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Author Topic: Leica M8 / Epson / Sigma  (Read 62055 times)

Paul Kay

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« Reply #40 on: April 14, 2009, 08:59:38 am »

I use Canons (inc. a 5DII) and an M8. IMHO the Canon's are workhorses but the M8 is a 'photographer's camera'. If I can choose which to use I'll opt for the Leica but often the Canons prove to be more effective for many jobs where reflex viewing and a high degree of versatility are essential. The M8 produces very fine images but relies on considerable user input and as such is not for everyone. As has been said before you really need to try it out extensively before you opt for it.
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #41 on: April 14, 2009, 09:48:02 am »

I use the M8 with 35 Asph Cron along with my workhorse 1DS3 and would offer a couple of observations. Firstly i agree with previous posters who say that some lenses can be off in terms of focus wide open, i tried 3 bodies to get one that was right. Secondly the image quality, is literally beautiful... in a very un-Canon/Nikon way, bit noisy but very sharp and textural with 'body' to the colour that is different to my Canon, in fact the Leica file in Capture One reminds me of Kodachrome.

Leica files upsize incredibly well and viewed at 50% look at least good as my 1DS3 files, however in terms of detail at 100% fall short in reality. As others say, for assignment i would rely on the Canon, but the Leica has real personal appeal and can really surprise.

Gary.
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henrikfoto

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« Reply #42 on: April 14, 2009, 10:03:09 am »

Quote from: Gary Yeowell
I use the M8 with 35 Asph Cron along with my workhorse 1DS3 and would offer a couple of observations. Firstly i agree with previous posters who say that some lenses can be off in terms of focus wide open, i tried 3 bodies to get one that was right. Secondly the image quality, is literally beautiful... in a very un-Canon/Nikon way, bit noisy but very sharp and textural with 'body' to the colour that is different to my Canon, in fact the Leica file in Capture One reminds me of Kodachrome.

Leica files upsize incredibly well and viewed at 50% look at least good as my 1DS3 files, however in terms of detail at 100% fall short in reality. As others say, for assignment i would rely on the Canon, but the Leica has real personal appeal and can really surprise.

Gary.



Hi!

Is it possible to see a file or two? (Just a dowsampled one for this forum maybe..)

Henrik
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #43 on: April 14, 2009, 10:42:14 am »

Hi,

I have Sigma DP1 as small complement to my Aptus 65 on Mamiya 645 - DP1 feels like a mixed bag, capable of more "near medium format like" images than any camera of its size, albeit not medium format obvious. I do not feel content with the colors, while the Aptus 65 is excellent. Had the G9 for few weeks before, sold it off to my nephew. Some of photos he has pulled from it with no photo experience has surprised me. I have not owned an M8 but I do find it an interesting camera, and the images as posted on internet appear much as 10MP medium format images. What more... it is a camera, with manual focus and aperture on the lenses, and it feels like a camera in the hands and when viewing through it! Having the Voiglander 28mm viewfinder on my DP1 sure helps... but still...

I shot Nikon F100 before, but with digital Nikon and SLRs lost me... too much auto features and buttons. The DP1 is step in right direction, but... feels still a tad too much like build of digital compact, but with a sensor that can yield very capable results under certain circumstances... given that one take time to process them. Is the M8 more right on, if exposures are right? Sure, many buy it as luxury goods and make snapshots... but even such photos show image attributes of the sensor such as pleasing color etc. That is interesting... thus if I speculate; is the M8 then perhaps similar to my Aptus 65 when viewing rawfiles... and frequent requiring few adjustments if exposure is made correct (perhaps exposed same as slide film??)? Would that correct way to say???

See threads on M8 here for photos and more http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=3

Reidreviews have articles that well describes the M8 and its limitations in design http://www.reidreviews.com/reidreviews/

James, did you say that when shooting color raw it is possible to leave the lcd set to B&W??? That would be awesome, same as seeing tonal zones displayed (graphic) after a shot, same as the zone system tonal scales!

Here is one forum thread on DP1 versus M8 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/...comparison.html

Reidreviews also have articles on lenses. The Leica 28mm 2.8 seem stellar, but Voiglander have some gems as well; 12mm, 15mm, 50 / 1.5, 75mm / 2.5.


I hope above helps. Some interesting posts in this thread.

