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Author Topic: which sense has sensor + technology ?  (Read 15011 times)

eleanorbrown

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which sense has sensor + technology ?
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2009, 10:01:59 pm »

Hi Denis,  no I really didn't consider the new Phase camera system.  I'm so confident in my H2 and several prime lenses that I decided to stick with that.  My travel "system" is one H2 body and 3 primes..all very very sharp and reasonably fast and reasonably light....the 50, 80, and 100/ 2.2. All  that adds up to be reasonably lightweight and compact.  One of the lenses I'll be selling is the HC zoom.....great lens but too bulky and heavy for me.    Eleanor

Quote from: mcfoto
Hi
This might be off topic & since you are trying to save weight on your equipment. Have you thought about going to the Mamiya platform? This would give you access to the 28mm & maybe Phase would have some added incentive for you to switch over? I know my partner prefers the Mamiya over the H series because the lenses are lighter.
Thanks Denis
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csp

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« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2009, 08:44:44 am »

the high iso noise performance seems rather disappointing it is imho below what actual hasselblad backs deliver today without an extra fee. ( maybe + stands for  + marketing hype ). but  i think DR  is at least as important as noise. with a canon @ 3200 we still get  around 7-9 stops of useable dynamic range how does mf compare ?
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BernardLanguillier

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« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2009, 10:10:11 am »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
I'm trading my 45+ in for the 65+ because of the incredible image quality at iso 50 and 100 at FULL RESOLUTION.

Congratulations on your new camera.

Cheers,
Bernard

bradleygibson

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« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2009, 10:53:42 am »

Quote from: michael
(Except for the Direct Print button. There are only nine people in the whole world that need or have ever used it).
 

For my needs (fine art landscape) it does feel like the high ISO capabilities is like shutting down 8 of my 12 cylinders--but you're absolutely right--there are many others for which this is a perfectly acceptable compromise.  And for those folks, having the option may be a big advantage.

That being said, I also test drove a P65+ a couple of months ago (non Sensor+ version).  All my tests were done at full resolution, because, like Elenor, I do print large, and I'm not interested in a 15MP image from the back at any ISO, really.

But at full resolution, I did not find even its low-ISO noise performance to be on par with the P45+ in areas of smooth tonality (low frequency).  Of course the 20% increase in resolution was welcome, but I found the files to have a characteristic 'Dalsa' look that I see with the Leaf and Sinar 33Mpxl products which I do not like as much as the Phase/Kodak look.

Again, this is totally subjective.  Colleagues have commented that the Dalsa-based imagers deliver noise that looks much more film-like, or natural--and I agree, they do.  But for low-ISO outdoor/natural light work, I prefer not to see any grain.  Whatever Phase has done with the KAF-39000 has yet to be equalled to my eyes.

I have no argument or quibble with those who have fallen in love with the P65+.  I found the improved shooting speed to be much more welcome than I had expected, for example.  I just thought that folks might be interested in knowing that not everyone has fallen in love with the P65+ -- at least, not in its current offering.

Best,
-Brad
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 11:15:35 am by bradleygibson »
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ziocan

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« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2009, 04:56:35 pm »

Quote from: michael
(Except for the Direct Print button. There are only nine people in the whole world that need or have ever used it).

Michael
I thought they were less than nine, but apparently there are quite a bunch of fashion photographers that use that button to makes small prints, from tiny portable printers, for the fashion editors that still want to stick their polaroids and look how the "story" is progressing....
not mentioning event photographers that sell their images on the spot.
I do not know if that was worth to make a direct print button, but apparently Canon cares.
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eleanorbrown

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« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2009, 06:26:21 pm »

Brad, did you download the new 65+ image offered on the capture integration site...the image of the bar?  The smooth tonalities in this jpg sample really impressed me.  I printed out a portion of the image (sized large at about 300 dpi) and was again, quite impressed.  Think this jpg was from a production sample back. Eleanor

Quote from: bradleygibson


For my needs (fine art landscape) it does feel like the high ISO capabilities is like shutting down 8 of my 12 cylinders--but you're absolutely right--there are many others for which this is a perfectly acceptable compromise.  And for those folks, having the option may be a big advantage.

