Questions about Agency/representation

[dustblue]

Hi all:

Today I talked to a big Agency in Beijing and show my portfolio to them, they are interested in signing me, for five years: during these five years they forbid me to do any job on my own, any work I do must go through them first. And what they can give me is:  4A cases, starting from small campaigns(I graduated 18 months ago, major in physics, and jumpinp in commercial photography from that on;but I have not done ANY 4A cases), to the big ones(after I'm experienced).

So my questions are:

1. Is this contract a good deal? I would definetely lose some freedom if I sign it,  and any client I find on my own, I'll have to give the agency a portion of my profit(maybe 20%-30%). So if I don't get many 4A cases from them in the future,  I'll just give money away.

2. The Agency represents some european cars shooters, they told me the photographer only get 9%-11% of the whole budget(including production and retouching) which is usually 1500-2000$ per day. Do you guys believe it? Is it the same on your part of world?

3. What is the usual ratio a photographer get from the agency? Is it 70%? If I decide to sign the contract, I'll have to know some numbers to negotiate with them about the ratio...

4. Do you think 5 years is too long for a contract like this? I'd rather like it to be 3 years, but they said 5 years is the minimum...

I welcome any kind of reply/experience.
Thanks in advance.

Dustblue

[mcfoto]

Hi all:

Today I talked to a big Agency in Beijing and show my portfolio to them, they are interested in signing me, for five years: during these five years they forbid me to do any job on my own, any work I do must go through them first. And what they can give me is:  4A cases, starting from small campaigns(I graduated 18 months ago, major in physics, and jumpinp in commercial photography from that on;but I have not done ANY 4A cases), to the big ones(after I'm experienced).

So my questions are:

1. Is this contract a good deal? I would definetely lose some freedom if I sign it,  and any client I find on my own, I'll have to give the agency a portion of my profit(maybe 20%-30%). So if I don't get many 4A cases from them in the future,  I'll just give money away.

2. The Agency represents some european cars shooters, they told me the photographer only get 9%-11% of the whole budget(including production and retouching) which is usually 1500-2000$ per day. Do you guys believe it? Is it the same on your part of world?

3. What is the usual ratio a photographer get from the agency? Is it 70%? If I decide to sign the contract, I'll have to know some numbers to negotiate with them about the ratio...

4. Do you think 5 years is too long for a contract like this? I'd rather like it to be 3 years, but they said 5 years is the minimum...

I welcome any kind of reply/experience.
Thanks in advance.

Dustblue

Hi
Questions
What is a 4A case?
With normal contracts with agents & you can break them anytime but you will have to give them 3 months of future work fees ( 20-30% of the fees only)
Is this a photography agent or Ad agency?
A good photography rep can really help your career.
Denis

[terence_patrick]

Do you have a link to the agency's site? You might get a better feeling if their talent roster is respectable in your eyes and can give you insight to their relationship with the agency. What's the ratio of agent/talent? Your best bet is to shop your work around and see what other agencies offer you.

[paulmoorestudio]

I do think a rep can be a great thing.. but I would not suggest a 5yr right off the bat.. I would have a 1yr trial with no severence and the option to get out from either side..after  a year maybe the typical 3 - 4 month severence commission.. I had a very long term run with an agent and when we parted I paid a year of severence at full commission and an additional 6 months at 10%.  (you think that is bad my x did much better than that)
I also don't know what 4a cases are... but 1500- 2000 usd for national or international advertising usage is low..and remember it is a fee not a day rate.
I also was confused with your concept of the agent getting a percentage of your "profit".  they should only get a cut of your creative fees.. if you can make a profit in the other areas then that is your business.. do they do all the estimating, billing and collection?  that may change the equation.  I always had final say on the estimate..and I did the billing.

[ziocan]

Hi all:

Today I talked to a big Agency in Beijing and show my portfolio to them, they are interested in signing me, for five years: during these five years they forbid me to do any job on my own, any work I do must go through them first. And what they can give me is:  4A cases, starting from small campaigns(I graduated 18 months ago, major in physics, and jumpinp in commercial photography from that on;but I have not done ANY 4A cases), to the big ones(after I'm experienced).

So my questions are:

1. Is this contract a good deal? I would definetely lose some freedom if I sign it,  and any client I find on my own, I'll have to give the agency a portion of my profit(maybe 20%-30%). So if I don't get many 4A cases from them in the future,  I'll just give money away.

