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eronald

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« Reply #60 on: April 05, 2009, 09:51:35 am »

C1 Pro is too expensive. It's "worth" $200 at best, and $50 upgrades, and $500 is just too much in these times of a falling economy - frankly i you had a choice as a young hungry man between a used 5D and C1 and Photoshop, which would you get ?

And retouchers use ACR because it's already part of PS so they've paid for it. Plus it's a familiar interface. Give me a choice, and I too would use ACR every day - in fact I keep relapsing until I notice the file quality, or rather the lack of. I'm sure Adobe will end up making a really good converter out of ACR. It's just frustrating watching them get there, when Raw Developer got there with one programmer.

Edmund



Quote from: ziocan
Of course we all prefer to be young and beautiful rather than old an ugly and I'm not hesitating one sec to believe that any retoucher prefer to begin working with a good file rather than a bad one.
We should also ask why the majority of retouchers use Adobe raw converters. Considering that C1 is compatible with most of the cameras that is worth using in the professional world, they should be using C1 instead, but it is not happening. that is a hint that C1 is not exactly a must..

It is undeniable that the speed of generating the web gallery in C1 is outstanding. but going through a FTP software and having only one option as web layout, it is not exactly an elegant solution for a software that is priced above all competitors. If I may.
Again lack of decent printing features, slideshow pdf generator and EXIF editor, make it hardly "la creme de la creme".

I have c1 pro and I would be very happy if it had those features for the price I paid.
All the features that some of my colleges seems happy about, IMO does not justify a price higher than competition, considering what else is lacking.
Of course, I should not even mention the price difference, after all it does not even buy a round of drinks at the lounge....
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 09:55:29 am by eronald »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #61 on: April 05, 2009, 10:54:22 am »

Quote from: eronald
C1 Pro is too expensive. It's "worth" $200 at best, and $50 upgrades, and $500 is just too much in these times of a falling economy - frankly i you had a choice as a young hungry man between a used 5D and C1 and Photoshop, which would you get ?

Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 10:55:18 am by Jack Flesher »
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Snook

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« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2009, 11:02:59 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,

I agree here..
NOTHING comes close to C-1 for anything I have. Been using it for many years now.
I tried LR and others but they just do not give me the same output. ACR and LR look like crap when I process my P30 files!!
My Canon and P30 files ALWAYS go through C-1 unless I am trying some thing out real quick.

Snook
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eronald

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« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2009, 11:09:23 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Where do you come up with this emotional pricing nonsense Edmund?   Reality is what it is -- if you don't like the price, don't buy the product!  Simple, end of subject.  For me, knowing what C1 can do for every file I've run through it, I'll say that both emotionally and productivity-wise it's worth twice what I paid for it.

,

I agree 120% Jack. You have made so much money from C1 that it's well worth that price to YOU which is chicken feed, so every one else should pay what you can afford.

In fact I'll see you and raise you. I assume you gross at least $500K a year, as you are a star pro based in the US. Now all your images are retouched with our indispensable Photoshop, so obviously Adobe should be entitled to at least 10% of your gross sales. You should, productivity-wise, be paying at least $50K to Adobe every year. At least. And of course every other working pro should be expected to pay the same $50K because if it's worth it to you, why should Adobe settle for less from someone else?

BTW Jack, I have a Phase back, which is how come I got to C1 in the first place, and I do agree it's very good. I Just think they should sell it cheaper, so as to sell more of them. Raw Developer is priced right

Edmund
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:14:20 am by eronald »
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eronald

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« Reply #64 on: April 05, 2009, 11:11:59 am »

Quote from: Snook
I agree here..
NOTHING comes close to C-1 for anything I have. Been using it for many years now.
I tried LR and others but they just do not give me the same output. ACR and LR look like crap when I process my P30 files!!
My Canon and P30 files ALWAYS go through C-1 unless I am trying some thing out real quick.

Snook

I would be very disturbed if I were Adobe, reading this. How is it possible that a multi-billion dollar corporation be marketing expensive software that "looks like cr*p" ? Clearly you cannot know anything about photography.  
Edmund
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:15:24 am by eronald »
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #65 on: April 05, 2009, 11:32:49 am »

Quote from: eronald
I would be very disturbed if I were Adobe, reading this. How is it possible that a multi-billion dollar corporation be marketing expensive software that "looks like cr*p" ? Clearly you cannot know anything about photography.  
Edmund

Edmund:  Reading your last few posts, it sounds like 1) you have your nose up Adobe's arse to the point of grudge so must have something at stake there -- oh that's right, you sell profiles for their software, don't you?    2) It is perhaps YOU that knows nothing about raw processing given the nonsense you are posting.  

