laziness, 2) ignorance, 3) wanting the M8 to underperform. I have nothing against JPG shooting in general, with other cameras, or even with the M8, but clearly this is not the way to get the M8 to perform well in comparison testing.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 04:13:25 pm by carstenw »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #66 on: April 15, 2009, 04:19:00 pm »

Quote from: henrikfoto
Seems like those Zeiss-lenses in many cases proves more contrasty and sharper even on a Leica M8  

I don't mean to put down Zeiss lenses in any way, and it is entirely possible that some are indeed sharper, but keep in mind that higher contrast gives the appearance of sharper images. They may or may not actually be sharper. Higher contrast can be a minus though, especially in places like the south-western States, where the light is very contrasty already. The captured DR can suffer from higher contrast lenses, with shadows or highlights blocking out quicker.
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shelby_lewis

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« Reply #67 on: April 15, 2009, 10:26:20 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
Perhaps I should have made the context a little clearer: in comparing the M8's performance against other cameras, and knowing that the JPG engine is really not very good, I can see only three reasons for choosing JPG: 1) laziness, 2) ignorance, 3) wanting the M8 to underperform. I have nothing against JPG shooting in general, with other cameras, or even with the M8, but clearly this is not the way to get the M8 to perform well in comparison testing.

ah.. much clearer (and I agree)!
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geesbert

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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2009, 04:50:30 pm »

one thing i really hate is the bad power switch design of the m8. please Leica, make the Self-timer setting adjustable to 0 sec, that would help a lot
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Carsten W

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« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2009, 05:12:37 pm »

Quote from: geesbert
one thing i really hate is the bad power switch design of the m8. please Leica, make the Self-timer setting adjustable to 0 sec, that would help a lot

I know that this isn't a solution which everyone will want to try, but I took my switch apart, adjusted the various tensions, and now the first tension point is non-existent (power on), and the second one has a very light touch (lock exposure). It is a joy to shoot with. One photographer on the Leica forum even polished the various bits in the assembly, and has a smooth as glass release. Okay, he is also a watch-maker, but it is possible
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Chris Livsey

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« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2009, 03:58:17 am »

Quote from: carstenw
I know that this isn't a solution which everyone will want to try, but I took my switch apart, adjusted the various tensions, and now the first tension point is non-existent (power on), and the second one has a very light touch (lock exposure). It is a joy to shoot with. One photographer on the Leica forum even polished the various bits in the assembly, and has a smooth as glass release. Okay, he is also a watch-maker, but it is possible

The OP was referring to the annoying habit of the on/off switch collar rotating too far to self timer mode which many have "fixed" with a judicious piece of tape. However the "roughness" of the shutter release you refer to is also an irritation. The smoothness of my M2s (with no intermediate meter position) is to die for.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2009, 06:23:27 am »

Quote from: Chris Livsey
The OP was referring to the annoying habit of the on/off switch collar rotating too far to self timer mode which many have "fixed" with a judicious piece of tape. However the "roughness" of the shutter release you refer to is also an irritation. The smoothness of my M2s (with no intermediate meter position) is to die for.

Ah, I see. Yes, there seems to be some variation here. My copy has nice firm detents, and it is rare that I don't hit what I want. I have heard of others with too light detents, though.
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TMARK

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« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2009, 09:11:45 am »

I just bought an M8.  I was walking down Broadway and passed the Leica Gallery.  I went up to take a look and ended up going to Kurland.  I walked out with an M8.  A toital impulse buy.

Its a strange camera. Its not as good as an M6.  Its close.  Its not as heavy, as others have mentioned, the shutter button is not smooth.  Mine has deep detents on the on/off/mode switch.  The motor drive sound drove me nuts until I put it in "Discrete" mode.  Now it just clicks like a M6.  Its bigger than the M6 and feels huge compared to an M4.

Frame lines are suggestions at best.

Despite all that, this is a real camera.  You can reconnect with picture taking.  Its intuitive.  You can carry an M8, charger, three lenses in the pockets of a snorkel parka.  My wife wants one, and she has no interest in cameras.

