Good point-and-shoot needed

[PeterAit]

Because I can't carry my DSLR everywhere, I'd like to get a P&S that can create high quality images. I'd like at lease 10 MP and RAW capability - an extensive zoom range is not that important. The Canon G10 looks good, any other possibilities I should look at?

Thanks,

Peter

[jdemott]

The other point and shoot that is usually mentioned in the same breath as the G10 is Panasonic LX3.  LX3 goes a little wider on the lens (24mm vs. 28mm) and is somewhat better at low light situations (but both are small sensor cameras that are inherently more noisy than current DSLRs).  The G10 zooms to a longer focal length (140mm vs 60mm) and has about 40 percent more MP.  I've been very happy with my G10.  In daylight, it takes beautiful, detailed shots that can be printed as large as most DSLRs, with very good color.  The controls are well thought out for a point and shoot camera--I especially like the convenient exposure compensation dial--and the LCD is very usable even in bright light.  Mainly I like having a decent camera that is small enough to take anywhere.  The LX3 sounds like a very nice camera also--24mm would be nice, but I decided in favor of additional reach at the long end.

[DarkPenguin]

Panny LX3 is worth checking.  And the fuji f200exr looks pretty interesting but I don't know anyone who has one yet.

[Lisa Nikodym]

And the fuji f200exr looks pretty interesting but I don't know anyone who has one yet.

I just got an F200EXR last week for times when I'm not carting my DSLR around, because the digicam fits easily in my purse.  It has some pretty cool features, including your choice of regular 12 MP mode, 6 MP averaged-pixel low-light mode (for noise reduction), and 6 MP high-dynamic-range mode, which gives you a much wider dynamic range to avoid blown highlights.  The last is mostly why I got it, because I was tired of throwing away images with blown highlights taken with my old Fujifilm F30, and the couple of test cases I've done around the house so far seem to really work.  However, it doesn't have RAW (no Fujifilm digicams do) or histograms, unfortunately.

Another cool feature I haven't seen before is some film-emulation modes, including a B&W mode and a sepia mode, which are visible in "live view".  It can be very useful for pre-visualizing images that you might want to make B&W.  Also, unlike some of the more advanced digicams, it's small enough to fit easily in a pocket.

The most important fact to take away from this:  The big advantage of Fujifilm's "F" series is that they somehow (with sensor-design magic) manage to make a sensor that has considerably lower noise than other digicam sensors.  The trade-off is no RAW mode.  

Lisa

[DarkPenguin]

I just got an F200EXR last week for times when I'm not carting my DSLR around, because the digicam fits easily in my purse.  It has some pretty cool features, including your choice of regular 12 MP mode, 6 MP averaged-pixel low-light mode (for noise reduction), and 6 MP high-dynamic-range mode, which gives you a much wider dynamic range to avoid blown highlights.  The last is mostly why I got it, because I was tired of throwing away images with blown highlights taken with my old Fujifilm F30, and the couple of test cases I've done around the house so far seem to really work.  However, it doesn't have RAW (no Fujifilm digicams do) or histograms, unfortunately.

Another cool feature I haven't seen before is some film-emulation modes, including a B&W mode and a sepia mode, which are visible in "live view".  It can be very useful for pre-visualizing images that you might want to make B&W.  Also, unlike some of the more advanced digicams, it's small enough to fit easily in a pocket.

The most important fact to take away from this:  The big advantage of Fujifilm's "F" series is that they somehow (with sensor-design magic) manage to make a sensor that has considerably lower noise than other digicam sensors.  The trade-off is no RAW mode.  

Lisa

Very nice report.  What is the fringing like?  My fuji f10 was a very nice point and shoot but the some scenes were purple from all the fringing.

[Lisa Nikodym]

What is the fringing like? My fuji f10 was a very nice point and shoot but the some scenes were purple from all the fringing.

DarkP, I just took a couple of photos off my back deck with the lens at longest zoom, of some houses on the ridgeline across from me against a bright pale blue sky, and looked at them at 200%, and could see no fringing whatsoever where the trees and house roofs meet the sky (which is where I'd most expect to see it).  Does that sound like a reasonable test to you?  (If you'd like to see the jpgs, PM me and I can send them to you.)

I found that the camera also has an "auto EXR" mode, in which it automatically chooses which of the three special modes is best based on the lighting conditions.  For this set of photos, it decided that the max dynamic range mode was needed (which makes sense, with a relatively dark forested ridge and bright sky).

Lisa

[DarkPenguin]

That sounds good to me.  Thanks for the test.  It is definitely on my wish list now.

[Ray]

The two P&S cameras that interest me are the Fujifilm F200EXR and the Ricoh CX1. I'm not sure which I would find more useful. I'd like to see a 'shoot-out'. They've both got features the other doesn't have, but I'm impressed with the high resolution LCD screen of the Ricoh (920,000 pixels as opposed to the standard 230,000 of the F200EXR) and the closer focussing distance in macro mode (1cm as opposed to 5cm for the F200EXR).

On the other hand, the F200EXR might simply produce sharper images. It has 12mp as opposed to the CX1's 9mp and the Fujifilm lens is possibly better quality. Fortunately, I'm in no hurry so I can wait for the comparisons to come out.

[DarkPenguin]

There are F200EXR samples at fujifilm.com

[Dale_Cotton2]

I looked at the F200EXR manual PDF on-line and could find no indication of any setting to vary the amount of in-camera sharpening.