And FTR, I have zero connection to Phase One other than having purchased a few of their products.  I am not even on their beta team.

Cheers,
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:38:47 am by Jack Flesher »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #66 on: April 05, 2009, 11:36:32 am »

Quote from: Snook
LR (...) just do not give me the same output.
The input as well. Starting with C1 one see something that definitely reminds of a "photograph". Starting with ACR everything is in odd colours, washy, midtone accentuated... and it just looks "digital". Where is the fun in that?

The limited colour management options in ACR are downgrading ACR. The colour management options in C1 and the color editor alone are worth the money.
Beside this Photoshop/ACR/LR can't take effect of multicores (at least not yet). C1 utilizes them all (though scrolling though thumbnails in C1 V4 is still slow. Much too slow).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:37:45 am by tho_mas »
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eronald

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« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2009, 11:52:40 am »

I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.

If C1 can now deal with Tiff or Jpeg images, then I expect retouchers may move their images into C1 just for skin color edits, it's that good.

I think the Photoshop franchise got fossilized somewhere around Photoshop 7 or CS  and has started missing out on technology improvements. Good quality Raw conversion, more subtle color selection and editing tools, cutting-edge noise reduction, focus/sharpness restoration, and high-quality uprezzing are all features which photographers would expect of the upgrades, and which are technologically possible as evidenced by both the competition and existing plugins (RD, C1, Focus Blade, Noise Ninja, Neat Image, Genuine Fractals). At the very least Adobe could simply buy out a few of the plugins and bundle them.  

I think that now is indeed the time to holler, since NOW is the moment when the CS5 feature list is being written. And Adobe do listen carefully.

Edmund



Quote from: tho_mas
The input as well. Starting with C1 one see something that definitely reminds of a "photograph". Starting with ACR everything is in odd colours, washy, midtone accentuated... and it just looks "digital". Where is the fun in that?

The limited colour management options in ACR are downgrading ACR. The colour management options in C1 and the color editor alone are worth the money.
Beside this Photoshop/ACR/LR can't take effect of multicores (at least not yet). C1 utilizes them all (though scrolling though thumbnails in C1 V4 is still slow. Much too slow).
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 11:57:31 am by eronald »
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bcooter

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« Reply #68 on: April 05, 2009, 12:30:50 pm »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
I nuked LR off my system.


It's rare if you find a retoucher that is versed in anything but Photoshop, ARC and Bridge.

In fact most retouchers, if they do convert a raw file, don't really attempt to  output complete color and tone from conversion, but rather do it in photoshop with layers, masks etc., etc.

It's rare if you find a working digital tech that is well versed in anything but C-1 3 point something, or LC11.  A few know lightroom so they can import to a hot folder  a few know flexcolor or phocus if they have a specific client that uses hasselblad,, but other than that 3.7 and LC11 are probably the two most used tethering softwares because they are stable and the phase and leaf backs are the two most rented products.  

Actually though most people find it limited, if your shooting with a Canon and need to tether, EOS utility is very easy and stable and best of all it's free.

Once again, this forum is somewhat myopic on the views digital as it's users do experiment with all forms of processors, cameras, lenses, etc., and look at everything micro detail, but this is a very small portion of the real photographic world, at least the photographic world that produces photography for commerce.

As far as comparing C-1 to lightroom, they both can have a place.  C-1 does process well and in some respects it's fill functions are much more gentle than Lightroom, though it's overall usability and interface is more difficult and a steeper learning curve.  

I rarely process in lightroom, but when not shooting use lightroom frequently to convert retouched tiff's down to different jpegs for presentations, sizes, color space etc. and there are some times that it's various channel color corrections are nice to fine tune an image.

I personally think that C-1 is overpriced next to Lightroom, but it's not my or anyone's decision to decide what a company charges.  Then again when I purchased my two C-1 licensees, I didn't throw away Lightroom 1 or 2, just like I wouldn't throw away a P30+ when I bought a 1ds3, even if I use it less than I did before.

What's the point of throwing away a functioning tool?

This isn't a religion, it's just using tools to make a photograph and there are no absolutes as to which one is best for everyone.


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bcooter

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« Reply #69 on: April 05, 2009, 12:43:01 pm »

Quote from: eronald
I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.
........................

 NOW is the moment when the CS5 feature list is being written. And Adobe do listen carefully.

Edmund


I doubt if Adobe thinks C-1 or any converter is a competitor to lightroom or photoshop.  Could be wrong, but I doubt if they worry about this too much.