Under lights at base ISO, stopped down, IQ is the same as any digital camera.  They all look alike under lights.  To tell the difference between the M8, P30, Aptus 22, 5D (when shot under lights) you need to look at 100% and that is counter productive.

Essentially it has (slightly) better than 5D MK I resolution (down to lenses and no AA, I suspect) and much better color out of the box.  Wide open, dim natural light, the lenses tell the story.  Its a nice camera and something I will keep. Actually, its the first digital device I've used that isn't destined for a landfill in three years.

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James R Russell

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« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2009, 12:29:17 pm »

Quote from: TMARK
I just bought an M8.  I was walking down Broadway and passed the Leica Gallery.  I went up to take a look and ended up going to Kurland.  I walked out with an M8.  A toital impulse buy.
.........................

 Actually, its the first digital device I've used that isn't destined for a landfill in three years.

Ah the Leica gallery trap.  Been there done that and will probably do it again.

You walk into that old tiny gallery and your surrounded by  those historical photos of Bobby Kennedy in Harlem, or some French Cabaret Dancer in a smokey night club  and you find yourself wanting, desiring to get  out of the perfect spell checked, digital world of 2 second gratification and go back to  where photo studios smelled like two month old fixer and had a futon in the corner that was the den, living room, kitchen table, bed and casting couch.

You see photographs that were not shot for a "job" or for a seminar or to prove that sharpness,  micro detail even focus is that important to any photograph.  

Those photographs were shot by photographers that had to shoot those photographs.

Next you find yourself in Kurland standing in front of aggravating Eli plonking down a credit card for one of his overpriced metal boxes.

The Leica makes absolutely no sense, as you say the framing is just a basic idea of where the crop lines are, the sound of the shutter is somewhat reminiscent of somebody dropping a beer can in a rubbish bin and if it doesn't jam once a day your not using it enough.

Then again, it's a real camera with real F stops, made out of real metal for real photographers.  

Every time I shoot with it and look at the lcd it's like going to the lab and seeing those wonderful organic  surprises because what you see in the smudged Leica viewfinder looks nothing like what you see on the back of the camera, which is always better than what you thought it would be.

Every time I navigate the ms dos menu I laugh because it's almost like Leica begrudgingly put a digital sensor in their film camera and said, "ok we did it, we didn't want to do it, but since we had to do it the digital part is here, just don't shoot it like a digital camera, because it's not".

JRR
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Carsten W

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« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2009, 03:22:31 pm »

Congratulations on the Leica! I was just out shooting today and had partially forgotten how much I enjoy it. There is a solution to three of your comments: 1) give the M8 to your wife, 2) buy the M8.2, and 2a) the framelines are much more accurate, and 2b) the shutter is much quieter, as is the winding. You can even get the M8.2 in black paint with vulcanite covering.
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #75 on: April 18, 2009, 04:21:53 pm »

Quote from: James R Russell
Ah the Leica gallery trap.  Been there done that and will probably do it again.

You walk into that old tiny gallery and your surrounded by  those historical photos of Bobby Kennedy in Harlem, or some French Cabaret Dancer in a smokey night club  and you find yourself wanting, desiring to get  out of the perfect spell checked, digital world of 2 second gratification and go back to  where photo studios smelled like two month old fixer and had a futon in the corner that was the den, living room, kitchen table, bed and casting couch.

You see photographs that were not shot for a "job" or for a seminar or to prove that sharpness,  micro detail even focus is that important to any photograph.  

Those photographs were shot by photographers that had to shoot those photographs.

Next you find yourself in Kurland standing in front of aggravating Eli plonking down a credit card for one of his overpriced metal boxes.

The Leica makes absolutely no sense, as you say the framing is just a basic idea of where the crop lines are, the sound of the shutter is somewhat reminiscent of somebody dropping a beer can in a rubbish bin and if it doesn't jam once a day your not using it enough.

Then again, it's a real camera with real F stops, made out of real metal for real photographers.  

