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Deor

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Spraying technique for canvas
« on: March 24, 2009, 07:21:13 pm »

I just replaced my Z3100 with the Z3200 model and just love it. I started printing on canvas recently and find the prints outstanding. I also just started doing gallery wraps and found that  if the canvas is not coated, the edges cracks. I have tried Glamour II. Rolled it on and was not that happy with the result and now I have tried applying the coating with a HPLV (Wagner) with much better results, yet not quite right. I would appreciate  help in learning the proper spraying technique. I sprayed the canvases on the wall and left them there to dry, and  had a few run marks.   The big question is should the canvas print be sprayed on the flat to prevent this or should the GLII be mixed with less water. Any help would be appreciated. Am glad I found this forum.  It is a wealth of information.
Thanks Peter
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bill t.

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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2009, 09:42:27 pm »

Spraying dilution for GII whould be between 45% and 50% water.  The main difference is that you will reach a glossy surface in fewer coats at 45% than at 50%.  Anything more or less diluted is probably not a good idea.

The Wagner gun does not "throttle down" very well, which means you need to put down coats that are relatively heavy.  This requires the print to be tilted up no more than about 30 to 45 degrees from laying flat, and preferably the print should be flat, planar to the ground.  Otherwise you risk runs.  The worst part of this is that you will have to hold the gun directly over parts of the print, this leaves you extra vulnerable to spits, splatters, and drips.  Be aware that when throttle back the Wagner you also greatly reduce the fan size to the point where it is effectively only about 2 or 3" across at the lowest possible settings.

Proper spraying technique is to hold the gun no more than 8 inches from the surface.  Figure out how wide you spray fan is, then advance the spray swatch no more than 1/2 of 1/3 of that on each successive pass.  I now think you should restrict all your passes to either vertical or horizontal, but do not directly follow a pass in one direction with a pass in the other direction.  It is best not to pile up passes over another pass that is just starting to get tacky, wait till the previous pass is dried.  Using a tape measure I put marks a few inches apart on the tape above and below the print, this is a great help in keeping the paint application evened out, just go from mark to mark ( you can interpolate between the marks on alternate passes if you are hardcore).

I recently went to a Fuji HVLP spray system which has been giving me fabulous results.  One of the things a really powerful gun lets you do is spray extremely fine coats with great consistency.  I tape the print up to a 48 x 96" foam core, and hang it up vertically on a couple of nails on my very dusty front porch.  With very fine atomization and minimal airflow I put down 4 extremely fine coats.  After coat #4 I have a satin finish with 50% dilution, or a slightly glossy finish with 45% dilution.  The print is vertical through the whole thing, there is just isn't enough liquid put down on each to allow any running.  With this system drying time between coats is only 10 to 15 minutes.  And miraculously, I almost never get any dust, hair, dirt or any other contamination, which is a marked change from when I was applying coatings with the print face up.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2009, 04:52:59 am »

Quote from: Deor
I just replaced my Z3100 with the Z3200 model and just love it. I started printing on canvas recently and find the prints outstanding. I also just started doing gallery wraps and found that  if the canvas is not coated, the edges cracks. I have tried Glamour II. Rolled it on and was not that happy with the result and now I have tried applying the coating with a HPLV (Wagner) with much better results, yet not quite right. I would appreciate  help in learning the proper spraying technique. I sprayed the canvases on the wall and left them there to dry, and  had a few run marks.   The big question is should the canvas print be sprayed on the flat to prevent this or should the GLII be mixed with less water. Any help would be appreciated. Am glad I found this forum.  It is a wealth of information.
Thanks Peter

I'm using a more conventional gun and dilute the Lascaux Acrylic 2:1 part water. Keeping the air volume as low as possible with that gun. Canvas clamped on a board that's about 70 degrees vertical in the spray booth. Laying down two succesive gloss layers to fill the fabric, one thin last layer for matte, semi matte or gloss. Drying in between through a silkscreen tunnel dryer that happens to be here. I really prefer to use more thinner layers and it is going fast enough with the forced drying. Spray pattern changing per start left>right, up>down, right>left, down>up. Don't wait too long for the stretching process, the coating gets harder in time.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
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Deor

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2009, 09:32:44 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
Spraying dilution for GII whould be between 45% and 50% water.  The main difference is that you will reach a glossy surface in fewer coats at 45% than at 50%.  Anything more or less diluted is probably not a good idea.