That being said, I also test drove a P65+ a couple of months ago (non Sensor+ version).  All my tests were done at full resolution, because, like Elenor, I do print large, and I'm not interested in a 15MP image from the back at any ISO, really.

But at full resolution, I did not find even its low-ISO noise performance to be on par with the P45+ in areas of smooth tonality (low frequency).  Of course the 20% increase in resolution was welcome, but I found the files to have a characteristic 'Dalsa' look that I see with the Leaf and Sinar 33Mpxl products which I do not like as much as the Phase/Kodak look.

Again, this is totally subjective.  Colleagues have commented that the Dalsa-based imagers deliver noise that looks much more film-like, or natural--and I agree, they do.  But for low-ISO outdoor/natural light work, I prefer not to see any grain.  Whatever Phase has done with the KAF-39000 has yet to be equalled to my eyes.

I have no argument or quibble with those who have fallen in love with the P65+.  I found the improved shooting speed to be much more welcome than I had expected, for example.  I just thought that folks might be interested in knowing that not everyone has fallen in love with the P65+ -- at least, not in its current offering.

Best,
-Brad
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Eleanor Brown
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gwhitf

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« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2009, 07:16:19 pm »

I support the development of the P65+ for one reason only: To be able to remove the viewfinder from my H2, and grab that stupid cardboard mask (from the old P45 days), and take that mask, and hurl it as far as humanly possible, and get back to looking thru a camera the proper way, and seeing the whole frame.

My hope is that one day, that P65+ will drop in price if they get the volume up, and the price down, and one by one, Contax users, and H users, and everyone else, can do that ceremonial "Removing Of the Mask", and they toss that damn thing in the campfire, never to be seen again.

That single item alone is why I want everybody here to order a P65+, and shoot their cameras like they ought to be shot.

Having a mask in the viewfinder is like buying a sports car, but then cutting a four inch long 2x4 and sticking it underneath the accelerator. It's just not right, in any way.
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guyharrison

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« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2009, 07:22:35 pm »

Quote from: bradleygibson


For my needs (fine art landscape) it does feel like the high ISO capabilities is like shutting down 8 of my 12 cylinders--but you're absolutely right--there are many others for which this is a perfectly acceptable compromise.  And for those folks, having the option may be a big advantage.

That being said, I also test drove a P65+ a couple of months ago (non Sensor+ version).  All my tests were done at full resolution, because, like Elenor, I do print large, and I'm not interested in a 15MP image from the back at any ISO, really.

But at full resolution, I did not find even its low-ISO noise performance to be on par with the P45+ in areas of smooth tonality (low frequency).  Of course the 20% increase in resolution was welcome, but I found the files to have a characteristic 'Dalsa' look that I see with the Leaf and Sinar 33Mpxl products which I do not like as much as the Phase/Kodak look.

Again, this is totally subjective.  Colleagues have commented that the Dalsa-based imagers deliver noise that looks much more film-like, or natural--and I agree, they do.  But for low-ISO outdoor/natural light work, I prefer not to see any grain.  Whatever Phase has done with the KAF-39000 has yet to be equalled to my eyes.

I have no argument or quibble with those who have fallen in love with the P65+.  I found the improved shooting speed to be much more welcome than I had expected, for example.  I just thought that folks might be interested in knowing that not everyone has fallen in love with the P65+ -- at least, not in its current offering.

Best,
-Brad


I am considering a move to a MFDB.  I also do mainly nature, landscape and cityscapes.  I said this in a different forum, but the sensor + binning to get 1/2 the resolution for higher ISO is not useful to me.  I would much prefer the long exposure capability of the p45+ (but I want the resolution of the p65).  This is much more useful for low light landscapes, star trails, light painting, extreme exposures of water/ocean to get the "fog" look, northern lights, very low light interiors, night shots.  These seem to be the type of creative uses that persons using the p65 in the field would be interested in (studio is a different story but even there, where you control the light, why go high ISO and low resolution?).  

