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Author Topic: Capture One 4.7 released  (Read 71497 times)

Snook

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Capture One 4.7 released
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2009, 06:08:39 pm »

I agree with guy.
Doug why are these updates jumping release numbers so strange. 4.5 then 4.6 then 4.6.1 then 4.6.2 then 4.6.3 the 4.7.
Why the odd release numbers and are these major updates or small updates??
I hate installing first time releases re: 4.0,4.5,4.6,4.7???
Upon first update to 4.5 is when I almost had a disaster during a HUGE catalogue when it corrupted the Canon Cr2 files, Remember???... Would not want that to happen EVER again.
Could you let us know if these are major updates or small ones with Big names and full number upgrades??
I am sure I am not the only one wanting to know.
Thanks
Snook
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bcooter

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« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2009, 06:12:05 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Having a Phase back is the plus for it

Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B
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Guy Mancuso

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« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2009, 06:25:14 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B


Yea but i shot Canon way before the Phase back. At that time no other tethered software was around.
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ziocan

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« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2009, 06:42:58 pm »

Quote from: Guy Mancuso
Two things separate it from anyone else. It works tethered for non Phase backs aka Nikon and Canon and after 8 years of using it I still think without question the best raw converter when it comes down to quality of Image. Having a Phase back is the plus for it
I understand.
Yet, though i prefer the c1 output to many other softwares, it is not the best on every aspect of raw processing.
Again the eventual advantage in image quality, is not so tangible ( and it does not hold true for every image) to justify the cost diffrence, considering the lack of features or the easy of use of the LR interface, which allows to get to point B faster than with C1. And though I prefer the output of C1 for my cameras, yet it is not best on all areas. I say eventual advantage, because not every image is better processed with C1. It also depend on the kind of subject, scene and lighting. Sometimes it simply turn out better in LR. I could justify the cost and I got c1 pro, but yet I still need of using LR for 90% of my projects. I'm actually using C1 as a raw converter solely, and if I may, it does more or less the same good job of RAW Developer or Silkypix which cost 130 bucks.

I also have a phase back and I really like the quality of C1, but yet I'm not happy with the web gallery feature, the fact that there is not a printing module, and again if I'm not wrong, the lack of exif editor. Not mentioning that sorting files and picking select on LR it is just on another level. compared to LR, C1 is simply cumbersome.

I would like to spend a few words for the web module in lightroom. Web galleries are the contact sheets of the digital age. though C1 web gallery is fairly elegant, it is just one layout and it  offer 1% of the possibilities that are allowed in LR. I think personalizing web galleries is a bit as picking the right fine art box and presentation for your contact sheets or prints, and it is very important to be able to do the web bresentation you are confortable with and that does not look the same for everyone.
Plus, not every client has the same need when they are looking to the web galleries and LR has countless possibilities.

I still think that tweaking files in LR takes less time than c1, and again some photos they simply turn out better in LR.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:50:44 pm by ziocan »
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ziocan

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« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2009, 06:47:48 pm »

Quote from: bcooter
Isn't that suppose to be the plan?  I didn't know there was extra points for having a makers software work with their own camera.

B
Otherwise it would be like delivering a brand new car without the keys.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 06:48:25 pm by ziocan »
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2009, 06:57:31 pm »

Quote from: Snook
I agree with guy.
Doug why are these updates jumping release numbers so strange. 4.5 then 4.6 then 4.6.1 then 4.6.2 then 4.6.3 the 4.7.
Why the odd release numbers and are these major updates or small updates??
I hate installing first time releases re: 4.0,4.5,4.6,4.7???
Upon first update to 4.5 is when I almost had a disaster during a HUGE catalogue when it corrupted the Canon Cr2 files, Remember???... Would not want that to happen EVER again.
Could you let us know if these are major updates or small ones with Big names and full number upgrades??
I am sure I am not the only one wanting to know.
Thanks
Snook

There was also a 4.5.1 and 4.5.2.

