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Author Topic: Automatic Panorama Head  (Read 13863 times)

Lefa66

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Automatic Panorama Head
« on: April 07, 2009, 02:10:17 am »

Hi!

I am thinking of buying an automatic panorama head and need some advice. I have seen that Peacriver studios make Pixorb and Clauss makes RODEON VR Head. Unfortunately they seem a bit pricey, which I think is a shame because they are out of reach of so many. They obviously are quality products and the production series are probably small, which increases the price, but still.

1)Do you have any experience with any automatic panorama head ?
2)Are you thinking of getting one ?
3)What do you think would be an acceptable price for an automatic panorama head ?
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OldRoy

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« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2009, 06:08:15 am »

Hi (again?)
No on all counts, however I do shoot VRs. I'm interested to know what the market for these beasts is. So my question is, what would you use it for? Is the volume you are shooting the deciding factor? The workload, in my experience, is heavily weighted at the PP stage, not the shooting. Any correctly set up precision manual panhead enables you to shoot a set rapidly enough - a few minutes per setup, even shooting VR brackets.

Roy
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Lefa66

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2009, 08:12:35 am »

I agree about the preparing and positioning, but take for example 6*8 pic panorama and do bracketing * 3 = 144 pics. With my current camera I can have mirror lockup and take a pic on one button press if I use the automatic timer of 2 seconds. This ends up in almost 5 minutes. + the time it takes to reposition the camera 47 times (which takes more than 2s/move). And of course one wants to take a second shot too just to be sure.
I feel like its a bit of a hassle.
I also think that a study model it could be used a a normal head, I don't want to carry too much with me.
I also think these can be used for bulb exposure and time laps ?
And at least it seems that The Rodeon is accepting an remote control too ?
So basically it would take away lots of labor and do the shooting more rapid than I could ever do, which would be beneficial when the light is changing.
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Panopeeper

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« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2009, 10:40:25 am »

Quote from: Lefa66
With my current camera I can have mirror lockup and take a pic on one button press if I use the automatic timer of 2 seconds.
What is your current camera?
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Gabor

rljones

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2009, 08:26:10 pm »

I've bought an Automate head with a PDA, but it just arrived and I've not yet used it.

http://www.thegadgetworks.com/
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Lefa66

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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2009, 03:59:05 am »

Quote from: Panopeeper
What is your current camera?
The current camera is 5DMKII
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OldRoy

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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2009, 05:06:34 am »

Perhaps a misunderstanding here. By PP I meant post-processing. With a correctly set up panhead, shooting a 7 exposure bracket (because of limitations of Nikon bracketing) for VR panorama - 6 shots round, 1 zenith, 3 nadirs - usually takes me less than 10 minutes. However converting the raws, HDR/tonemapping, stitching, final tweaking in PS and creation of .swf and/or .mov for web use takes up to 90 minutes as a single process. If I was using a panhead precise enough to make templating a realistic option (I currently use an NN3) the stitching component would be quicker of course, maybe halving the total time required. I wish I needed this!
Roy
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Lefa66

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2009, 06:40:23 am »

Quote from: OldRoy
Perhaps a misunderstanding here. By PP I meant post-processing. With a correctly set up panhead, shooting a 7 exposure bracket (because of limitations of Nikon bracketing) for VR panorama - 6 shots round, 1 zenith, 3 nadirs - usually takes me less than 10 minutes. However converting the raws, HDR/tonemapping, stitching, final tweaking in PS and creation of .swf and/or .mov for web use takes up to 90 minutes as a single process. If I was using a panhead precise enough to make templating a realistic option (I currently use an NN3) the stitching component would be quicker of course, maybe halving the total time required. I wish I needed this!
Roy
Sorry about the misunderstanding!  When your doing the post processing at home you obviously end up spending some time on the pic, however it doesn't bother if it rains or shines or the light is changing. But out in the field, that's another story. And taking lots of photos in a sequence can introduce error possibilities, not to motion the feeling of being a button pressing monkey. The other thing with setting the automatic head to do the job is you actually have a few minutes to evaluate the scene over again and think of some other approach.
Obviously this needs a good straight forward user interface. About templating  it would probably need a really heavy tripod to keep it steady the movement would probably be possible with premium components.
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erick.boileau

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« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2009, 09:40:30 am »

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Panopeeper

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« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2009, 10:49:20 am »

Quote from: Lefa66
The current camera is 5DMKII
For the case that your exposure bracketing does not exceed +-2 EV, you are overcomplicating the shooting. Your camera allows for creating the three bracketed shots in a fraction of a second:

turn on MLU, Live view, exposure bracketing and timer (for perfection, use a wired remote shutter).

You press the shutter and sh-sh-sh, before you noticed, the three shots are done with no mirror flapping in between.

