Phase P20 image quality?

[mjrichardson]

Hello there.

I'm looking at a P20 to fit to my 6008AF, has anyone got any comments on the quality of this back? I know it's not a top spec back compared with the new range of big MP backs but will I get decent images from it? I'm looking for a way in to MF digital and this seems a cheap option, I like the idea of the square sensor too. Are there any other options for a square sensor? Am I better saving up more and going for a P20+? I don't want to find I'm disappointed with the P20 if I go for it.

Any comments or suggestions much appreciated.

Thanks!

Mat.

[Graham Mitchell]

In case you are not aware, the P20 sensor is around 36x36mm which means that your viewfinder and lenses will be quite cropped. Here's a quick visual guide to the difference:



And if you crop to 4:3 you are left with only 12 MP.

Apart from those issues, the back is capable of very nice image quality at low ISOs.

There are no other square sensors that I know of.

[mjrichardson]

In case you are not aware, the P20 sensor is around 36x36mm which means that your viewfinder and lenses will be quite cropped. Here's a quick visual guide to the difference:

Hi.

Yes, I was aware of that, I'd like a 6x6 sensor but even if there was one I doubt I could afford it!

Thanks.

Mat

[mjrichardson]

Graham,

Can you rotate the Sinar you use or is it fixed in one orientation and you have to turn the body?

Cheers.

Mat.


Edited because I gave you an "e" at the end of your name! Sorry!

[Graham Mitchell]

Graham,

Can you rotate the Sinar you use or is it fixed in one orientation and you have to turn the body?

Cheers.

Mat.

Hi Mat,

I also edited my post with some new comments, in case you missed them.
Yes, I can rotate the Sinar in a few seconds. This is really a necessary feature, especially if you want to use a WLF!

[mjrichardson]

Hi Mat,

I also edited my post with some new comments, in case you missed them.
Yes, I can rotate the Sinar in a few seconds. This is really a necessary feature, especially if you want to use a WLF!

Hi Graham

Thanks for that, the camera came with a Sinar back adapter but I need to find out if it will fit any Sinar or if it is for a specific back. Do you know if there are different adapters needed for different model of back or are all the Sinar's mounted the same?

The P20 I have seen is a good price, I know I will be frustrated with the space in the WLF that I will not be using but I like the square format and would rarely crop down from that. I was worried that it is old technology as things move forward at such a pace.

Thanks for the help.

Mat.

[mjrichardson]

I've had a quote for a new P20+, £7890 + VAT at 15%, £2095 of that price is the back adapter. That just doesn't seem to make sense at all, the premium for fitting the back to a Rollei is pretty high. Are mounts for all platforms that expensive?

Thanks.

Mat.

[Graham Mitchell]

Thanks for that, the camera came with a Sinar back adapter but I need to find out if it will fit any Sinar or if it is for a specific back. Do you know if there are different adapters needed for different model of back or are all the Sinar's mounted the same?

There are different adapters for different back families. For example, all eMotion backs use the same adapters. If you email me detailed photos of the adapter, I might be able to identify it for you. graham (a] foto-z . com

The P20 I have seen is a good price, I know I will be frustrated with the space in the WLF that I will not be using but I like the square format and would rarely crop down from that. I was worried that it is old technology as things move forward at such a pace.

What was the price? Is it new? Is there a warranty? This forum will quickly let you know if it's a good deal

[Graham Mitchell]

I assume you are talking about a Phase One 'conversion'? The Sinar adapters are generally a LOT less, although the Rollei 6000 adapter is the most expensive.

[EricWHiss]

Hi,
I shoot with a p20 on a 6008 af.  It's great!  The phase workflow is going to be a big advantage over the Sinar. Unless you've got several cameras and want to switch back and forth, I don't see any plus to the Sinar.   If you have specific questions about the p20 / 6008 ask away and I'll try to answer
Eric

[mjrichardson]

Hi,
I shoot with a p20 on a 6008 af.  It's great!  The phase workflow is going to be a big advantage over the Sinar. Unless you've got several cameras and want to switch back and forth, I don't see any plus to the Sinar.   If you have specific questions about the p20 / 6008 ask away and I'll try to answer
Eric

Hi Eric.

I do have some questions if you don't mind?!

What is the integration like between the back and camera? Is it just a case of clipping the back on? Have you ever done any long exposures with the P20? Does the Phase 1 long exposure ability extend to the P20? Does the crop on the sensor bother you with the WLF? Can you get screens marked for the P20 coverage? How portable do you find the camera and back? I do a lot of traveling and would love to use it for remote location stuff, along with a DSLR as back up! How do you find the performance of the lenses when used with the P20? Are there any tips that really help with use?