The basic concept is that a minor release contains no new major features but only addresses performance, stability, tweaks. Major releases include new features. In other words this is 4.7 is not 4.6.4 because of EIP.

The same rule-of-thumb applies to a small update as to a large update (whether it be Phase, Apple, Adobe or anyone else): wait a few hours, days, or weeks depending on how you use the software. Users who are mainly using this for processing files on a workstation without do-or-die deadlines may download immediately. Photographers/Techs who tether with it are advised to wait longer. In the very least a high pressure production environment should NEVER be the first place you use something.

The above is quite generic advice. I've not heard or seen anything troublesome with 4.7. There are of course bugs (there are bugs in every piece of software including 3.7.9, and anything Apple/Adobe have produced) but nothing major. Then again it's been out for two days.

As always, if something pops up I'll do my best to get it on this board ASAP. And naturally any of Capture Integration's customers are welcome to call me on my cell anytime they'd like to get an idea of what I'm hearing from my interaction with customers, the programmers, the support staff, and my own personal usage.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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eronald

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« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2009, 08:18:59 pm »

I'd like to thank Doug for taking my call although I'm not a client of his, and explaining to me on the phone that profiles edited by the Color Editor can be saved out by means of a local menu, but he recommends saving edit lists rather than profiles. Doug is definitely knowledgeable about these products


Edmund

Quote from: dougpetersonci
As always, if something pops up I'll do my best to get it on this board ASAP. And naturally any of Capture Integration's customers are welcome to call me on my cell anytime they'd like to get an idea of what I'm hearing from my interaction with customers, the programmers, the support staff, and my own personal usage.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:19:28 pm by eronald »
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marcmccalmont

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« Reply #47 on: April 04, 2009, 04:14:57 am »

Done. On the P65+ and all future backs you can select the file extension ".IIQ" rather than ".TIF". The file format does not change, just the extension, solving the TIFF vs TIF confusion while maintaing file-format compatibility.

How about a firmware revision for older Phase backs?
Marc
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 04:15:38 am by marcmccalmont »
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scott morrish

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« Reply #48 on: April 04, 2009, 05:35:39 am »

Quote from: ziocan
I still think that tweaking files in LR takes less time than c1, and again some photos they simply turn out better in LR.

Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott
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Carsten W

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« Reply #49 on: April 04, 2009, 07:19:43 am »

Quote from: scott morrish
Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott

I also use both, and cannot agree. For high ISO, sharpening and white balance, there is for me no comparison. Nothing I do in Lightroom approaches the subtlety of C1 for difficult shots. Having said that, I still use Lightroom for most things, since the workflow and file management are so much better.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 07:20:20 am by carstenw »
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ziocan

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« Reply #50 on: April 04, 2009, 12:38:12 pm »

Quote from: carstenw
I also use both, and cannot agree. For high ISO, sharpening and white balance, there is for me no comparison. Nothing I do in Lightroom approaches the subtlety of C1 for difficult shots. Having said that, I still use Lightroom for most things, since the workflow and file management are so much better.
you see?
Even if C1 offers great output (and yet is debatable if that is an absolute), it lacks so many other features compared to LR that it cannot be preferred for, sorting, tweaking, cataloguing and presentation. just to tweak files for a web presentation right after the shoot, in LR take literally a fraction of the time. not mentioning if you want to FTP a gallery while you are sorting out an other at the same time, LR is the only one that allows it. there must be a reason why LR is widely adopted, despite not having the best output.
Then again, once on print or at web size, LR images my still look over all better than the C1 ones, despite not being so good when they are 100% magnified on 30" monitor. All those little improvements on the noise of the darkest areas or on sharpness we are getting from c1, are likely irrelevant on 90% of the printed media or web display, especially if working with cameras or backs that are 16mp end up.
then again for fashion and advertising people, the pictures are so heavily retouched once they are ready to go to the final media, that the RAW conversion quality difference is all gone.
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E_Edwards

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« Reply #51 on: April 04, 2009, 01:27:45 pm »

Ziocan,

You are absolutely right that Lightroom offers many more good features and it is the program I use every day for work because it's fast and allows me to tether to the Leaf files via a hot folder. I am happy with the noise in the shadow areas for the Leaf files too. The quality for me is as good, if not better than Leaf's own (after enabling my own Preset).