No MF camera is a really useful sports, concert, theatre, photojournalism, street photography, or action tool and these are  the main things that high ISO quality matters for.  A DSLR is superior to the p65 every time for this.  To call the p65 high ISO/low resolution mode a "game changer" just makes no sense to me.  I can plop for a p45+ and a canon or nikon DSLR with many lenses for the extra cost of a p65.

I would love the high resolution, but until Phase can work out the long exposure benefit, the sensor+ is no incentive for me.

Just one photographer's thought.

Guy
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bcooter

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which sense has sensor + technology ?
« Reply #48 on: March 24, 2009, 07:31:50 pm »

Quote from: gwhitf
Having a mask in the viewfinder is like buying a sports car, but then cutting a four inch long 2x4 and sticking it underneath the accelerator. It's just not right, in any way.



Uh, no just a 1" long 2x4 underneath the accelerator.

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bradleygibson

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« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2009, 11:31:42 am »

No I didn't.  I shot with one for a day.

Optechs Seattle was kind enough to let me put one through its paces for an afternoon (Phase One AFD III, P65+ kit).  I shot and kept dozens of raw files from the back taken in different scenarios.

The concern I have about taking a JPEG file, is even the act of compressing as a JPEG can mask detail (particularly high frequency detail).

I'm upgrading my array at the moment, so my library is offline (I've actually been bitten by the Seagate 1.5TB HD firmware bug   ), so it may be a couple of weeks before I'm back on my feet again, but I'd be happy to share a raw file with you if you'd like to take a look at one.

Let me know,
-Brad

Quote from: eleanorbrown
Brad, did you download the new 65+ image offered on the capture integration site...the image of the bar?  The smooth tonalities in this jpg sample really impressed me.  I printed out a portion of the image (sized large at about 300 dpi) and was again, quite impressed.  Think this jpg was from a production sample back. Eleanor
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julius0377

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« Reply #50 on: March 25, 2009, 01:00:12 pm »

That comparison is not correct to scale, this is not either but by my document it should be "more" like this:

  )

Quote from: bcooter
Uh, no just a 1" long 2x4 underneath the accelerator.

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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #51 on: March 25, 2009, 03:45:12 pm »

Quote from: John Schweikert
Concerning yourself with the P65+ size compared to 645 frame all seems moot.

Mamiya AFDI/II/II has 94% viewfinder coverage
Contax 645 AF has 95% viewfinder coverage
Hassy H - "The Hv 90X viewfinder offers near 100% image view" which tells me nothing of truth.

So who cares if the P65+ sensor area matches the 645 frame size. Absolutely splitting hairs or fraction of hairs. You are not shooting cameras where you actually see 100% unless it's an RZ or AFi type camera. So for 645 it's back to how it was with film with the P65+.

We can talk about slightly different variations in film-gates, viewfinder coverage, etc etc etc.

Or you can do this...
1) pick up a Mamiya AFDI, II, III or Phase One 645 with NO mask installed
2) put a P65+ on it
3) frame and take a shot
4) see that the image matches what you framed

What you see (with no mask at all) is what you get... does anything else matter??

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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Steve Hendrix

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« Reply #52 on: March 25, 2009, 04:40:44 pm »

Quote from: bcooter

The above is not accurate, below is from our technical department. Not only is the purple not accurate, the artist used a fatter marker. But, as John mentions, it is essentially like shooting with film. There is no mask issue.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One


[attachment=12478:P1_P65_.png]
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« Reply #53 on: March 25, 2009, 04:43:11 pm »

Quote from: bradleygibson
No I didn't.  I shot with one for a day.

Optechs Seattle was kind enough to let me put one through its paces for an afternoon (Phase One AFD III, P65+ kit).  I shot and kept dozens of raw files from the back taken in different scenarios.

The concern I have about taking a JPEG file, is even the act of compressing as a JPEG can mask detail (particularly high frequency detail).

I'm upgrading my array at the moment, so my library is offline (I've actually been bitten by the Seagate 1.5TB HD firmware bug   ), so it may be a couple of weeks before I'm back on my feet again, but I'd be happy to share a raw file with you if you'd like to take a look at one.

