Mounting Canvas on Canvas?!

[Longbeach]

I am totally new to canvas printing/mounting but I wonder ... provided you purchase a good quality canvas on stretcher bars, can you secure a canvas print over the front using spray adhesive in order to avoid having to stretch the canvas? If the surface dimensions of the print are slightly smaller than that of the wooden frame, you would then have a thin margin which could be painted along with the sides using acrylic paint (say, black) and presto - a pseudo gallery wrap.
This would save some time and might look just as good. Would this work?

[bill t.]

Uh, NO!  What a mess that would be.

Much easier than stretching is to mount your canvas on Gatorfoam with Miracle Muck.  IMHO.

Cut the Gator a little smaller than your canvas, except at one of the long sides leave about 1 to 2 inches of Gator exposed.  Flatten the canvas over the Gator, run your hands over it to even out the fabric.  Tape down the full length of side of the canvas over the exposed Gator, I like blue masking tape for this.  From the other end roll up the canvas on a tube, fairly tight.  As you roll it up, carefully check for grit on the canvas that would put a bump in your glued down canvas.  Likewise wipe down the Gator with a slightly moist paper towel to remove any grit there.  With a 9", thin (1/8') foam roller spread Miracle Muck over the canvas, use about 1/2oz of Muck per square foot...measure it out in a plastic cup before starting, then pour it out over the Gator in a sort of zigzag pattern.   Try to take no more than 2 minutes to spread out the Muck, don't worry it's easy, don't neglect the edges.  Then roll the canvas onto the wet Gator.  Put a cotton glove on one hand and smooth it out.  This just works so good, I love it.

Your canvas should be slightly larger than the Gator to prevent picking up excess glue from the edges onto the glove and spreading that over your print.  With 1/2oz per sq foot that probably won't happen, but have a wad of clean, wet paper towel available to immediately wipe the glue off your print if it does.

Oh, the mounted print will at first curve center-up about 1 to 2 inches, and you will think, OH S**T.  Don't worry after about 6 hours it will flatten out to perfection.  Really, just take a few deep breaths and wait it out.  I promise.  If you use way too muck Muck, it will curve up even more, but will still flatten out.  HOWEVER, if you use plain old foam core, you will get a curve in the other direction that will never-ever flatten, don't even consider regular foam core, you must only use Gatorfoam.  At $50 per 4x8 sheet.  I mount prints up to 30x80 with 3/16" Gator, works great!

CAUTION...your canvas should have at least one good coat of GlamourII, Clearshield or whatever before mounting, that's so you can fiercely rub down the print with your cotton-gloved hand without messing up the image.  You can continue to coat mounted canvas after about 8 hours when the Muck is dry.

If a member of the Archivalist Guild should knock on your door, just point to the ceiling.  When he looks up, kick him in the groin.

Many thanks to Dr. Ward for his inspiration on this technique.

EDIT...tape the gator down to the work surface before spreading the Muck, otherwise it will slip & slide while you spread the highly viscous Muck.  If you start with a dry roller, spread out an additional 2 ounces of Muck somewhere on the Gator to account for what the roller will soak up.

Miracle Muck can be bought from...
http://raphaelstoday.com/miraclemuck.aspx
tell Jan that Bill sent you.

[Longbeach]

Thanks for the detailed description on Gatorfoam and Miracle Muck. I may just try it. But I don't understand what exactly would be messy or difficult about using adhesive spray to stick a canvas print on top of a blank canvas on stretcher bars to cut down on time.  Maybe it's obvious to those of you who have experience mounting canvas. If so, would be grateful for an explanation.

[bill t.]

Canvas is a stretchy, willful, contrary, headstrong material prone to shrinking, expanding, etc.  You never know quite what it's going to do dimensionally.  Applying a piece of flacid canvas to another piece of stretched canvas would very likely lead to wrinkles and buckling as each piece responded in its own way to changes in humidity and temperature.  That's what I think, and I am only wrong about stuff like this about 40% of the time.

[Colorwave]

CAUTION...your canvas should have at least one good coat of GlamourII, Clearshield or whatever before mounting, that's so you can fiercely rub down the print with your cotton-gloved hand without messing up the image.  You can continue to coat mounted canvas after about 8 hours when the Muck is dry.

If a member of the Archivalist Guild should knock on your door, just point to the ceiling.  When he looks up, kick him in the groin.