However, the other day, I processed some Canon 5DII files in Lightroom (the 5DII is my toy camera, not really for work) and I was very pleased with Lightroom and the general colour until a friend pointed to the noise in the shadow areas. True enough, there was a little bit of noise (I had shot at ISO 320) and I pointed out that this noise would never ever show in print, that it didn't bother me in the least.

Still, if I pushed the file (such as lightening the file by over one or two stops) I could see that the noise then turned into a appalling posterised mess in the deep shadow areas, (and this is even working in 16 bits). Again, I wouldn't normally push a file so much, I would expose properly in the first place. But it got me thinking.

I tried CaptureOne, same file. Tiny, pleasant noise viewing at 100 per cent. However, pushing the file like above, the noise increased but was quite pleasant, there was no posterisation at all. You could get rid of it with Noise Ninja if you wanted to, but with the Lightroom processed file you couldn't, too far gone.

I have to admit that the CaptureOne processed file was better in every sense and if I had to use 5DII files for work, I would not to hesitate to use it, particularly since it's faster when tethered, as you eliminate the need for a hotfolder. It's a shame C1 doesn't do galleries, as I too find it very useful in sending preselected files to client for their approval before I start any work on them.





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bcooter

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« Reply #52 on: April 04, 2009, 01:34:13 pm »

Quote from: marcmccalmont
How about a firmware revision for older Phase backs?
Marc


The "semi" official response to this by the Phase dealer was to use better finder rename.  I use this software, but rarely and of course it's just another step in the chain that requires another batch processing effort, though fast, the more steps you include, the more room for error.

It's interesting to me that Phase touts the new P65+with sensor plus technology as a system that will be constantly upgraded through firmware additions over time.  Sounds like a good idea, though the first addition (the sensor plus tech) required sending the back to the factory for the upgrade (not a good idea).  Same with upgrades to the actual Phase camera.

If medium format is going to continue to sell itself as a long term investment, then some backwards support for still viable  products should give the impression that owners that previously "invested" in the Phase Kodak sensored backs or any Phase product  will be long term viable.  Does the almost new Mamiya III work with the soon to be delivered LS lens, or do you need the IV?   Has anyone received a Phase e-mail to clarify this?

From backs to cameras it's not a big leap to develop the impression that unless you put down 20k more for an upgrade, your might to be sitting on something that will eventually be Phased Out (no pun intended).

In regards to the price of upgrades is there any clear published source that shows exactly what it costs to upgrade from product A to Product B?

The information stream from the factories, especially Phase seems to be a mystery and has no single point of origin.  We get information from Michael on this site that Phase will not announce new products until they are ready to ship. This is the same site that a few years ago published Phase's roadmap that didn't come to pass, so at some point we have to ask ourselves what to believe.

We get information from the phase dealers on this site about upgrades in software, new products/accessories that are yet not shipping (think LS lenses and right angle grips) and the same dealers have these items listen on their websites.  

We get e-mail blasts from the company that are pretty much just sales tools.  

Unless something has changed Michael is not the official spokesperson for Phase One, the dealers need to be all up to speed on what the official factory policies are and it's up to the maker to police their own information stream.

The recent announcement that Phase did/did not, might have bought the controlling interest in Mamiya is another example.  Somehow all the Phase connected people got excited about the news, but stopped short of giving the details, even changing information on the fly.  

There really needs to be some single point of information that comes direct, lives to the maker's own deadline and gives the buyer some assurance that what they buy today will be viable tomorrow and the user continue to do their work without spending a zillion hours keeping up with what is or is not available, how firmware updgrades are implemented, what version of software does or does not work with each operating system, etc. etc.