The Wagner gun does not "throttle down" very well, which means you need to put down coats that are relatively heavy.  This requires the print to be tilted up no more than about 30 to 45 degrees from laying flat, and preferably the print should be flat, planar to the ground.  Otherwise you risk runs.  The worst part of this is that you will have to hold the gun directly over parts of the print, this leaves you extra vulnerable to spits, splatters, and drips.  Be aware that when throttle back the Wagner you also greatly reduce the fan size to the point where it is effectively only about 2 or 3" across at the lowest possible settings.

Proper spraying technique is to hold the gun no more than 8 inches from the surface.  Figure out how wide you spray fan is, then advance the spray swatch no more than 1/2 of 1/3 of that on each successive pass.  I now think you should restrict all your passes to either vertical or horizontal, but do not directly follow a pass in one direction with a pass in the other direction.  It is best not to pile up passes over another pass that is just starting to get tacky, wait till the previous pass is dried.  Using a tape measure I put marks a few inches apart on the tape above and below the print, this is a great help in keeping the paint application evened out, just go from mark to mark ( you can interpolate between the marks on alternate passes if you are hardcore).

I recently went to a Fuji HVLP spray system which has been giving me fabulous results.  One of the things a really powerful gun lets you do is spray extremely fine coats with great consistency.  I tape the print up to a 48 x 96" foam core, and hang it up vertically on a couple of nails on my very dusty front porch.  With very fine atomization and minimal airflow I put down 4 extremely fine coats.  After coat #4 I have a satin finish with 50% dilution, or a slightly glossy finish with 45% dilution.  The print is vertical through the whole thing, there is just isn't enough liquid put down on each to allow any running.  With this system drying time between coats is only 10 to 15 minutes.  And miraculously, I almost never get any dust, hair, dirt or any other contamination, which is a marked change from when I was applying coatings with the print face up.

Thanks Bill for the great info, much appreciated. Your comment about the fuji sprayer just made my wallet feel 600 lighter. Hope this sprayer  gets the job done well.
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Deor

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2009, 09:34:33 pm »

Quote from: Ernst Dinkla
I'm using a more conventional gun and dilute the Lascaux Acrylic 2:1 part water. Keeping the air volume as low as possible with that gun. Canvas clamped on a board that's about 70 degrees vertical in the spray booth. Laying down two succesive gloss layers to fill the fabric, one thin last layer for matte, semi matte or gloss. Drying in between through a silkscreen tunnel dryer that happens to be here. I really prefer to use more thinner layers and it is going fast enough with the forced drying. Spray pattern changing per start left>right, up>down, right>left, down>up. Don't wait too long for the stretching process, the coating gets harder in time.



met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html
Thanks Ernst for the information. Will try again this weekend.
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bill t.

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2009, 10:21:27 pm »

Quote from: Deor
Thanks Bill for the great info, much appreciated. Your comment about the fuji sprayer just made my wallet feel 600 lighter. Hope this sprayer  gets the job done well.
The settings on the pro guns give you a lot of control, but have to set up right, and you need to be able to repeat the settings.

For a starting point, on my gun equipped with the standard #4 cap, the best position for the needle is to back it out (from closed) about 13/16 of a turn.  The air valve in the hose coupling goes from 0 (fully closed) to 90 degrees (fully open).  I find the best air flow setting is about 50 degrees open from the fully closed position.  But what you should do is set the needle at about 13/16 turn open, then adjust the airflow until the atomization just starts and you get a sloppy, splattering fan.  Keep opening the air valve until the fan looks healthy with no splattering, but the air valve is still less than fully open.  With the minimal spray I suggest here, drying times will be less than 20 minutes per coat and you can leave the canvas vertical the whole time.