In all the compacts I've tried to date in-camera JPEG sharpening is set so crudely that halos either already show or will show if any further USM is applied. There are many images in which I don't want any sharpening at all, let alone crude sharpening. (This may not matter so much to some, but for me it's one of the major reasons I stick to raw.)

Lisa: can you confirm that there is no sharpening menu on the F200EXR? And also give us some idea what the degree of sharpening looks to be when viewed at 100%?  TIA.

[KevinA]

How do the new micro fourthirds compare size and weight with G10 type cameras?

Kevin.

[DarkPenguin]

How do the new micro fourthirds compare size and weight with G10 type cameras?

Kevin.

The only one that exists is much bigger.

[Paul Sumi]

I've been very happy with my G10.  In daylight, it takes beautiful, detailed shots that can be printed as large as most DSLRs, with very good color.  The controls are well thought out for a point and shoot camera--I especially like the convenient exposure compensation dial--and the LCD is very usable even in bright light.  Mainly I like having a decent camera that is small enough to take anywhere.

Another vote for the G10.  The zoom range covers 85% of the focal lengths in which I normally work. I love the RAW capability but out-of-the-camera JPGS are also very good.  The optical image stabilization works well at slow shutter speeds.  Shutter lag is low for a digicam of its class (but not DSLR-quick). The main drawback for me is that it is quite noisy at higher ISOs (400 and above).

It doesn't replace my DSLRs but it's a great carry-around camera.

Paul

[Lisa Nikodym]

Lisa: can you confirm that there is no sharpening menu on the F200EXR? And also give us some idea what the degree of sharpening looks to be when viewed at 100%? TIA.

No sharpening options.  No color space options either.  I don't think any cameras in Fujifilm's F line has those.  You get what Fujifilm gives you.

Following are links to two quick test snaps so you can see the level of sharpening yourself (these were both in high-dynamic-range mode):
image 1
image 2

Lisa

[lensfactory]

I have extensively used the Canon G-series and Lumix LX series and in my opinion, the LX3 is the better camera for a few reasons.
I like to shoot wide...it is 24mm. I have a Voigtlander 21mm viewfinder I stick in the shoe, and the brightlines correspond to the frame. It is fast...2.0. The ergonomics are better. While the G10 looks great and would seem to be easier to operate with the added dials on top, the joystick on the LX3 is actually faster and easier to use. Less fumbling around. THe lens is a bit on the short size,yes...but haven't you G10 users notice how useless your tele shots are when handheld (lousy focus).
I also love that the LX3 has multiple exposure...a useful (for me) addition to do some experimental photography. I DO wish it had the G10's built in ND filters. Other than that, LX3 hands down.

I also have the Olympus e-420 w/25mm pancake lens. THis is my favorite 'beater' camera, as it gives me nice file sizes and is not much bigger than a G10. If you are thinking about the G1, this is a cheaper alternative and is at the same size. Since the G1 actually makes sound during shutter actuation, I see no advantage to it over the e-420.

When I don`t want to carry around the 5d and L lenses ( for reasons of weight,psossible theft,having to be 'careful' etc.), I strap on my e-420 and have my LX3 in my pocket.

[dalethorn]

I've used the LX3 since it came out, and have been disappointed. The 60 mm (equiv.) maximum zoom makes the camera most suitable for landscapes at 24 mm equiv. zoom, where the amount of detail is too much for the tiny sensor.  From everything I've heard, landscapes taken with the G10 would blow the LX3 away in every respect.  The LX3 does one thing fairly well - at indoor events where there is a reasonable amount of light, I can shoot up to ISO 800 and still in most cases get a decent 8x10 inch print.  Macros will supposedly focus down to 1 cm, but the G10 will far outperform the LX3 on macros as well.  Other than that, the LX3 has a mystique somewhat like the Leica 'M' cameras, and if you have the $170 Leica carrycase for the LX3 like I do, you can look quite natty at your parties, where BTW you can take available-light photos with the LX3 and maybe get a few keepers.

For any normal user, it's going to come down to size. The LX3 is way too big and heavy for a shirt pocket, but still smaller than the G10.

[PeterAit]

As the person who started this thread, I'd thought I'd check in with a report on the G10 I ended up getting. It's a very impressive camera and the image quality is amazing for a P&S. I particularly like the fact that exposure adjustment is done with a dial and not a menu. The LCD is huge and very bright. The optical viewfinder is not too great, it shows only 90-95% of the image. Your right thumb tends to fall on control buttons when you are shooting, and that takes some getting used to. Rather heavy for its size. It's not exactly a shirt-pocket camera, but it is certainly a jeans or jacket pocket camera. I'm having a lot of fun taking it with me almost everywhere.

Peter

[AgencyDigital_NYC]

G10

[santa]

An acquaintance recently got a G10...then wanted to shoot some night images and found no way to shoot more than 15 sec exposures.  I didn't research it to double check the veracity of that, but he was sorely disappointed when he wanted to shoot some Aurora images. Obviously that's not a concern for many people but worth mentioning. Apparently it has no bulb setting and no ability to use a remote timer if his comments are correct.

[Paul Sumi]

An acquaintance recently got a G10...then wanted to shoot some night images and found no way to shoot more than 15 sec exposures.  I didn't research it to double check the veracity of that, but he was sorely disappointed when he wanted to shoot some Aurora images. Obviously that's not a concern for many people but worth mentioning. Apparently it has no bulb setting and no ability to use a remote timer if his comments are correct.

DPreview confirms 15 second max shutter speed and also looks like no bulb setting:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonG10/

Paul