It seems that today, every big ticket item drops to half price the moment you turn the key and start it up, so if you make a mistake on your purchase it's a costly one.  Less so with $7,000 dslrs, or $8,000 used backs,  much more so with new $40,000 camera backs.

I think that's the reason you see a great deal of interest in people buying used or demo equipment or just saying to hell with it and going with a Canon, Nikon or Sony, or if you actually "need" a medium format back, most working photographers, either buy or rent a 39mpx back stick it on a Hasselblad H and get to work.

Good economy/bad economy, it's not just the front end savings, it's the back end penalty that worries people  and clear information is the start of giving the buyer assurance that they won't get stuck.

IMO

B
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #53 on: April 04, 2009, 04:09:42 pm »

Quote from: scott morrish
Before upgrading to the P45, i was consistently advised that C1 would 'definitely' better Lightroom. Consequently i took the same files through both pieces of software. What i found was that C1 immediately opened the files looking better, but that the additional tools available in Lightroom made it possible to achieve better results via Lightroom. (I do not use high ISO, so not sure if the same applies there). Photographers want open formats and i assume that trying to outflank Adobe must be expensive? I keep wondering why Phase doesn't drop C1 and either offer better backs, or cheaper backs? Same goes for Hasselblad... who prefers Phocus to Lightroom?

Scott

Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.


Quote from: ziocan
you see?
Even if C1 offers great output (and yet is debatable if that is an absolute), it lacks so many other features compared to LR that it cannot be preferred for, sorting, tweaking, cataloguing and presentation. just to tweak files for a web presentation right after the shoot, in LR take literally a fraction of the time. not mentioning if you want to FTP a gallery while you are sorting out an other at the same time, LR is the only one that allows it. there must be a reason why LR is widely adopted, despite not having the best output.
Then again, once on print or at web size, LR images my still look over all better than the C1 ones, despite not being so good when they are 100% magnified on 30" monitor. All those little improvements on the noise of the darkest areas or on sharpness we are getting from c1, are likely irrelevant on 90% of the printed media or web display, especially if working with cameras or backs that are 16mp end up.
then again for fashion and advertising people, the pictures are so heavily retouched once they are ready to go to the final media, that the RAW conversion quality difference is all gone.

Ask a reroucher if they would rather start off with a higher or lower quality output.

Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).

Quote from: E_Edwards
Ziocan,

You are absolutely right that Lightroom offers many more good features and it is the program I use every day for work because it's fast and allows me to tether to the Leaf files via a hot folder. I am happy with the noise in the shadow areas for the Leaf files too. The quality for me is as good, if not better than Leaf's own (after enabling my own Preset).

However, the other day, I processed some Canon 5DII files in Lightroom (the 5DII is my toy camera, not really for work) and I was very pleased with Lightroom and the general colour until a friend pointed to the noise in the shadow areas. True enough, there was a little bit of noise (I had shot at ISO 320) and I pointed out that this noise would never ever show in print, that it didn't bother me in the least.

Still, if I pushed the file (such as lightening the file by over one or two stops) I could see that the noise then turned into a appalling posterised mess in the deep shadow areas, (and this is even working in 16 bits). Again, I wouldn't normally push a file so much, I would expose properly in the first place. But it got me thinking.

I tried CaptureOne, same file. Tiny, pleasant noise viewing at 100 per cent. However, pushing the file like above, the noise increased but was quite pleasant, there was no posterisation at all. You could get rid of it with Noise Ninja if you wanted to, but with the Lightroom processed file you couldn't, too far gone.

I have to admit that the CaptureOne processed file was better in every sense and if I had to use 5DII files for work, I would not to hesitate to use it, particularly since it's faster when tethered, as you eliminate the need for a hotfolder. It's a shame C1 doesn't do galleries, as I too find it very useful in sending preselected files to client for their approval before I start any work on them.

C1 does do web galleries. Take 1000 raws in each program and it will take a fraction of the time to generate the web gallery in c1 compared to LR. It's very very fast. You do need to bring your own FTP program (LR can upload within the program, which is pretty great)  but it takes10 seconds to launch an FTP program, and drag-and-drop a folder.