Regards
Anders
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 11:20:17 am by Anders_HK »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #44 on: April 14, 2009, 10:47:32 am »

With some of the earlier firmware revisions, you could set the camera to DNG+JPG, change to B&W, and then set the camera back to DNG only, with the previews and DNG header thumbnails being B&W. Unfortunately, it was removed by Leica in one of the updates. I would love to have that back in a formally sanctioned implementation. It was very nice to have a B&W workflow while shooting.

You can still shoot in B&W if you shoot either JPG or DNG+JPG, but the former is not terribly satisfying, as the M8's JPG quality is not that great, and the latter slows down the camera significantly, and then you have to trash all these extra JPGs at some point.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 10:48:34 am by carstenw »
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dalethorn

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« Reply #45 on: April 14, 2009, 10:59:23 am »

Quote from: Gary Yeowell
Firstly i agree with previous posters who say that some lenses can be off in terms of focus wide open, i tried 3 bodies to get one that was right.

I thought Leica's main justification for high price was exceptional quality control. Are you saying that their M8 bodies have that much variance?
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #46 on: April 14, 2009, 11:15:38 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
I thought Leica's main justification for high price was exceptional quality control. Are you saying that their M8 bodies have that much variance?

Err...... afraid so!    The problem can be the body or lens or both.
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Carsten W

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« Reply #47 on: April 14, 2009, 01:30:05 pm »

Quote from: Gary Yeowell
Err...... afraid so!    The problem can be the body or lens or both.

This makes the problem sound worse than it is: the focusing mechanism is fully mechanical and can go out of adjustment with a medium bump, so trying three bodies was necessary only to get one which was still properly adjusted for focus. The tools for doing this yourself are simple and it can be done at home with a bit of patience (I have done it), or alternatively, it can be sent to local Leica experts who can do it. There is nothing inherently wrong with a body which cannot focus properly, it is just a question of adjustment.

The lenses are more complex, but also rarely need this type of adjustment, and they don't tend to go out of adjustment, so it is mostly a one-time thing.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 01:30:56 pm by carstenw »
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #48 on: April 14, 2009, 02:08:55 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
This makes the problem sound worse than it is: the focusing mechanism is fully mechanical and can go out of adjustment with a medium bump, so trying three bodies was necessary only to get one which was still properly adjusted for focus. The tools for doing this yourself are simple and it can be done at home with a bit of patience (I have done it), or alternatively, it can be sent to local Leica experts who can do it. There is nothing inherently wrong with a body which cannot focus properly, it is just a question of adjustment.

The lenses are more complex, but also rarely need this type of adjustment, and they don't tend to go out of adjustment, so it is mostly a one-time thing.

I don't really think that it makes it sound worse than it is, as the problem is there for sure, and as you say with rangefinder focus is an issue and has always been an issue, just that the M8 makes it easy to check straight away and digital is more focus critical than film especially with the ease of 100% viewing, and maybe people used to think they had missed focus rather than blame their M6's.

Yes the problem can be fixed, but it is not so easy with variations of lenses and bodies.  Suffice to say if you get a lens and body that work together then great, leave it on and shoot.

Gary.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 02:11:59 pm by Gary Yeowell »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2009, 04:02:07 pm »

Quote from: Gary Yeowell
I don't really think that it makes it sound worse than it is

My issue was that the description made it sounds like several flawed bodies (like the Canon lens QC roulette) rather than bodies which needed adjustment.
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mtomalty

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« Reply #50 on: April 14, 2009, 04:42:30 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
My issue was that the description made it sounds like several flawed bodies (like the Canon lens QC roulette) rather than bodies which needed adjustment.

Agreed.  There were FAR more than several flawed bodies   :>))


Mark
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 04:43:15 pm by mtomalty »
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John_Black

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« Reply #51 on: April 14, 2009, 05:39:48 pm »

I have some full-size raw files here; I think they are on the 4th page.  The M8 is an amazing camera, but if measured on price & pixels, then the business case is not pretty.  James' comments aptly describe the M8.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 05:40:22 pm by John_Black »
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henrikfoto

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« Reply #52 on: April 14, 2009, 06:37:17 pm »

Has anybody tried the Zeiss-glass for Leica M8?

H
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #53 on: April 14, 2009, 07:54:41 pm »

Quote from: henrikfoto
Has anybody tried the Zeiss-glass for Leica M8?

H

I have.  Several of them are phenomenal ---- the 18, 21 and 28 are all excellent.
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dalethorn

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« Reply #54 on: April 14, 2009, 10:36:17 pm »

Quote from: mtomalty
Agreed.  There were FAR more than several flawed bodies   :>))
Mark

This sounds terrible. Worse than terrible. I don't see pros buying nearly as many of these as a few thousand quality-conscious "purists" who were always attracted to Leica M cameras. And for $8000 or so they can't even get the basics right?