If you want to go for broke, that gun will definitely be able to soak the heck out of a canvas on a single pass if you put the pedal to the metal, but be sure the canvas is laying flat or you will get mega-runs.  You will get very high gloss on heavy single coats, think about mixing in a little matte if you take that road.

On my gun I closed the needle all the way, then with the edge of a file put a little mark at the 12:00 position, very helpful reference.

Your gun will probably has the ability to adjust the fan size by screwing the cap slightly in and out relative to the paint orifice, using the black plastic threaded collar.  Best position is with the cap surface nearest the orifice exactly in the same plane as the orifice.  Much different than the Wagner, on the Fuji the cap is spring loaded against the black plastic retaining collar, so don't just automatically tighten the collar all the way in which will give you a smallish fan and inferior atomization.

Remember that dilution is very important.  If you wind up with a sand-papery surface you need a much more dilute solution (or you're spraying way too far away from the canvas, for distance reference I use the tips of my thumb and little finger spread as far apart as possible).  Syrupy GlamourII out of the bucket would NEVER spray well, you absolutely need for your GII solution to be 45 to 50% water.  Clearshield out of the jug is much thinner, but it still needs some dilution, maybe 20 to 30% water.

One thing to watch out for is NEVER let your gun fall over with paint in it.  The paint will find its way into the little plastic tube used to pressurize the can, and then glue shut the little plastic one-way valve in the line.  If this happens immediately pull the tube off the gun and use your mouth to blow water through the tube in the right direction to clear the valve.  BTW you should buy the kit with the spare lines and one-way valves, they come three to a package.  If you place the gun down on a ledge with the hose attached, you can just about be sure it's going to fall off.  I make a point of never allowing the gun out of my hand when the hose is attached, except to hang it up on a long nail in the wall.

And keep the turbine as far away from the spray as possible, those filters suck a lot of air.

A minor gotcha I have noticed is that the masking tape I use to hold the print down does not soak up paint anywhere near as fast as the canvas.  So there is a situation where the canvas feels dry but the tape is still wet enough to generate a drip on the next pass that will find its way onto the canvas.  So before starting a pass feel the tape (or backing) above the canvas and if it feels too wet just wipe it with your finger or a towel.

Good luck!  I feel the Fuji was a great investment, coating those big canvases has moved from a high stress, much dreaded semi-nightmare to one of the easiest and surest things in my workflow.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 10:26:39 pm by bill t. »
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Deor

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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 12:59:37 am »

Quote from: bill t.
The settings on the pro guns give you a lot of control, but have to set up right, and you need to be able to repeat the settings.

For a starting point, on my gun equipped with the standard #4 cap, the best position for the needle is to back it out (from closed) about 13/16 of a turn.  The air valve in the hose coupling goes from 0 (fully closed) to 90 degrees (fully open).  I find the best air flow setting is about 50 degrees open from the fully closed position.  But what you should do is set the needle at about 13/16 turn open, then adjust the airflow until the atomization just starts and you get a sloppy, splattering fan.  Keep opening the air valve until the fan looks healthy with no splattering, but the air valve is still less than fully open.  With the minimal spray I suggest here, drying times will be less than 20 minutes per coat and you can leave the canvas vertical the whole time.

If you want to go for broke, that gun will definitely be able to soak the heck out of a canvas on a single pass if you put the pedal to the metal, but be sure the canvas is laying flat or you will get mega-runs.  You will get very high gloss on heavy single coats, think about mixing in a little matte if you take that road.

On my gun I closed the needle all the way, then with the edge of a file put a little mark at the 12:00 position, very helpful reference.

Your gun will probably has the ability to adjust the fan size by screwing the cap slightly in and out relative to the paint orifice, using the black plastic threaded collar.  Best position is with the cap surface nearest the orifice exactly in the same plane as the orifice.  Much different than the Wagner, on the Fuji the cap is spring loaded against the black plastic retaining collar, so don't just automatically tighten the collar all the way in which will give you a smallish fan and inferior atomization.