Let me know,
-Brad


Files from the P65+ will continue to be enhanced with software upgrades. Certainly a pre-production file will not match a file from a current P65+ or one processed through soon to be released C1 4.7, which will improve high ISO and long exposure results.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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eleanorbrown

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« Reply #54 on: March 25, 2009, 05:32:05 pm »

Steve I am not at all interested in any of the sensor plus 15 meg.pixel files in a 60 meg.pixel back.  What I am interested in is clean (or nearly so) files at max. resolution at iso 100, 200, and 400.  Currently how do files with the 65+ at these iso speeds compare to comparable iso speeds in the 45+ for instance. (assuming they are processed with current Capture One software.  Many thanks, Eleanor

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
Files from the P65+ will continue to be enhanced with software upgrades. Certainly a pre-production file will not match a file from a current P65+ or one processed through soon to be released C1 4.7, which will improve high ISO and long exposure results.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
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bcooter

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« Reply #55 on: March 25, 2009, 05:44:32 pm »

Quote from: Steve Hendrix/Phase One
The above is not accurate, below is from our technical department. Not only is the purple not accurate, the artist used a fatter marker. But, as John mentions, it is essentially like shooting with film. There is no mask issue.

Steve Hendrix
Phase One


[attachment=12478:P1_P65_.png]


Boy you camera sales guys are sensitive.

Don't blame me, blame Yair, I just lifted his image.

Anyway, here in Cooter, Mo., we use those big china markers for our Kodak Gold Contact Sheets so I think those lines look pretty small.

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eronald

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« Reply #56 on: March 25, 2009, 05:45:37 pm »

Quote from: eleanorbrown
Steve I am not at all interested in any of the sensor plus 15 meg.pixel files in a 60 meg.pixel back.  What I am interested in is clean (or nearly so) files at max. resolution at iso 100, 200, and 400.  Currently how do files with the 65+ at these iso speeds compare to comparable iso speeds in the 45+ for instance. (assuming they are processed with current Capture One software.  Many thanks, Eleanor

From what I've seen for myself, you gain a bit on the P45+. Not  enough to make it a real upgrade.
I'm impatiently waiting for the P85+.

Edmund
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bradleygibson

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« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2009, 10:16:49 am »

Quote from: guyharrison
Just one photographer's thought.

Guy

I came to the very same conclusion.

In a nutshell:

+ faster shot-to-shot speed
+ 20% more resolution
- No long exposure capability
- Increased luminance noise at low ISO in available light over P45+
- Not-particularly-useful (for my work at least) 15MPxl mode for not-particularly-high high ISO performance
- Significant price jump

-Brad
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ixpressraf

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« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2009, 10:54:02 am »

i had exactly the same with upgrading to my 5dMk2.
 
plastic fantastic body
simply bad image quality compared to whatever digital back at low iso
bad autofocus
very easy to get "moving blurred" images because of bad body construction
miles away from the built of real body such as 1DsMk2/3/1
bad balance when using pro lenses etc....
but still it is the most bought camera among pro's.  
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tho_mas

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« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2009, 11:06:45 am »

Quote from: bradleygibson
I came to the very same conclusion.

In a nutshell:

+ faster shot-to-shot speed
+ 20% more resolution
- No long exposure capability
- Increased luminance noise at low ISO in available light over P45+
- Not-particularly-useful (for my work at least) 15MPxl mode for not-particularly-high high ISO performance
- Significant price jump

-Brad

And I am curious how well large format lenses will perform with the 6 micron chip at larger movements on view cameras.
Too, stitching with view cameras seems to be limited. The wide lenses' image circle do not cover a double shoot in portrait mode (admitted just with regard to the spec of the Digitars):
[attachment=12501:digitar_..._circles.jpg] [attachment=12503:imagecir..._digitar.jpg] [attachment=12504:imagecir...r_stitch.jpg]
As on the P45 at larger shift there is already significant loss of sharpness (still good enough, but there is of course) I doubt that there will be any advantage over the P45 in this particular field.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 11:11:49 am by tho_mas »
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