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Author Topic: permanence of canvas with OBA's  (Read 3200 times)

pinguy

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« on: April 05, 2009, 01:32:02 pm »

I'm curious to know about the permanence of canvas using K3 inks.  I've spent hours on Wilhem's site but can't find exactly what I need.

If we accept as fact canvas media with OBA's will eventually fade or turn yellow, my question is, "how long before we start to notice it?"  Two years?  Two decades?  more?

I'm using canvas with OBA's and putting a heavy coat of Breathing Color's UV topcoat.  I use K3 inks on Epson's latest printers.  I can accept the fact the canvas may fade or turn yellow if it's after I'm dead and gone.  However, if it starts to change in a few years, I need to rethink my use of OBA's in the media I use.

Can somebody point me to where I can find this info?

Thanks in advance.
Steve
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 01:33:30 pm by pinguy »
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Wayne Fox

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2009, 02:35:05 pm »

Quote from: pinguy
I'm curious to know about the permanence of canvas using K3 inks.  I've spent hours on Wilhem's site but can't find exactly what I need.

If we accept as fact canvas media with OBA's will eventually fade or turn yellow, my question is, "how long before we start to notice it?"  Two years?  Two decades?  more?

I'm using canvas with OBA's and putting a heavy coat of Breathing Color's UV topcoat.  I use K3 inks on Epson's latest printers.  I can accept the fact the canvas may fade or turn yellow if it's after I'm dead and gone.  However, if it starts to change in a few years, I need to rethink my use of OBA's in the media I use.

Can somebody point me to where I can find this info?

Thanks in advance.
Steve

Not sure how quick the OBA's quick working, most likely much longer than 2 years.  If you are using a UV topcoat, I believe that already eliminates some of the effect of the OBA's.  Just curious which canvas you are using.  Breathing Color Chromata White canvas does not contain OBA's.  I've been testing it and pretty pleased with the results.

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pinguy

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2009, 02:42:40 pm »

Quote from: Wayne Fox
Not sure how quick the OBA's quick working, most likely much longer than 2 years.  If you are using a UV topcoat, I believe that already eliminates some of the effect of the OBA's.  Just curious which canvas you are using.  Breathing Color Chromata White canvas does not contain OBA's.  I've been testing it and pretty pleased with the results.
Wayne, I'm using canvas with OBA's from LexJet, Breathing Color and other suppliers.

I've read on this forum and elsewhere that OBA's in the Gesso will react differently from OBA's in the inkjet receptive layer.  I'm not trying to get an absolute number based on my canvas media and topcoat spray.  I'm just trying to figure-out if it's something I need to worry about in the near-term.

Thanks,
Steve
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 02:43:26 pm by pinguy »
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bill t.

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2009, 07:25:00 pm »

Quote from: pinguy
If we accept as fact canvas media with OBA's will eventually fade or turn yellow, my question is, "how long before we start to notice it?"  Two years?  Two decades?  more?
If "notice it" is your criteria, then the answer is "probably never."  A piece of art on the wall simply becomes part of the decor after the first few weeks.  If any slow, creeping yellowing occurs is just accepted as the inexorable work of the Arrow of Time.  Drapes fade, wall paint fades, the carpet fades, the sofa fades, the picture fades.  A little yellowing doesn't hurt anything, truth be known.  I've had several Epson Enhanced Matte prints on the wall for a few year now, darned if I could tell you looking at the image whether or not they have faded, although the word on the street is that they must have.

To wit an acquaintance has the the classic Maxfield Parrish "Dawn" print on his wall, which his family bought fresh when he was born in 1935 or so.  It is just incredibly faded, pretty much nothing but cyan and green remain.  Even the frame is faded.  Nevertheless it is simply part of the decor, accepted as it is and not likely to be removed any time soon.  I can only hope for similar tolerance from the progeny of my patrons.
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pinguy

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2009, 07:42:17 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
If "notice it" is your criteria, then the answer is "probably never."  A piece of art on the wall simply becomes part of the decor after the first few weeks.  If any slow, creeping yellowing occurs is just accepted as the inexorable work of the Arrow of Time.  Drapes fade, wall paint fades, the carpet fades, the sofa fades, the picture fades.  A little yellowing doesn't hurt anything, truth be known.  I've had several Epson Enhanced Matte prints on the wall for a few year now, darned if I could tell you looking at the image whether or not they have faded, although the word on the street is that they must have.