Remember that dilution is very important.  If you wind up with a sand-papery surface you need a much more dilute solution (or you're spraying way too far away from the canvas, for distance reference I use the tips of my thumb and little finger spread as far apart as possible).  Syrupy GlamourII out of the bucket would NEVER spray well, you absolutely need for your GII solution to be 45 to 50% water.  Clearshield out of the jug is much thinner, but it still needs some dilution, maybe 20 to 30% water.

One thing to watch out for is NEVER let your gun fall over with paint in it.  The paint will find its way into the little plastic tube used to pressurize the can, and then glue shut the little plastic one-way valve in the line.  If this happens immediately pull the tube off the gun and use your mouth to blow water through the tube in the right direction to clear the valve.  BTW you should buy the kit with the spare lines and one-way valves, they come three to a package.  If you place the gun down on a ledge with the hose attached, you can just about be sure it's going to fall off.  I make a point of never allowing the gun out of my hand when the hose is attached, except to hang it up on a long nail in the wall.

And keep the turbine as far away from the spray as possible, those filters suck a lot of air.

A minor gotcha I have noticed is that the masking tape I use to hold the print down does not soak up paint anywhere near as fast as the canvas.  So there is a situation where the canvas feels dry but the tape is still wet enough to generate a drip on the next pass that will find its way onto the canvas.  So before starting a pass feel the tape (or backing) above the canvas and if it feels too wet just wipe it with your finger or a towel.

Good luck!  I feel the Fuji was a great investment, coating those big canvases has moved from a high stress, much dreaded semi-nightmare to one of the easiest and surest things in my workflow.
Info like this is worth it weight in gold. Thanks a million Bill.  You saved me a ton of wasted time and money learning the best method. Now it time to spray some canvases. Will let you know how I made out.
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Mulis Pictus

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« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 03:20:19 pm »

Quote from: bill t.
Spraying dilution for GII whould be between 45% and 50% water.  The main difference is that you will reach a glossy surface in fewer coats at 45% than at 50%.  Anything more or less diluted is probably not a good idea.

The Wagner gun does not "throttle down" very well, which means you need to put down coats that are relatively heavy.  This requires the print to be tilted up no more than about 30 to 45 degrees from laying flat, and preferably the print should be flat, planar to the ground.  Otherwise you risk runs.  The worst part of this is that you will have to hold the gun directly over parts of the print, this leaves you extra vulnerable to spits, splatters, and drips.  Be aware that when throttle back the Wagner you also greatly reduce the fan size to the point where it is effectively only about 2 or 3" across at the lowest possible settings.

Proper spraying technique is to hold the gun no more than 8 inches from the surface.  Figure out how wide you spray fan is, then advance the spray swatch no more than 1/2 of 1/3 of that on each successive pass.  I now think you should restrict all your passes to either vertical or horizontal, but do not directly follow a pass in one direction with a pass in the other direction.  It is best not to pile up passes over another pass that is just starting to get tacky, wait till the previous pass is dried.  Using a tape measure I put marks a few inches apart on the tape above and below the print, this is a great help in keeping the paint application evened out, just go from mark to mark ( you can interpolate between the marks on alternate passes if you are hardcore).

I recently went to a Fuji HVLP spray system which has been giving me fabulous results.  One of the things a really powerful gun lets you do is spray extremely fine coats with great consistency.  I tape the print up to a 48 x 96" foam core, and hang it up vertically on a couple of nails on my very dusty front porch.  With very fine atomization and minimal airflow I put down 4 extremely fine coats.  After coat #4 I have a satin finish with 50% dilution, or a slightly glossy finish with 45% dilution.  The print is vertical through the whole thing, there is just isn't enough liquid put down on each to allow any running.  With this system drying time between coats is only 10 to 15 minutes.  And miraculously, I almost never get any dust, hair, dirt or any other contamination, which is a marked change from when I was applying coatings with the print face up.