Adobe has always had a history of allowing third part plug ins to enhance any issue with their products and probably is one of the reason they are the standard of the industry.

Still, it would be nice if the defaults on Adobes two converters were a lot closer to the defaults from the makers software.  At least there would be an even starting point.

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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #70 on: April 05, 2009, 01:43:25 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
What's the point of throwing away a functioning tool?

Speaking for myself...  because I did not like the program from the start and all of the functionality I ever used in it is present in ACR/CS4.  That said, I should clarify that I only nuked it from my laptop as I like to keep that machine lean and mean, and only removed the launch icon from my desktop's dock; the program itself is still in there somewhere
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pss

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« Reply #71 on: April 05, 2009, 01:52:06 pm »

i wish i could use C1 as the one software...but it is a very capable raw converter...with other functions....
i own and have used C1, LR for years and now use aperture exclusively....
i agree with most people here, the LR/ACR conversions just don't do it for me....
but there is so much more to all this....when i worked and shot into C1 years ago, i had a workflow that included 3 programs....now it is down to 1 that i never have to leave and i can get the files where they need to go in a fraction of the time....that is what counts....
i might look at C1 conversions or even LR for problem files or if i just can't get that look i want, but even in that case, everything goes out from aperture first....
yes, i am dying for v3.0 with tethered shooting for all cameras and yes there are some major features missing....but just the amount of time aperture saves me by providing any raw file in the database as jpeg in any application through the finder without even opening aperture? priceless...the system wide integration is amazing....

i have said this before, i really wish phase would give up on C1 as a standalone version and provide it as a tethering/conversion plug in for LR and aperture....but i guess neither adobe or apple would want that either...
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Colorwave

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« Reply #72 on: April 05, 2009, 02:15:18 pm »

Quote from: eronald
I agree, the color editor (in C1 Pro only)  is better than anything else I've seen so far.
Edmund
What is different or missing in C1 DB vs. Pro, in terms of the color editor?  I only have the DB version.
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #73 on: April 05, 2009, 02:26:37 pm »

Quote from: Colorwave
What is different or missing in C1 DB vs. Pro, in terms of the color editor?  I only have the DB version.

DB = Pro - dSLRs.

In other words they are identical when using raws from Phase One Digital backs, but DB does not allow you to edit/adjust/use Canon/Nikon/Leica files. DB is also free.

In version 4 "DB" simply means you select "Use in Digital Back mode" when it asks you to activate the software.


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Colorwave

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« Reply #74 on: April 05, 2009, 03:41:18 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
DB = Pro - dSLRs.
Thanks, Doug.  That's what I thought, but eronald's comments had me questioning myself.  I thought all the controls might go to 11 instead of only 10.  
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eronald

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« Reply #75 on: April 05, 2009, 03:55:59 pm »

Quote from: Colorwave
Thanks, Doug.  That's what I thought, but eronald's comments had me questioning myself.  I thought all the controls might go to 11 instead of only 10.  

C1 Pro and DB mode enables some controls eg. color editor advanced mode, which are not unlocked in LE.
You can look in the online manual, the disabled/enabled features are marked there.
 
Edmund
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Snook

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« Reply #76 on: April 05, 2009, 04:34:47 pm »

Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
Thanks
Snook
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 04:35:07 pm by Snook »
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eronald

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« Reply #77 on: April 05, 2009, 04:44:15 pm »

Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
Thanks
Snook

I think we're all a bit frightened of installing yet another upgrade
Most of us don't want to pay to beta test.

Edmund
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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #78 on: April 05, 2009, 04:44:19 pm »

Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??

Well, so far here's what I've noticed:

1) It's faster

2) you now use the tab key to toggle through the tool palette adjustment boxes and

3) when in those little adjustment boxes the up and down arrow keys increase or decrease those respective adjustments by 1 point  

4) you can now adjust basic jpegs or tiffs

5) you can package the adjustment set with the file

6) Oh, and it installed flawlessly right over 4.6 without having to first remove all traces of 4.6   (I'm running OSX 10.5.6.)

Cheers,
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 04:47:57 pm by Jack Flesher »
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tho_mas

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« Reply #79 on: April 05, 2009, 04:47:12 pm »

Quote from: Snook
Well does anybody have any comments about 4.7 so far??
I have not installed it yet as I am fine with 4.6.3.
No problems on...
4core 2.4GHz / 4GB RAM / Windows Vista
Macbook 2core 2.4GHz / 3GB RAM / OSX 10.5.6
Mac Pro 4.1 8core 2.26GHz / 12GB RAM / OSX 10.5.6

You will like new added adjustments with arrows key in numeric fields... so go for it.

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