To wit an acquaintance has the the classic Maxfield Parrish "Dawn" print on his wall, which his family bought fresh when he was born in 1935 or so.  It is just incredibly faded, pretty much nothing but cyan and green remain.  Even the frame is faded.  Nevertheless it is simply part of the decor, accepted as it is and not likely to be removed any time soon.  I can only hope for similar tolerance from the progeny of my patrons.


Thanks Bill.  I found this article on the Hahnemule site that claims their papers with a high content of OBA's were tested at a lab in Germany and they remained 'stable' for 20 - 50 years.  http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/1595/ha...oba-8217-s.html

I don't believe I need to worry about.  I'm just looking for some testing data that will backup my feeling.  I would also like to have testing data that I can show customers - if the question comes up.

Steve.
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jdoyle1713

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2009, 08:47:27 am »

Quote from: pinguy
Thanks Bill.  I found this article on the Hahnemule site that claims their papers with a high content of OBA's were tested at a lab in Germany and they remained 'stable' for 20 - 50 years.  http://www.hahnemuehle.com/site/us/1595/ha...oba-8217-s.html

I don't believe I need to worry about.  I'm just looking for some testing data that will backup my feeling.  I would also like to have testing data that I can show customers - if the question comes up.

Steve.


Steve

If you call or email Breathing color they will have some test results for you on there product. If I recall correctly they where in the process of having Henry test it. I would "Bet" they dont make the juice so maybe they have some testing from the actual manufacture

Cheers
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Wayne Fox

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2009, 03:42:16 pm »

Quote from: pinguy
Wayne, I'm using canvas with OBA's from LexJet, Breathing Color and other suppliers.

I've read on this forum and elsewhere that OBA's in the Gesso will react differently from OBA's in the inkjet receptive layer.  I'm not trying to get an absolute number based on my canvas media and topcoat spray.  I'm just trying to figure-out if it's something I need to worry about in the near-term.

Thanks,
Steve

Here's a link regarding Breathing Colors OBA free Chromata White canvas.  

http://www.breathingcolor.com/bc/catalog/i...WhiteCanvas.pdf


The other canvas they make, to quote them,

"800M Canvas is ideal for short-term photography and art reproduction (giclee printing), indoor signage, backdrops and murals. It is manufactured with large amounts of Optical Brightener Additives which give it an extraordinary white point, wide color gamut and high Dmax value. "

So if you are testing this canvas, key points are "short-term" and "large amounts of OBA".  


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printmaker

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2009, 01:47:37 pm »

Quote from: pinguy
I'm curious to know about the permanence of canvas using K3 inks.  I've spent hours on Wilhem's site but can't find exactly what I need.

If we accept as fact canvas media with OBA's will eventually fade or turn yellow, my question is, "how long before we start to notice it?"  Two years?  Two decades?  more?

I'm using canvas with OBA's and putting a heavy coat of Breathing Color's UV topcoat.  I use K3 inks on Epson's latest printers.  I can accept the fact the canvas may fade or turn yellow if it's after I'm dead and gone.  However, if it starts to change in a few years, I need to rethink my use of OBA's in the media I use.

Can somebody point me to where I can find this info?


Thanks in advance.
Steve

You don't need to be Wilhelm to conduct your own testing on a substrate, put it out in the sun either in a window or just directly exposed outdoors for 8hrs a day. Use a spectro to record changes after each session. Changes will occur within a few days to a week, NOT years.

UV top coating does little to "protect" against this change. It's like you wearing sunscreen at the beach for 8hrs... You are still getting exposure and are likely to end up burnt. I have tried many of these UV coatings and the result is the same. A piece with a top coat is spared little more than those without.