Bill-
I'm curious if cost effectiveness or final results are behind your choice of Miracle Muck as an adhesive?  Obviously, the MM is working for you, but since it is a type of PVA glue and low pH, I'd feel better if I could use something more pH neutral.  Have you tried using Glamour II or another thicker acrylic as an adhesive.  I haven't yet, but know that Breathing Color says their product can be used that way, in addition to using it as a topcoat.  At over 3 times the cost, though, I'd hate to find out that it had more problems as an adhesive than your favorite Muck.  Ever try it for that?

[enduser]

Go to this site and look at Kapa board.
http://www.alcankapa.com/alcan/acsites.nsf...3&type=.htm

We use it in 10mm thicknesses for mounting canvas prints and can offer them at a better price to customers due to less labor in mounting, rather than stretching, (which we also do).  We often mount around 30" x 24" images.  We use 3M Super 77 Multi Purpose Spray Adhesive, but you must spray both sides.  Wait 2 to 3 minutes before bringing the surfaces together.  The adhesion is good enough that trying to separate the image from the board after a day, results in the board tearing apart, rather than the image coming away.

So far as alignment is concerned, just rough cut a piece of board a bit larger all round.  When stuck down, trim the edges with a sliding knife such as the Condex by Martor,
http://www.martor.com/index.php?id=401&...cache=1&L=0         ( You'll have to do a search on their site for "Condex")

After 6 months and many days of heat here in Australia, many boards with image are still dead flat and no shrinkage or dimensional change is evident.

The only downside is you appear to have to buy a lot of board, single sheets are not available due to warehouse damage if a box of them is opened.  We managed to get a single sheet to tryout by going to a graphic art studio where Kappa is used a lot.  They sold us a single sheet to get us started.

To hang, just get foam board hangers from any framing shop and use nylon blind cord.

Hope this helps someone.

[bill t.]

Bill-
I'm curious if cost effectiveness or final results are behind your choice of Miracle Muck as an adhesive?  Obviously, the MM is working for you, but since it is a type of PVA glue and low pH, I'd feel better if I could use something more pH neutral.  Have you tried using Glamour II or another thicker acrylic as an adhesive.  I haven't yet, but know that Breathing Color says their product can be used that way, in addition to using it as a topcoat.  At over 3 times the cost, though, I'd hate to find out that it had more problems as an adhesive than your favorite Muck.  Ever try it for that?

Yes, I have tried GII as an adhesive, but only with regular foam core, not Gatorfoam.  There were two issues for me, extremely fast drying and an extremely curved result.  The foam core boards curved so severely concave they could not be used.  It is possible GII would work fine with Gatorfoam, never tried it.  But GII is 4 times the cost of Muck.

When working on museum exhibits in the 60' and 70's I mounted dozens of mural sized paper photographic prints on Masonite using PVA glue, mainly the classic white glue.  I still have several of those pieces.  Some are yellowed from poor fixing and washing, same as some unmounted prints from that time.  But 40 years later all are still down flat with no suggestion of glue related problems or discoloration from the Masonite.  A few pieces that were wrapped around the edge of the Masonite have slightly come up on the 1" strips wrapped around the back, that's all.  The ones that were trimmed flush have no problems.  If Masonite wasn't so heavy, that's what I'd be using today.  So I'm betting my beloved Muck will hold up just as well.  I doubt if for instance a stretched canvas would be in as good a shape another 40 years down the road.

OTOH, smaller prints that were mounted with transfer adhesive at the same time are now in dismal shape...peeling, oozing crud around the edges, bubbling, total ugliness.  Those were mounted with the old 3M or Scotch "sticky-back" adhesives that came in rolls.  It only took a few years for that stuff to start.

[chez]

For people who provide both a stretched version of their photos as well as a mounted version, how does the customer percieve the quality of each? Does the customer feel a stretched canvas photo to be of higher quality and is willing to pay more for this, or do they not really care. I am about to offer canvas prints and am trying to decide on which method of mounting to offer.

[bill t.]

For people who provide both a stretched version of their photos as well as a mounted version, how does the customer percieve the quality of each? Does the customer feel a stretched canvas photo to be of higher quality and is willing to pay more for this, or do they not really care. I am about to offer canvas prints and am trying to decide on which method of mounting to offer.

Well a gallery wrap is always safe.  Within your customer's synapses it will resonate with pre-conceived ideas about what he's already seen with the "art" label on it.  And of course a gallery wrap can be just hung directly on the wall, that can be a very useful selling point.

