KM MAXXUM 7D sensor

[cristianomc]

Good observation..... I think we have to wait for another review to get plausible conclusions....

[ReynardTheFox]

Yeah I think KM have said its an updated version of the 6MP sensor found in the D100, D70, Pentax istD etc.  It has some physical differences to those other cameras - it is ever so slightly smaller than the other Sony 6MP sensors and I think I read it has a higher number of overall pixels (but the same number of effective pixels) or something.  

As for why KM don't make their own sensors well I assume it must be pretty difficult to do or Nikon, Pentax, Olympus etc would all do it as well instead of buying their sensors from Sony or Kodak.  Only Canon and Fuji seem to make their own sensors.

[Ebbe Suntum]

ps: is there any other review of the 7D available?

Have you tried this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...inolta-7d.shtml

[cristianomc]

As an example where spec. sheets are more available, Kodak has increased the green light sensitivity (quantum efficiency) of its FFT CCD sensors from about 20% in the 16MP and 22MP versions for digital backs to 34% in the sensor for the E-1, to 40% in the one for the coming Leica R 10MP digital back, which increases their "speed".

Hummm...good news, but theese cams are too expensive to a brazilian guy...  
A KM M7D seems to be on the top of my list in both: quality and price.

[cristianomc]

Looking at the s/n ratio chart on the Maxxum 7D review I saw that the dB number on Maxxum 7D is exatly the same from Canon EOS 10D.
Does anyone, like me, think that Maxxum 7D is using the same APS-C sized image sensor?

[BJL]

Minolta ("KM") is using yet another Sony interline CCD sensor, more or less the same as the ones used in the D100, D70, *-ist D and *-ist DS.

However it is possibly not exactly the same: Sony seems to have made successive improvements on this basic design since the "Mark 1 version" used in the D100. The noise measurements for the 7D seem better than for the previous cameras with similar Sony sensors.


As an aside, I find it interesting that the same company, Sony, is pushing hard towards ever more and smaller pixels in its compact digicam sensors, while apparently concentrating on improving quality at the same pixel count in their DSLR sensors. Clearly they could put the 8MP of their 2/3" sensors into their far larger "APS-C" sized sensors, but choose not too.

[cristianomc]

correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that KM ever designed or manufactured a sensor.

All their digital cameras sensors have been purchased from Sony in the past.

Your question is a bit like asking why Dell is not making their own CPUs...

Best regards,
Bernard

You're right....but I don't remember to have said that KM had manufacturing a sensor....
Which are the leading companies? Canon and Nikon. What differ them (in resume) from the others? They make their own sensors.
I mean that I'm a KM lover. In this case, its coadjutant position could be abandoned by designing and manufacturing its own sensors.
I know it's a agressive and maybe a foolish opinion, but, like I said, I'm a KM lover and like this I have my dreams!!!

Best Regards.
Cristiano

ps: is there any other review of the 7D available?

[BJL]

Which are the leading companies? Canon and Nikon. ... They make their own sensors.

In digital cameras overall, Canon is about number two behind Sony, and Nikon is well down, at five or six. Olympus sells far more digital cameras than Nikon, though in both cases, Sanyo does much of the manufacturing.

Canon and Nikon dominate only in DSLRs, and there the main reason is their established dominance of SLR technology; the sensors are probably less important to their DSLR strength than their lenses, autofocus, light metering, and such.

Also, overall Canon and Nikon do not make their own sensors: most of their digital cameras, the compact digicams, use sensors from Sony, Sanyo and such, while almost all of Nikon's DSLR sensors are made by Sony. Canon's DSLR sensors and the Nikon D2H sensor are the only exceptions, and even then someone like Sony might fabricate the D2H sensor to a Nikon design.

[BJL]

The KM D7D is supposed to use the same sensor as the D100 and D70. A couple of interesting differences: ...

And its noise levels are reportedly lower.

Sony seems to have incrementally updated its 6MP sensor and support chip design during the progression of D100, *-ist D, D70, *-ist DS, 7D. There are signs like apparently lower noise levels. Canon did a similar thing in the progression D60, 10D, 300D.

It is as if people are so focused on characteristics like pixel count, sensor size (format wars) and sensor technology (CCD vs CMOS wars) that they overlook the other directions in which significant improvements are happening.


As an example where spec. sheets are more available, Kodak has increased the green light sensitivity (quantum efficiency) of its FFT CCD sensors from about 20% in the 16MP and 22MP versions for digital backs to 34% in the sensor for the E-1, to 40% in the one for the coming Leica R 10MP digital back, which increases their "speed".

[srpluta]

I don't think Canon sells any of their sensors to other manufacturers.  I could be wrong, of course.