2. The Agency represents some european cars shooters, they told me the photographer only get 9%-11% of the whole budget(including production and retouching) which is usually 1500-2000$ per day. Do you guys believe it? Is it the same on your part of world?

3. What is the usual ratio a photographer get from the agency? Is it 70%? If I decide to sign the contract, I'll have to know some numbers to negotiate with them about the ratio...

4. Do you think 5 years is too long for a contract like this? I'd rather like it to be 3 years, but they said 5 years is the minimum...

I welcome any kind of reply/experience.
Thanks in advance.

Dustblue

I do not think any of the big car guys would ever answer the phone for 1500/2000$ a day.
You should consider very carefully what they are proposing to you, because it does not seem anything close to a fair deal.

As for the contract of exclusivity it is worth if the agent represent you on a country were you are not based, because it is highly unlikely you will get jobs on your own, if you are not there. Therefore you got almost nothing to lose.
The two occasion that I gave exclusivity to my agents, I ended up passing them more money than they were giving to me. As far as I see it, it should be the agent role of looking for work and not ours. But then again there are exceptions. Some agents are really good and may represent your interests with your own clients even better than you could do. But it is extremely rare to see that happening.
What it may likely happens is that after you pass one of your clients to your agent, after the first job you do with them, they will take the liberty of sending others photographers portfolios to your client, without you to know.  After the first job it will not be your client anymore. That is a very common problem with sharing your clients with your agent.

[Derryck]

In China they refer to a 4A (American Association of Advertising Agencies)  being one of the big Advertising agencies such as Ogilvy, Leo Burnett, Saatchi & Saatchi etc. Just means that they are promising to get you work on a big budget account, but for $1500-2000/day it looks like they'll be taking more than their fair share. I charge that for simple product shots on a white background. The concept of photographers agents is still fairly new here in China with most photographers representing themselves and dealing directly with the advertising agencies. Don't forget you'll be still bidding against those other photographers but having to pay your agent 20-30% as well. I think it's different if you're a well established name in the industry, but if you're starting out with no guarantee of them securing the work for you there's no way you should sign up with them for 5 years.

For much less money ($750-1200/mth) you could hire someone to become your agent full-time and during the periods where they aren't on the road selling your talents they can work as your studio/office manager.

Just my two cents.

Cheers,

Derryck.

[dustblue]

Thank you guys! I got a lot useful information from you.
I'm sorry I didn't make it clear about "4A", and Derryck is absolutely right about the explanation. (Thank you Derryck  )

This agent is a big photography agent, they provide production to 4A agency and have all those big clients, they work with all the big Ads Agency in China and have a big human net work(I mean they and the Ads Agency's CD/AB/ADs are all good friends, and this is VERY important in China). So they are very powerful, and maybe that's why they proposed a really unfair way of contract.

I think I should propose to keep my own clients, just give them a part of my creative fees, if I finally sign the exclusive contract(cause I made profit from the production).

I am interested in signing with them because that's a short cut to Ads photography. Ads Agency doesn't like to use a photographer if he/she has no experience of execution for big campaigns(at least in China). So if I want to do big campaigns, I'll have to figure a way out.  

I would like to hire a good full-time agent too, but only if he has the relationship with those 4A agencies---such kind of people all have their own business, and their income is much more than $1000/mth...

Thanks again!

Dustblue

[geesbert]

You should really think hard about this, you tying yourself to something, which might hinder you at a later time.

if you start with a big agency, they usually have their premium photographers, which they always try to sell first, as a beginner (here they sometimes call that 'junior star') you'll be pretty much down the line. and then, if clients are not going for names, they go for price, and with an agency you are 20-30% more expensive or you earn 20-30% less, you decide.

I went through the process of talking to agencies two years ago, and I got a few offers, but decided to stay without, which was a good move for myself. many clients and ad agencies i talked to told me they are annoyed by yet another person in the communication chain, they rather talk to the photographer themself or their studio-manager.