Thanks a lot for your info!

I was trying to use Bosch system similar to low end Wagner, but after reading your comments I have invested into Fuji HVLP and I don't regret that decision at all. It indeed works perfectly with prints hanging vertically and produces nice uniform result. BTW, I use cup #3 and it works OK for me too.

Mulis

Dward

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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 09:52:17 am »

The instructions for spraying Glamour II state that a gravity feed HVLP gun is necessary.  The Wagner is a suction type.   ClearShield Type C is much thinner than Glamour II (as has been noted), and will work fine in the Wagner with no thinning.

Using the Wagner, I spray with the canvas at about 30 degrees from horizontal, going first in a vertical pattern and then horizontally, without waiting for the canvas to fully dry.   Works fine.  Of course a better gun, like the Fuji, together with a good turbine, will work even better (certainly faster).

David V. Ward, Ph. D.
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David V. Ward Fine Art Photography
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bill t.

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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 05:31:18 pm »

I notice nobody has mentioned this, so just for the record if you are using a Wagner you need to be attentive the to air filters located on the turbine unit.

Since the air intakes are so close to the spray the filters get clogged quickly, which has an effect on performance.  Remove the screws on the back of the turbine and pull off the filter grid cover to expose the filter material.  Peel off a layer or two of paint-dandruffed filter material.  This will restore you air volume to full capacity.  When I looked online for replacement filters there was only one company selling them, when I placed the order they told me they could no longer get them from the manufacturer.  There are probably lots of good alternative materials that could be substituted.  The factory filter material is sort of layered and you can probably get a few peels before you are out of material.

I went out and bought a second Wagner because of this, assuming my original Wagner was going bad.  It was just clogged air filters.  Easy enough to visually monitor the buildup of dandruff on the too-small filter openings.

There's a new version of the Wagner with a "two stage" turbine.
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davisf8

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2009, 08:31:47 am »

Can you guys tell us what model of Fuji HVLP you are using?
Thanks, Alan
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bill t.

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« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2009, 09:06:17 pm »

Quote from: davisf8
Can you guys tell us what model of Fuji HVLP you are using?
Thanks, Alan
The non-gravity feed gun with the Q4 turbine.  Bought it mainly because I got a great deal on a slightly used one.  A Q3 turbine is probably more than adequate, and I know of people using the models just below the Q3 with perfect success, I think the 2903 and 2904 models.

If you want to be able to lay down heavy coats with the print (necessarily) laying flat, you should get the gravity feed gun.  But for the light coats allowed by having the print vertical during spraying, the standard gun is better because it holds more fluid and is less clog prone.  Even thought multiple coats on a vertical print is a lot of work, it is my preference because I almost never get dirt stuck on the surface, whereas I almost always get dirt in the horizontal spraying position.
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Deor

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« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2009, 09:16:39 pm »

Quote from: davisf8
Can you guys tell us what model of Fuji HVLP you are using?
Thanks, Alan
Hi Alan,
I purchased a Fuji mini-mite 3. It works flawlessly. Three coats with a 1/2 hour drying time in between works perfectly. I spray them all on the vertical and gallery wrap the canvases without seeing any cracking on the edges.  :-)
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Mulis Pictus

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Spraying technique for canvas
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2009, 03:41:34 am »

Quote from: davisf8
Can you guys tell us what model of Fuji HVLP you are using?
Thanks, Alan
I use Q4 turbine with default non-gravity pressurized  gun (I would buy mini mate 4, but they weren't available here, OTOH I feel better with quiet system when I work in the evening). I use the smallest nozzle and my prints are usually 24" wide. If I printed wider I might try to use the larger (default) nozzle, which might have greater coverage maybe?

Mulis

bill t.