As to the automation: I am pessimistic about that. My experience shows, that framing is sometimes better done manually, based on the actual scenery. >I would say yes, automation in case of hundreds of shots, but otherwise not.
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Gabor

Panopeeper

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 10:52:02 am »

Quote from: rljones
I've bought an Automate head with a PDA, but it just arrived and I've not yet used it.

http://www.thegadgetworks.com/
This system can not create correctly aligned multirow panos: the tilting obviously does not occur around the entrance pupil.
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Gabor

Wayne Fox

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2009, 06:59:08 pm »

Quote from: Panopeeper
This system can not create correctly aligned multirow panos: the tilting obviously does not occur around the entrance pupil.

Perhaps this could be corrected with a couple of adjustable brackets to reposition the lens in relationship to the unit?

  I'd like to try a solution like this for occasional pano's.  Even if was off a little, still better than doing it by hand perhaps?

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Panopeeper

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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2009, 08:56:11 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Perhaps this could be corrected with a couple of adjustable brackets to reposition the lens in relationship to the unit?
Sure, but then what remains from the tool? An automatic rotation. This can be good in very high-resolution indoor shots, but in landscaping I like to keep the framing completely under control, for

- sometimes finding useful control points is a problem, for example when a large part of the frame is sky and/or water. To make the matching easier and better, I often decide the size of overlap based on features in the frame; in other words, I don't rotate with a fixed amount,

- for most panos I am refocusing in all frames (though sometimes this costs me the pano, for the 40D with the EF-S 17-55mm often misfocuses). This requires sometimes, that I rotate to a position for focusing and then turn to the position of framing; or I switch between focus points.

However, I agree that really large panos could be shot easier with automatic rotation.
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Gabor

Thomas Krüger

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Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2009, 04:32:01 am »

The best automated pano head I have seen so far is build from Traugott Emrich http://gigapanbot.de/gigapanbot-en.htm
Examples: http://www.emrichs.de/hdview/prague.htm
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Azzo

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Re: Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2011, 10:03:13 am »

Hello,

yes I've some experiences with motorized head.
I by since few month a Clauss product : Rodeon ST head.
Very expensive I thought that it was the best solution.
I was completly wrong.
My Camera is 3.3 Kg heavy and the clauss head stop every time it try to go up.
Because of that I send back the product for guaranty support.
Then I receive a commercial offer for 1000 euro to tune that.
It was very strange because this problem happen at begin i use it.
Because it was urgent for me and Clauss do not want to make nothing without this payment.
I paid this.
After this when I receive it, I immediatly check it.
It was same !!!!!
So never by these product, the Clauss firm don't assume it's product guaranty and lie on their documentation.
Moreover after lot of discussion I receive a diagram that show that this Motor can't bring what is annouced in its commercial documention.


« Last Edit: October 07, 2011, 10:05:02 am by Azzo »
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CLAUSS

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Re: Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2011, 01:56:04 am »

- REPLY -

Mr. Jean-Pierre T., often shown up as „AZZO“ etc., uses public audience in forums, to extort us as the manufacturer of the RODEON panorama technology, by injurious falsehood. He by himself informed us literally about that by an email on Oct. 6th 2011.

Legal steps have already been initiated. Following we are informing publicly about several mandatory facts:


1) Warranty Case
Mr. T performed several drill and cutting works on his device. Within the devices suitcase we received, there has been even a sheet of sandpaper (grain size 80) laying next to the device. During our examination we had to find out, that booth precision gears had been contaminated by metal shavings inside. This caused infrequent malfunctions.
As a matter of fact, the virgin device has been injured to total loss by this inappropriate handling.
Naturally the warranty became voided by that. (Who else would hit the idea, to drill some holes in his camera body and asking for warranty afterwards?)
Nevertheless, we repaired several damages to the device on our own expenses.

2) Claimed „Hijacking“
Mr. T. decided to give the order for a charged repair of the damages on his own, without any forces or pressure. Some parts have been sent to him shortly and without charging as advance-replacements, whereas it took several weeks for their return. The warranty procedure took place absolutely correct.

3) Mechanical Capacity, Fulfilment of technical data:
In our specification, we give guarantee on the maximum torque our gears do provide, as well as on the maximum payload of our devices. We do not know any other vendor of robotic panorama heads who is publishing such specification. As far as we know, even no other VR head is able to carry and move such huge payloads. Corresponding information can be found at:
http://www.dr-clauss.de/res/FAQ/handsontorque.pdf and
http://www.dr-clauss.de/res/Downloads/productcatalog.pdf (p. 9)
It is physically necessary to reduce acceleration and speed when using high excentrical weights. Therefore, the speed has to be reduced to approximately 40%, to achieve the maximum torque.
The gears of Mr. T. have been tested and measured again after repair and they fully accomplished all specifications. The measurement diagrams have been handed out to Mr. T.