But hey, don't take my word for it... Just do it youself.
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pinguy

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2009, 03:07:29 pm »

Quote from: printmaker
You don't need to be Wilhelm to conduct your own testing on a substrate, put it out in the sun either in a window or just directly exposed outdoors for 8hrs a day. Use a spectro to record changes after each session. Changes will occur within a few days to a week, NOT years.

UV top coating does little to "protect" against this change. It's like you wearing sunscreen at the beach for 8hrs... You are still getting exposure and are likely to end up burnt. I have tried many of these UV coatings and the result is the same. A piece with a top coat is spared little more than those without.

But hey, don't take my word for it... Just do it youself.

I have had a print in the sun for the past 22 months with virtually no change.  At least, no noticeable change.  

However, I'm not really interested in how fast a canvas will fade in the sun. I'm more interested in how fast it will fade under 'normal' conditions such as on a wall inside a home.

thanks,
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Wayne Fox

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2009, 07:06:53 pm »

Quote from: printmaker
You don't need to be Wilhelm to conduct your own testing on a substrate, put it out in the sun either in a window or just directly exposed outdoors for 8hrs a day. Use a spectro to record changes after each session. Changes will occur within a few days to a week, NOT years.

UV top coating does little to "protect" against this change. It's like you wearing sunscreen at the beach for 8hrs... You are still getting exposure and are likely to end up burnt. I have tried many of these UV coatings and the result is the same. A piece with a top coat is spared little more than those without.

But hey, don't take my word for it... Just do it youself.

It seems the only way this "sun" test would provide any useful information is to do it simultaneously with a product that has a "known" permanence.  Using the sun is a form of an accelerated aging test, just not as controlled and measurable as standardized tests.  Of course these tests are still somewhat theoretical ... it could be that "accelerated" aging tests also somewhat accelerate aging anyway, and images not subjected to such extremes will actually age much slower. If you use the sun and it fades in 2 months, is that good or bad? Is the test at the equator or in Alaska ... considerably different circumstances.  Could be 2 months is the equivalent of a 100 year rating under controlled tests such as Wilhelms.  Perhaps if you test a paper and ink combination that has some supported research at the same time, you can tell if it fades faster or slower ... at least you have a base for making a comparison.

One thing I've always felt is the pigments in the ink are what actually fade.  While the medium itself can certainly contribute to fading more rapidly, any well made medium should still perform very similarly.  A well made canvas which perhaps hasn't been tested may actually have the same ink receptor coat as a well made paper that has.  Unless there is a problem with the canvas itself the canvas should perform very similarly to the paper, and in general the ink set itself should perform similarly on most media that is at least somewhat archival in properties.

As far as the ability of a coating to absorb UV and slow fading, I believe there is some evidence that it does make a difference.  part of the reason however isn't due to absorbing UV, but also protecting the pigments from various gases which over time can be damaging as well.  Currently there is some dispute over which gases should be tested, and I've read that some even believe Wilhelm needs to consider measuring some additional gases and their affect.  There is some discussion that for long term fading, gases may be the more damaging component.

My comment on the UV absorbing coat was more about the UV not being able to excite the OBA's in print.  If you absorb all of the UV light before it reaches the OBA's, would a reaction occur, or would enough UV light fail to hit the image to excite the OBA's, so the modification of UV light to visible light doesn't happen.  I've never tested this with coatings or with glass for that matter, just read about it.  Some comment that if you frame a print under high quality glass the OBA's aren't apparent, so the print won't actually "yellow" over time since you can't see the effect of the OBA's.  Just some things I've read and seem logical ... guess I should actually try it sometime and see for myself.
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bill t.

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« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2009, 08:53:48 pm »

Speaking of indoor environments...  I have twice observed sudden mass extinctions of unprotected prints just pinned up on the wall.  These have occurred in the first week of June exactly in sync with the startup of the swamp cooler system here in normally dry-as-a-bone New Mexico.  When the indoor humidity goes from zip to pretty high.  The changes were very dramatic, huge amounts of fading over just a few days on prints that saw mostly tungsten light.  I think the sudden re-hydration of the surface allowed reactions that had been put on hold to go forward again, like stepping outside the gate at Shangri-La.