Yeah, I wouldn't offer a Gator mounted canvas for sale as a print to the public, it looks too rough-edged somehow.  OTOH, a print applied to Dibond or the new Alcan e-bond material with a nicely finished edge might fly pretty well in the old print bin.  I am starting to sell quite a few prints through framers, now those guys love to get Gator mounted prints since many can't easily mount stuff bigger than 60".  I have more than once heard a framer grumble about problems with sagging stretched canvas, which leads back to their doorstep with customer complaints.  They kinda like the hard mounting from that point of view as well.

I mostly offer only framed pieces for sale to the public, so the gallery wrap thing doesn't do me any good in that regard.  I get the same synaptic art-resonance from my relatively classic framing styles.  Another issue is that I can Muck down about 4 or more humongous prints per hour, which is a whole lot faster than wrapping.  And a Gatorized print can be mounted in a frame with Fletcher points in about 30 seconds, versus 20 minutes of fooling around with nails or offset brackets and screws with a wrapped canvas.

[bill t.]

While on this subject, it should be noted that there are many other types of glues that can be used to adhere canvas to a substrate.  The company Lascaux makes many different very expensive glues that meet much higher archival standards than Miracle Muck.  Some people use so-called animal glues.  I haven't used any of these materials, but if you worry a lot about pH and such you should look into these other glues.

[rmyers]

Just did this tonight for the first time.  Worked like a dream.  Thanks for the step by step instructions.  The Gator certainly bowed up.  I am counting on the flattening to happen later.  Looks great otherwise. 

Missed the tape the Gator down part.  Will use it next time as does tend to slide around.

Uh, NO!  What a mess that would be.

Much easier than stretching is to mount your canvas on Gatorfoam with Miracle Muck.  IMHO.

Cut the Gator a little smaller than your canvas, except at one of the long sides leave about 1 to 2 inches of Gator exposed.  Flatten the canvas over the Gator, run your hands over it to even out the fabric.  Tape down the full length of side of the canvas over the exposed Gator, I like blue masking tape for this.  From the other end roll up the canvas on a tube, fairly tight.  As you roll it up, carefully check for grit on the canvas that would put a bump in your glued down canvas.  Likewise wipe down the Gator with a slightly moist paper towel to remove any grit there.  With a 9", thin (1/8') foam roller spread Miracle Muck over the canvas, use about 1/2oz of Muck per square foot...measure it out in a plastic cup before starting, then pour it out over the Gator in a sort of zigzag pattern.   Try to take no more than 2 minutes to spread out the Muck, don't worry it's easy, don't neglect the edges.  Then roll the canvas onto the wet Gator.  Put a cotton glove on one hand and smooth it out.  This just works so good, I love it.

Your canvas should be slightly larger than the Gator to prevent picking up excess glue from the edges onto the glove and spreading that over your print.  With 1/2oz per sq foot that probably won't happen, but have a wad of clean, wet paper towel available to immediately wipe the glue off your print if it does.

Oh, the mounted print will at first curve center-up about 1 to 2 inches, and you will think, OH S**T.  Don't worry after about 6 hours it will flatten out to perfection.  Really, just take a few deep breaths and wait it out.  I promise.  If you use way too muck Muck, it will curve up even more, but will still flatten out.  HOWEVER, if you use plain old foam core, you will get a curve in the other direction that will never-ever flatten, don't even consider regular foam core, you must only use Gatorfoam.  At $50 per 4x8 sheet.  I mount prints up to 30x80 with 3/16" Gator, works great!

CAUTION...your canvas should have at least one good coat of GlamourII, Clearshield or whatever before mounting, that's so you can fiercely rub down the print with your cotton-gloved hand without messing up the image.  You can continue to coat mounted canvas after about 8 hours when the Muck is dry.

If a member of the Archivalist Guild should knock on your door, just point to the ceiling.  When he looks up, kick him in the groin.

Many thanks to Dr. Ward for his inspiration on this technique.

EDIT...tape the gator down to the work surface before spreading the Muck, otherwise it will slip & slide while you spread the highly viscous Muck.  If you start with a dry roller, spread out an additional 2 ounces of Muck somewhere on the Gator to account for what the roller will soak up.

Miracle Muck can be bought from...
http://raphaelstoday.com/miraclemuck.aspx
tell Jan that Bill sent you.

[davidh202]

While you can certainly paint the sides or even leave them white, the principle concept of gallery wraps is to usually extend the image around the sides for a dimentional appearance. If you intend to flush mount to a board or are putting the mounted canvas in a frame you can certainly use Bill's method, but you don't get the depth that way.  It really depends on the 'look' your after.

Stretching canvas is really simple... even a caveman can do it.
with a few proper tools and supplies.And I'm not talking about fancy expensive stretching machines
unless you doing a substantial volume daily.