[paul_jones]

i think trust is a big part of the photographer/ agent relationship. neither of my two agents (www.matchphotographers.com and www.lookproduction.com) have asked for a contract.
signing up for 5 years seems a bit too long. one agent i looked into a while back wanted 6 months notice for leaving the agency, and that was fair enough as they put quite a bit into marketing and it fair you dont take the momentum of that when you leave.

also, the day rate doesnt seem quite enough. but it also depends on usage, you should be getting extra money if they use the shots for different medias, or different territory. but im not sure how HK works. but i have done work in singapore and got 4 X my day rate as the campaigns have been used internationally. the one HK job i did was used locally, but i did get quite a bit more than 1500usd per day.
but day rates arnt everything, i think days booked per month is what you should be considering. so what if you are getting 5k a day, if you work a day a month. if these guys get you 20 shoot days a month, then maybe its a good deal. still think 5 years is a dangerous contract...

paul

[dustblue]

Thank you Stefan and Paul, I really appreciate your advices.
Dustblue

[eronald]

This agent is a big photography agent, they provide production to 4A agency and have all those big clients, they work with all the big Ads Agency in China and have a big human net work(I mean they and the Ads Agency's CD/AB/ADs are all good friends, and this is VERY important in China). So they are very powerful, and maybe that's why they proposed a really unfair way of contract.
Dustblue

I suspect that if you want clients in China, you need to work with an agency that "keeps the clients happy". We don't need to detail the ways a photo agency or model agency can keep the clients happy.

I used to do runway. I tried to work for magazines in France, and I kept hearing "can we see your book? we already have people we work with, but can we photocopy these images please? we already have people we work with, we're really sorry we already have people we work with so we *cannot* use you". After a while the penny dropped. A big non-french fashion glossy magazine which had *repeatedly* run my images in the past asked for *me* to represent them at Cannes, and was told that while they could send a journalist, no problem, they should buy their *images* form one of the "accredited" agencies, I wasn't good enough  . Get it? I don't think it's any different in advertising.

Edmund

[dustblue]

Thanks Edmund.

The relationships in China is very important, and to start/keep a relationship with clients you need to be nice, honest, and do good job. Nothing secret here. Chinese tend to be conservative, most of the time we only trust people we've already known, and the better we know each other, the more tendency we have to keep working together.

For example I used to take my portfolio to magazine editors whom I've never talked with to try to get the job, I rarely succeed. But if I was introduced by the editor's friend, then I always get the job(still AFTER I show him/her my portfolio). So you can see here "TRUST" is the core, "relationship" is just the surface.

And to keep the clients happy, just get the job done nicely and smoothly. Of course if you become friends with the clients, and play golf together, it would be better. I think it's the same around the world about this.

Dustblue
 

I suspect that if you want clients in China, you need to work with an agency that "keeps the clients happy". We don't need to detail the ways a photo agency or model agency can keep the clients happy.

I used to do runway. I tried to work for magazines in France, and I kept hearing "can we see your book? we already have people we work with, but can we photocopy these images please? we already have people we work with, we're really sorry we already have people we work with so we *cannot* use you". After a while the penny dropped. A big non-french fashion glossy magazine which had *repeatedly* run my images in the past asked for *me* to represent them at Cannes, and was told that while they could send a journalist, no problem, they should buy their *images* form one of the "accredited" agencies, I wasn't good enough  . Get it? I don't think it's any different in advertising.

Edmund

[eronald]

Thanks Edmund.

The relationships in China is very important, and to start/keep a relationship with clients you need to be nice, honest, and do good job. Nothing secret here. Chinese tend to be conservative, most of the time we only trust people we've already known, and the better we know each other, the more tendency we have to keep working together.

For example I used to take my portfolio to magazine editors whom I've never talked with to try to get the job, I rarely succeed. But if I was introduced by the editor's friend, then I always get the job(still AFTER I show him/her my portfolio). So you can see here "TRUST" is the core, "relationship" is just the surface.

And to keep the clients happy, just get the job done nicely and smoothly. Of course if you become friends with the clients, and play golf together, it would be better. I think it's the same around the world about this.

Dustblue

Either the agency operates as a straightforward introduction, sales and billing business, in which case their fees and conditions will be reasonable, or they need to do more, in which case, obviously, their fees will be much larger.

What you might ask yourself is a different question: "Why should the client be prepared to pay $100 to an agency for a job which you do if he can get it done by directly contracting someone like you for $60 ?"  If the agency can -somehow- justify that to the client's decision makers, you need the agency.

I have used agencies - not for photo- and they had both reasonable commissions and excellent answers to the above question.


Edmund

[jjlphoto]

It sounds like they are acting like a 'studio' themselves and want to contract with you to be on of their independent contractors, producing shots for 'their' clients.