Maybe you missed it because in C1 it is called Web Contact Sheet not Web Gallery.


E_Edwards

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« Reply #54 on: April 04, 2009, 04:16:15 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
C1 does do web galleries.
Maybe you missed it because in C1 it is called Web Contact Sheet not Web Gallery.

Thank you, Doug, I'm learning...and I don't mind using an FTP client, I always do anyway.

Edward
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scott morrish

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« Reply #55 on: April 04, 2009, 05:03:54 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.

Well i am a Phase user, and i was using C1, but Lightroom changed a lot of things. I was not suggesting that C1 was expensive, rather that making C1 must be expensive. I have both programs, never use high ISO, and rarely use anything but a phase back (which i am very happy with), and don't see the big quality difference in well exposed files from phase backs. I have no axe to grind... I just wonder why every camera/back maker wants to make their own software instead of concentrating resources on the hardware? Improved or cheaper hardware would serve photographers much better. And if you all (not just phase) opened the file formats up, that would also serve photographers better.


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Jack Flesher

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« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2009, 05:26:22 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.

Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).

Couldn't agree more.  In fact, once I got more fully facile with C1 -- admittedly a non-trivial exercise -- I nuked LR off my system.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 05:26:40 pm by Jack Flesher »
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ziocan

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« Reply #57 on: April 04, 2009, 08:13:11 pm »

Hopefully no one from Adobe is reading this thread, otherwise they may think to ask 600$ for Lightroom and 3 grands for a photoshop license.
If we use the same reasoning for pricing C1 to adobe products, i think that should be about right.


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ziocan

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« Reply #58 on: April 04, 2009, 08:32:03 pm »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Capture One is often one of the reasons people choose Phase One. Far from "expensive" it is one of Phase's greatest assets.



Ask a reroucher if they would rather start off with a higher or lower quality output.



Also I challange you to sort, compare, edit and make basic adjustments in LR as I do in Capture One 4.7. Both programs are excellentb in this area to the point that if you are an expert user of each both programs are faster than you are (I.e. The weak link is your ability to choose between images).


C1 does do web galleries. Take 1000 raws in each program and it will take a fraction of the time to generate the web gallery in c1 compared to LR. It's very very fast. You do need to bring your own FTP program (LR can upload within the program, which is pretty great)  but it takes10 seconds to launch an FTP program, and drag-and-drop a folder.
Of course we all prefer to be young and beautiful rather than old an ugly and I'm not hesitating one sec to believe that any retoucher prefer to begin working with a good file rather than a bad one.
We should also ask why the majority of retouchers use Adobe raw converters. Considering that C1 is compatible with most of the cameras that is worth using in the professional world, they should be using C1 instead, but it is not happening. that is a hint that C1 is not exactly a must..

It is undeniable that the speed of generating the web gallery in C1 is outstanding. but going through a FTP software and having only one option as web layout, it is not exactly an elegant solution for a software that is priced above all competitors. If I may.
Again lack of decent printing features, slideshow pdf generator and EXIF editor, make it hardly "la creme de la creme".

I have c1 pro and I would be very happy if it had those features for the price I paid.
All the features that some of my colleges seems happy about, IMO does not justify a price higher than competition, considering what else is lacking.
Of course, I should not even mention the price difference, after all it does not even buy a round of drinks at the lounge....
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 08:54:54 pm by ziocan »
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Carsten W

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« Reply #59 on: April 05, 2009, 03:51:06 am »

Quote from: Jack Flesher
Couldn't agree more.  In fact, once I got more fully facile with C1 -- admittedly a non-trivial exercise -- I nuked LR off my system.

Since it seems that I am genetically predisposed to buying only cameras whose raws convert much better with Capture One, I suppose I will have to spring for the full version. Do you feel like posting a little mini-tutorial on how to manage files with C1?
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:05:09 pm by carstenw »
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