[cristianomc]

I think the secret of Canon are the sensors, resuming. But I don't understand why KM, a long time well stabilized company, is still "buying" sensors from others company (Sony). I think they have "THE" people to make a good one. But why they don't fight?
I love the dynamic range of KM cams, the color reproduction (naturally, the best), the focusing... it's image is simply natural, like "eye view". But I think a more agressive hehavior would be appreciated (including better customer support - they simply don't answer emails).

[BJL]

why they are not willing to get into that. Sensors are like CPUs or Plane engines.
...
Canon and Nikon are both companies that have had strong ties with the semi-conductor industry which probably made it possible for them to lower the investement needed to design and produce sensors.

Or indeed, sensors are like film: a very different part of photographic technology than lenses, viewfinders, light meters, autofocus systems and other traditional parts of a camera body. I see no advantage to a typical camera and lens maker entering a radically new technological area when suppliers like Sanyo, Sony and Matsushita have the resources of far larger electronics manufacturing capacity than camera sensors alone can support.

Canon is indeed a bit different, being a substantial electronics maker; Nikon seems to be settling on collaboration with Sony and others for their sensors rather than going it alone.

[Keith Wong]

Nobody else notice this?

The KM D7D is supposed to use the same sensor as the D100 and D70. A couple of interesting differences:

1. The D7D shoots as low as ISO 100. Both Nikons bottom out at ISO 200.

2. The flash-sync speed on the D7D is 1/160 (with anti-shake off). The D70 has a f-sync of 1/500 thanks to the ability to turn off the CCD.

It might be the same sensor, but it's a very different implementation. Interesting, can't wait till we get more information.

[Kenneth Sky]

Not as likely as Sony coming up with an 8-11 mP version of its APS-C sensor for the K-M 9D. A more appropriate comarison for the manufacture of sensors can be found in plasma TVs. There are only 3 main manufacturers of the "glass" because of the huge cost to set up a manufacturing line. As models become more mature and companies want to maximize their ROI they sell off over runs or excess capacity to other manufacturers. Don't be surprised if Canon has to do it as well in the next few years. Digital camera sales are expected to level off in 2006 and then drop. Model life will be extended and followers will catch up to leaders.

[BJL]

Anyone ever thought of the wild idea KM MAXXUM xD implementing the next generation sensor from Foveon?

This wild idea has ben proposed over and again for Olympus, Nikon, Pentax, etc., and yet all these companies, along with Kodak and Canon outsource sensors from Sony, Kodak, FillFactory, Matsushita etc. instead. We have only Sigma in DSLRs and the fragments of bankrupt Polaroid in compact digicams trying Foveon X3 sensors.

I have to conclude that every mainstream camera maker has passed on Foveon X3 sensors for a good reason; they have judged them not to be a competitive option.

I agree with Kenneth Sky that the most likely upgrade option is another from Sony, who are already making a 12.5MP CMOS sensor of the correct "1.5x" size, for the Nikon D2X.

[Elgsdyr]

It seems like a copy and paste mistake by Michael. The graphical bars shows different values than the table. Also the table says 'NA' at ISO 3200 while the bars shows differently.

The sensor is an updated version of the one seen in various Nikon and Pentax DSLR's. KM themselves claim that it's the best 6MP APS-size sensor on the market so far. Of course, only time will tell as the camera is not generally available yet.

Yours etc.
Torsten

[BernardLanguillier]

I think the secret of Canon are the sensors, resuming. But I don't understand why KM, a long time well stabilized company, is still "buying" sensors from others company (Sony). I think they have "THE" people to make a good one. But why they don't fight?

correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that KM ever designed or manufactured a sensor.

All their digital cameras sensors have been purchased from Sony in the past.

Your question is a bit like asking why Dell is not making their own CPUs...

Best regards,
Bernard

[BernardLanguillier]

You're right....but I don't remember to have said that KM had manufacturing a sensor....
I mean that I'm a KM lover. In this case, its coadjutant position could be abandoned by designing and manufacturing its own sensors.

Hi there,

I guess that cost and company culture/expertise are the main reason why they are not willing to get into that. Sensors are like CPUs or Plane engines (that both Boing and Airbus don't manufacture themselves), they are highly specialized devices and a thorough analysis is required before deciding to jump on the crazy adventure of starting out new activities in such fields against very experienced competitors.

Canon and Nikon are both companies that have had strong ties with the semi-conductor industry which probably made it possible for them to lower the investement needed to design and produce sensors.

Best regards,
Bernard

[cristianomc]

ps: is there any other review of the 7D available?

Have you tried this: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...inolta-7d.shtml

Yes Ebbe, I did.... thanks!

[iordanov]

Anyone ever thought of the wild idea KM MAXXUM xD implementing the next generation sensor from Foveon?