4) Our Service:
Amongst our clients, we are widely known for our first class service and support. We spent an extraordinary amount of time at our own expenses for Mr. T, among others because he decided to, instead of using original accessory parts, produce them on his own – despite his apparent inability – and because his technical insight often has been stretched to limits.

5) The „Venerability“ of Mr. T.
Several times we have been deliberately deceived. Thus, Mr. T. incorrectly declared himself as reseller and also tried to embezzle already delivered accessory parts.

All issues shown and described herein are verifiable at any time by respective correspondences, invoices, images, etc.

The panorama devices manufactured by CLAUSS are known and appreciated world-wide, and are performing reliable everyday, partially under some extreme circumstances and environments, as well as in junction with some extreme bright and huge lenses of up to 800mm native focal length.
We do always have a sympathetic ear for our clients, and gratefully receive any kind of advices and criticisms.

Such defaming procedure as done by Mr. T. is unique until now, and will not be tolerated.
To the operators of this forum, we recommend considering if they are willing to provide a public stage for such practices any longer.

Dr. Clauss Bild- und Datentechnik GmbH (CLAUSS), Executive Board
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Azzo

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Re: Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2011, 12:40:11 pm »

Hello Mr BernardLanguillier

My Rodeon head is ST.

All my say are real The company CLAUSS have worked like I describe in my previous post.
My Lawyer have a complete folder with all letter exchanged between our both company.
Something sure the Court of Justice will discuss this as soon as possible, I wish.

My Camera is really 3.3kg and motor Y can't bring it at most than 25% speed.
here the link of RODEON ST head documentation : http://www.dr-clauss.de/res/Downloads/productcatalog.pdf
If you have time, take a look, you will see that this product can bring 7 kg. that all !

Furtheremore software of CLAUSS company is so well made that even if you put Y motor speed at 25%, the head go at 100 % at the end of shooting session. So it don't solve my problem, I must help the head with my hand during every end of session .

Yes you well understand with my hand !!!!
It is why I think CLAUSS company have a big problem with the product it sell to me and moreother for the 1000 euro of guaranty that I paid more to tune this problem which is not tuned actually. And due to Torque graph and software limitation that I have seen recently it is insolvable.

In fact documentation is plenty of obliviousness, some data are marketing arguments and not reality.
They forgot real data mention.  Even if you ask them precisely before for the good solution to take.

In one of the last mail I received from Clauss company, It give me the torque graph of motor. Now everybody can see that this motor can't bring what it is anounced in documentation.
Problem is that come after I send back the Rodeon ST head and I paid about 1000 euro for tuning this.

Clauss company threaten me after the first contribution I post.
But my experience with this company is real. Contribute to forum is free, and saying this to people who ask for customer experiences is natural. So, sorry for CLAUSS company but it is my right to share it.

For people who want more details about my experience I have all evidence of my speak. I can give by personal messages.

After this post of Clauss company, in addition to deception on commodity  procedure I can add a defaming procedure because of all that 5 points are completly false, I will reply point by point to this,
For moment and because I don't have more time immediately,
I answer to the point 5. :
The product have been bought by a company that I manage since 1992. One of the status of this company is photographic material reseller and this since 1992. I can give to who want it (by personnal message) the French commerce registry which is the evidence. The Clauss company say "incorrectly declared himself as reseller" and one more time it is a lie.

To be continued...

« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 07:12:34 pm by Azzo »
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torger

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Re: Automatic Panorama Head
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2011, 08:54:44 am »

I think the best option in most cases are doing panorama by hand. If you really need gigapixel 360 panoramas for some special cause then a motorized head is good, but if you use panorama technique to make high resolution pictures of normal angle of views say 2x6 pictures to make a 100 megapixel pictures using a 20 megapixel camera ("poor man's medium format") I think manual is better.

Tripod / head vibration should not be underestimated and I am skeptical that the motorized heads do it well, especially if the equipment is a bit heavier. When doing it manually I can look at the bubble and wait out the vibration, and of course use mirror lockup. I have not yet seen any motorized pano head which shoots with mirror lockup. If one shoots panoramas for the resolution then it seems a waste to ignore vibration issues.

I use the latest and sturdiest nodal ninja pano head, forgot its name though, but it is among the sturdiest pano heads there is, but still even sturdier would not hurt. Motorized heads I've seen does not look sturdy but maybe there are exceptions.

Concerning price, normal heads that are sturdy are not cheap. I mean for a professional quality 3-way geared head one have to pay say 300-400 euro for an ok one and 800-1500 for top-of-the-line. I would expect a robotic pano head with good quality cost more than a 3-way geared head.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 09:47:57 am by torger »
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