We like to think all we need to control is the light, maybe because it's not that hard and is somewhat within our control.  But no light source ever faded a print as fast as my swamp cooler.

Now those prints were all from the original dye inked 17" Epson 1700, have not seen this with any pigment based prints.  But nevertheless, this memory leads me to coat my canvases well and mount them rather than stretch them.
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Ernst Dinkla

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« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2009, 06:18:13 am »

Quote from: bill t.
Speaking of indoor environments...  I have twice observed sudden mass extinctions of unprotected prints just pinned up on the wall.  These have occurred in the first week of June exactly in sync with the startup of the swamp cooler system here in normally dry-as-a-bone New Mexico.  When the indoor humidity goes from zip to pretty high.  The changes were very dramatic, huge amounts of fading over just a few days on prints that saw mostly tungsten light.  I think the sudden re-hydration of the surface allowed reactions that had been put on hold to go forward again, like stepping outside the gate at Shangri-La.

We like to think all we need to control is the light, maybe because it's not that hard and is somewhat within our control.  But no light source ever faded a print as fast as my swamp cooler.

Now those prints were all from the original dye inked 17" Epson 1700, have not seen this with any pigment based prints.  But nevertheless, this memory leads me to coat my canvases well and mount them rather than stretch them.

Humidity is another factor. It isn't overlooked in Wilhelm's testing, he increased the value to 60% in the test chambers while ISO standard/discussed standard said 50% then. Testing the samples with lighting systems that keep the temperature low in the patches themselves makes it possible to keep the humidity at that level in the samples too. That is much more difficult in Xenon chambers and with the Sun as the light source. Dye is more affected than (encapsulated) pigment by the humidity. The same for gas fading like Ozon. RC paper gives more protection too in both cases. Gelatine coated papers will reduce the effect for dye inks if compared to dye inks on micro ceramic coatings.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

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MHMG

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permanence of canvas with OBA's
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2009, 08:19:32 am »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
Testing the samples with lighting systems that keep the temperature low in the patches themselves makes it possible to keep the humidity at that level in the samples too. That is much more difficult in Xenon chambers and with the Sun as the light source.

met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html


Agreed.  I haven't seen a a commercially available Xenon test unit yet that is truly suitable for testing delicate materials like prints and photographs which is why I would not use them even if I could afford their steep price tags.  Xenon units are fine for testing products intended for outdoor use (house and auto paint on metal or wood, outdoor signage, etc) where severe weathering cycles are part of the normal product use, but they totally fail to provide adequate temperature and moisture control at the sample plane for delicate materials like paintings and photographs. Not only does one encounter strong sample desiccation during the light cycle, but direct condensation often occurs as this type of equipment cycles through a dark (lamp-off) cycle. The best Xenon source I've seen to date is a "standalone" Xenon burner recently prototyped by Atlas (not entirely sure if it ever made it into full production). With a standalone Xenon lamp, one then needs to construct an environmentally controlled purpose-built room around it and allow the samples to be backed off to a further distance and lower light intensity than any of the currently available closed-cabinet type Xenon units allow. Cost of such a purpose-built Xenon set up is well over $100K, and testing capacity will be limited.  Operating and maintenance costs are also very high.  In AaI&A subscriber dollars, I'd need over 1500 new professional members just to cover the capital costs of one standalone unit. I mention the costs not to whine or complain, but just to let people know that the image permanence info they'd like to see on all of these new printer/ink/paper combinations is not trivial to obtain.  Somebody pays for the capital equipment and labor intensive costs somehow, whether in a subscription-based consumer-reports type of business model, or in a manufacturer-sponsored business model where all R&D costs get factored into the sales prices.

Full spectrum high CRI flourescent lamps are the only sensible light fade testing alternative at this time. They are inexpensive to build, easy to provide good environmental control, plus they are a "greener solution" in terms of energy consumption per test.

best regards,

Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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