Every time I shoot with it and look at the lcd it's like going to the lab and seeing those wonderful organic  surprises because what you see in the smudged Leica viewfinder looks nothing like what you see on the back of the camera, which is always better than what you thought it would be.

Every time I navigate the ms dos menu I laugh because it's almost like Leica begrudgingly put a digital sensor in their film camera and said, "ok we did it, we didn't want to do it, but since we had to do it the digital part is here, just don't shoot it like a digital camera, because it's not".

JRR


James,

If I recall correct you also shoot using Leaf digital backs. How do you find working with the M8 files in comparison (neglecting the different pixel count)?

Much thanks!

Regards
Anders
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TMARK

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« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2009, 12:04:53 am »

Quote from: James R Russell
Ah the Leica gallery trap.  Been there done that and will probably do it again.

You walk into that old tiny gallery and your surrounded by  those historical photos of Bobby Kennedy in Harlem, or some French Cabaret Dancer in a smokey night club  and you find yourself wanting, desiring to get  out of the perfect spell checked, digital world of 2 second gratification and go back to  where photo studios smelled like two month old fixer and had a futon in the corner that was the den, living room, kitchen table, bed and casting couch.

You see photographs that were not shot for a "job" or for a seminar or to prove that sharpness,  micro detail even focus is that important to any photograph.  

Those photographs were shot by photographers that had to shoot those photographs.

Next you find yourself in Kurland standing in front of aggravating Eli plonking down a credit card for one of his overpriced metal boxes.

The Leica makes absolutely no sense, as you say the framing is just a basic idea of where the crop lines are, the sound of the shutter is somewhat reminiscent of somebody dropping a beer can in a rubbish bin and if it doesn't jam once a day your not using it enough.

Then again, it's a real camera with real F stops, made out of real metal for real photographers.  

Every time I shoot with it and look at the lcd it's like going to the lab and seeing those wonderful organic  surprises because what you see in the smudged Leica viewfinder looks nothing like what you see on the back of the camera, which is always better than what you thought it would be.

Every time I navigate the ms dos menu I laugh because it's almost like Leica begrudgingly put a digital sensor in their film camera and said, "ok we did it, we didn't want to do it, but since we had to do it the digital part is here, just don't shoot it like a digital camera, because it's not".

JRR

James,

Absolutely.

I've had it less than a week and am gaga over this thing.  Damn Eli and his honey trap on Broadway.  I find myself "needing" a 24mm so I can use the broadest frame lines possible, even if they are just suggestions.  I find myself asking what I've gotten myself into.
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georgl

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« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2009, 04:05:11 am »

M8: 138mm x 77mm x 38mm
Film-M (except for M6TTL/M7): 139mm x 80mm x 37mm

It's funny how the design seems to trick the subjective impression of the photographer... It's just as big as other Ms (except for 3mm (!!!) height difference).
The viewfinder-frames in the M8 were designed for close distance, they should never show more than the actual picture - this was changed with the M8.2
If I had to choose now, I would take the M8.2 - don't underestimate it's subtle improvements.

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Carsten W

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« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2009, 05:20:55 am »

Quote from: georgl
M8: 138mm x 77mm x 38mm
Film-M (except for M6TTL/M7): 139mm x 80mm x 37mm

It's funny how the design seems to trick the subjective impression of the photographer... It's just as big as other Ms (except for 3mm (!!!) height difference).

It is not only an impression. The M8 is thicker where you hold it. The total thickness isn't the whole story. I could make some more pertinent measurements of my M8 and M6 (classic) when I get home, if anyone is interested.

More seriously, the removal of the film wind lever makes the M8 harder to grip properly, and the M6-style grip is not available for the M8. Personally, I don't like the shape of the M8 grip, so I use it without, but I would dearly welcome the return of the winding lever to cock the shutter manually, and to place my thumb behind..
« Last Edit: April 20, 2009, 05:23:16 am by carstenw »
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geesbert

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« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2009, 05:57:18 am »

Carsten, have you tried the 'Thumbs Up'?
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