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2009, 12:51:13 pm »

Quote from: Mulis Pictus
If I printed wider I might try to use the larger (default) nozzle, which might have greater coverage maybe?
My friend who sprays his art furniture a Fuji just told me that for the dilutions I am using (45:55 water:GlamourII & 25:75 water:Clearshield) I might be better off with the #3 cap, instead of the #4 that came with the Fuji.  But he's thinking in terms of a hyper-smooth finish, with canvas what we're really trying to do is just lay the paint down on a rough surface.

As laziness sets in I am getting more aggressive about how much spray I put down on a single pass, think I might stay with the #4.  With Clearshield I can now get a moderate gloss after a single coat, and start to fill in the valleys on finely textured Fredrix 777 after 3 or 4 coats.  Have found I need to be very attentive to my "scanning" speed when laying down heavier coats, takes practice and concentration and no cell phone.  I'm now working pretty close to the ragged edge of what's reasonable with a vertically mounted print.

FWIW when maxed out the #4 cap the Q4 will spray a swath of coating more than 14 inches 350mm wide, woohoo!  I'm not in that league yet.  With the needle out 14/16 of a turn it's more like 8 inches 200mm wide.

BTW the furniture guy also said he thought the canvas coating sprays were the most difficult-to-use paints he had ever seen.  Lucky us.
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Mulis Pictus

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« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2009, 03:04:58 am »

Quote from: bill t.
My friend who sprays his art furniture a Fuji just told me that for the dilutions I am using (45:55 water:GlamourII & 25:75 water:Clearshield) I might be better off with the #3 cap, instead of the #4 that came with the Fuji.  But he's thinking in terms of a hyper-smooth finish, with canvas what we're really trying to do is just lay the paint down on a rough surface.
He is probably right, I get very nice, nearly matte finish which I like a lot. When I reduce the speed of passes, I get more stuff and more glossy. So in the first pass I usually put more varnish to fill the canvas, which sheens more and the final pass I make with higher speed and more passes to make fine nearly matte surface.

Quote from: bill t.
As laziness sets in I am getting more aggressive about how much spray I put down on a single pass, think I might stay with the #4.  With Clearshield I can now get a moderate gloss after a single coat, and start to fill in the valleys on finely textured Fredrix 777 after 3 or 4 coats.  Have found I need to be very attentive to my "scanning" speed when laying down heavier coats, takes practice and concentration and no cell phone.  I'm now working pretty close to the ragged edge of what's reasonable with a vertically mounted print.
I found the speed crucial too. Once I made too slow pass so I got runs, fortunately it was possible to dry the surface and repair that spot in the next passes. One has to dry it soon enough though, before it cures too much.

Quote from: bill t.
FWIW when maxed out the #4 cap the Q4 will spray a swath of coating more than 14 inches 350mm wide, woohoo!  I'm not in that league yet.  With the needle out 14/16 of a turn it's more like 8 inches 200mm wide.

BTW the furniture guy also said he thought the canvas coating sprays were the most difficult-to-use paints he had ever seen.  Lucky us.


Mulis

bill t.

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« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2009, 01:19:00 pm »

Quote from: Mulis Pictus
He is probably right, I get very nice, nearly matte finish which I like a lot. When I reduce the speed of passes, I get more stuff and more glossy. So in the first pass I usually put more varnish to fill the canvas, which sheens more and the final pass I make with higher speed and more passes to make fine nearly matte surface.
That's the main justification for the more expensive HVLP units, the ability to finely and repeatably control the spray density.  With only glossy paint you can get anything from super-gloss to flat-matte.  Even when working on a lot of canvases at once it's easy to tweak the finish on each one to fit the subject and client.  No need to remix the paint, just adjust with the needle, airflow, and speed.

I often have several images stripped up on the same length of canvas, no problem at all to give completely different finishes to images only a few inches apart.  Adjust the spray then hold up a piece of foam core as a spray shield to protect the adjacent image.  My wife wants matte for her art giclee prints, I prefer a satin look for my photos, no problem at all to interleave these.  When mounting prints on Gatorfoam it saves huge amounts of time having several prints on the same strip.
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