Now I do remember reading about M cameras being "accurized" back in the 70's and 80's, for example to get the shutter to do what the setting indicated. But that was just a variance in speed, easily compensated by changing the setting. But the M8 is digital, and I can't imagine buyers expecting to have to accurize them, let alone the lenses.
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Anders_HK

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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2009, 01:08:31 am »

Quote from: henrikfoto
Has anybody tried the Zeiss-glass for Leica M8?

H

Hi

reidreviews.com have reviews that compare the Leica / Zeiss / Voiglander lenses on an M8. The site cost money to access, but was worth it for the reading.

Regards
Anders
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James R Russell

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« Reply #56 on: April 15, 2009, 01:27:18 am »

Quote from: carstenw
My issue was that the description made it sounds like several flawed bodies (like the Canon lens QC roulette) rather than bodies which needed adjustment.

There are some Leica flawed bodies and lenses.  Every maker has them, maybe Leica more than others, who knows?

The thing is this is not a logical camera, which makes it even better but logic really doesn't weigh into it when it comes to this stuff, using what you want to use is what matters.

It's a Leica and just like a Maseratti is fascinating so is this camera, Though a toyota is a more logical choice and has a lot less flaws.

You'll never be able to make logical sense of this purchase, but that is a good thing.





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paratom

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« Reply #57 on: April 15, 2009, 03:19:41 am »

Quote from: henrikfoto
Has anybody tried the Zeiss-glass for Leica M8?

H

I have the 50/1.5. It delievers a special look however the bokeh can get funky sometimes.
For wides (35mm and wider) I would prefer Leica glass because it is coded and you can use the vignetting and color correction of the M8 without having to self-code or post-correct.
My absolute most used and favorite lenses are 28/2.0asph and 50/1.4asph.
I also believe that the Summarits are very nice lenses (I only own the 75 Summarit but prefer it even to the 75/1.4)
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Carsten W

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« Reply #58 on: April 15, 2009, 05:30:57 am »

Quote from: dalethorn
This sounds terrible. Worse than terrible. I don't see pros buying nearly as many of these as a few thousand quality-conscious "purists" who were always attracted to Leica M cameras. And for $8000 or so they can't even get the basics right?

Now I do remember reading about M cameras being "accurized" back in the 70's and 80's, for example to get the shutter to do what the setting indicated. But that was just a variance in speed, easily compensated by changing the setting. But the M8 is digital, and I can't imagine buyers expecting to have to accurize them, let alone the lenses.

Lens problems are no more frequent than for other brands. The vague "flaws" statement might refer partially to the rangefinder system, which goes out of adjustment too easily, and needs to be updated for the modern age. It might refer to the "oversight" of the infrared sensitivity of the sensor, requiring filters. It might refer to the behaviour with a bright light just outside the viewable area, where a green stripe might appear. Other than that, I don't recall anything which could be referred to as "far more than several flawed bodies", and Leica has dealt with all of this under warranty and with firmware updates, other than the two issues mentioned.

I agree that the IR sensitivity and the green stripe aren't desirable and shouldn't have happened. Neither should the AF failures of the high-end Canons. Neither should the IR sensitivity of some early Nikon DSLRs. Neither should any number of other problems which happen daily in the MF world.

But in the end, it is what it is, and each of us must decide if we want an M8 or not. I adore the camera, in spite of its faults. I was happy to sell my 5D, and the Leica has exceeded my expectations in almost all ways. The lenses are awesome. But it isn't for everyone, and as James says, it isn't necessarily a rational decision. I am thankful that there are still some cameras on the market which awake emotions in me. The typical DSLR might as well be a brick for me, with respect to emotions. The M8 is much more. In that sense, it is like the Contax 645, another flawed, but deeply loved camera, or the Hasselblad V, or the Rolleiflex TLRs, and so on. All these have problems, but their owners wouldn't have traded them for anything, until digital changed the game.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2009, 08:55:59 am by carstenw »
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Gary Yeowell

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« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2009, 06:46:57 am »

'The M8 is much more. In that sense, it is like the Contax 645, another flawed, but deeply loved camera, or the Hasselblad V, or the Rolleiflex TLRs, and so on. All these have problems, but their owners wouldn't have traded them for anything, until digital changed the game'.


Agree with that!
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