Some questions- who provides the cameras? Computers? Lighting? Crew? Who scouts locations? Etc., etc. Is it their stuff and a crew they have on contract as well? Or do you have control over the entire production? Who outlays the cash for preproduction, travel, models, etc?

[Shedaoshai]

2. The Agency represents some european cars shooters, they told me the photographer only get 9%-11% of the whole budget(including production and retouching) which is usually 1500-2000$ per day. Do you guys believe it? Is it the same on your part of world?

3. What is the usual ratio a photographer get from the agency? Is it 70%? If I decide to sign the contract, I'll have to know some numbers to negotiate with them about the ratio...

4. Do you think 5 years is too long for a contract like this? I'd rather like it to be 3 years, but they said 5 years is the minimum...

I welcome any kind of reply/experience.
Thanks in advance.

Dustblue

2) definitely to low, with this kind of dayrate you would starve within some years (think of your expenses!)
3) it depends on the agency ... in the last years i have seen a lot of contracts, from 20% to 50% (but never more)
4) to long! the hardest contract i've ever seen (the reason a friend of mine didn't signed it) was about 3.5 years

my experiences are from europe (UK, FR, GER and IT)

what agency you're talking about?

[dustblue]

Thank you!

The agency does all the production, and they provide preproduction fees. Still they'll bidding on my name, they want to "make" me famous and make more money from this later, and this is why they want to sign a very long time contract.

So I'll stick to the number 20%-50%, very useful information, thanks a lot Shedaoshai!

Dustblue

[ziocan]

The agency does all the production, and they provide preproduction fees. Still they'll bidding on my name, they want to "make" me famous and make more money from this later, and this is why they want to sign a very long time contract.

Dustblue

I wish you the best, but you cannot be sure of anything like that happening. If something will not go as planned or hoped, do you want to be stock with them for 5 years?

then probably, what seems an already unfair deal today (at least to me), you may want to renegotiate it in 18 months time from now. Few months from now, when you will have a better understanding of the business,  I bet you will want to renegotiate a deal like that.

You should not tie to any agent for more than 18 months.
Think, if you are that good, or as good as they think you can get, you will be very unhappy having to work for the "big paid jobs" and not getting paid accordingly.
None of the "big car guys" would ever answer the phone for making 2 grands a day shooting cars. none.

[Derryck]

Five years is an eternity in China. I've been here almost that long and it's taken me much less time than that to realise that very few local people think long term. Probably due to the fact that the rules can and do change overnight. People here are interested in making money fast with little consideration for future. Also contracts have little value here unlike in the West. It's certainly true that an introduction goes a long way into securing new clients but so does having a great folio and providing good customer service, something that is still lacking in China. I think that there are other ways to get your foot in the door with the agencies that doesn't involve giving away your first born child.

When you are next down in Shanghai please feel free to drop by for a coffee.

Cheers,

Derryck.

[dustblue]

ziocan: If I really decide to sign the contract I'll make sure there is an item to secure the future works from them, like "if I don't get ## works/month from you, you pay me at least ##$/month", this idea comes from a friend of mine who is an agent of a very "big" photographer in China, so I think it should works.
And thank you for your advice:)

Derryck: You have a very good view of local business men, and you are absolutely right about it. Anyway a serious contract is still bounded by the law. It's just people usually dont take it seriously when they think they DON'T really need it.
I'm sure I'll let you know next time when I go to shanghai:) Thank you~

Dustblue
 

[jjlphoto]

The agency does all the production, and they provide preproduction fees. Still they'll bidding on my name, they want to "make" me famous and make more money from this later, and this is why they want to sign a very long time contract.

If that is the case, they are not really an agency per-se, rather they are operating as a 'studio', and you are being asked to sign on as one of their contract shooters. Also, if they are doing all the production work, you do not really have much control over how the shot is to be executed. IOW, it won't really be how you'd do it. It would be how they want you to do it.

Some questions: Do you get to own the images? Can you re-sell them ? Use them for your own self-promotion?

There are some good points to consider. For some folks, having a regular gig like that can be a great way to get yourself some regular cash flow, but I would limit the contractual relationship to one or two very specific types of assignments. Otherwise, they will a noose on you for everything, and as stated, will want their cut, and possibly ownership of all the work.

Hire a lawyer experienced in personal services contracts, intellectual property rights, etc., at an international level. Then based on his advice, start negotiating.