I know that's a lot of questions! I am very interested in any info you may have.

Thanks a lot!

Mat.

[Graham Mitchell]

The phase workflow is going to be a big advantage over the Sinar.

Well, I have to disagree there. Now that Sinar uses DNG raw files, you can process the files in over 40 raw processor applications. See http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/supporters.html
I can't think of a more ubiquitous or advanced raw processor than Photoshop itself. Actually I have no idea why people would even want to use a proprietary raw processor like C1 for anything but tethering (and yes I used it for a few years and liked it but it can't compete with Photoshop and almost every file will end up in PS sooner or later anyway).

Unless you've got several cameras and want to switch back and forth, I don't see any plus to the Sinar.

Well there are some pluses. The P20 runs at about 45 frames a minute, whereas the e54 is around 60. Also the e54 offers a larger rectangular sensor which is obviously very useful for most work. The Sinar comes with a standard 3yr warranty compared to 1yr for Phase (afaik), and the e54 has a solid state memory built in which means you often won't even need to use a CF card. It also has a liveview mode built in.

[EricWHiss]

Well, I have to disagree there. Now that Sinar uses DNG raw files, you can process the files in over 40 raw processor applications. See http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/supporters.html
I can't think of a more ubiquitous or advanced raw processor than Photoshop itself. Actually I have no idea why people would even want to use a proprietary raw processor like C1 for anything but tethering (and yes I used it for a few years and liked it but it can't compete with Photoshop and almost every file will end up in PS sooner or later anyway).



Well there are some pluses. The P20 runs at about 45 frames a minute, whereas the e54 is around 60. Also the e54 offers a larger rectangular sensor which is obviously very useful for most work. The Sinar comes with a standard 3yr warranty compared to 1yr for Phase (afaik), and the e54 has a solid state memory built in which means you often won't even need to use a CF card. It also has a liveview mode built in.

Graham,
Don't you have to first convert your two part Sinar files to DNG before you can put them into to other programs?  That's what I mean about a less efficient work flow.   Phase files drop right into a lot of programs like Lightroom.   I've never shot tethered with Sinar so can't comment, except to say that I could not imagine it being easier than with the Capture One / Phase solution. About half of what I shoot with my Rollei is in studio and I prefer to shoot tethered. This is a huge advantage.   I'll also say that the P20 can shoot ISO 800 and produce usable files (either with conversion to black and white, or by outputting to half size).   The phase p20 has no noise at base ISO.   I prefer the look of the phase file as well - much closer to what I want without work.  

As far as Sinar having a larger square sensor - are you sure? What's the physical size of the sensor used?    

Eric

[Graham Mitchell]

Graham,
Don't you have to first convert your two part Sinar files to DNG before you can put them into to other programs?  That's what I mean about a less efficient work flow.

Actually, no. When shooting tethered, the files are saved to hard disk as DNG. You can immediately open them in Lightroom or anything else without a conversion step.

When importing images from a CF card the same thing happens.

As far as Sinar having a larger square sensor - are you sure? What's the physical size of the sensor used?

I wrote 'larger rectangular sensor, meaning that it is 48x36mm rather than 36x36mm.

[EricWHiss]

Hi Eric.

I do have some questions if you don't mind?!

What is the integration like between the back and camera? Is it just a case of clipping the back on? Have you ever done any long exposures with the P20? Does the Phase 1 long exposure ability extend to the P20? Does the crop on the sensor bother you with the WLF? Can you get screens marked for the P20 coverage? How portable do you find the camera and back? I do a lot of traveling and would love to use it for remote location stuff, along with a DSLR as back up! How do you find the performance of the lenses when used with the P20? Are there any tips that really help with use?

I know that's a lot of questions! I am very interested in any info you may have.

Thanks a lot!

Mat.

Hi Mat,
Yes the p20 goes on the 6008AF just like a film back, and in fact its just easy to put on and off - no cables. You could even carry the film backs with you and go back and forth.   As far as integration goes - very smooth but little EXIF data is recorded.  The p20 is not going to give you a clean file longer than about 15 seconds exposure.  All the stuff about phase backs and long exposure is true but only with the plus series backs.    The phase backs that were sold as part of the digital bundle were p20 non plus versions so its not too likely to find a plus back already on a rollei mount.  But if you order one, definitely go for a plus!    I have several focusing screens - on one I used a felt tipped pen and marked the crop outside - so that it was translucent - and had another one made for me by Bill Maxwell.  Both work fine.  The camera with the p20 back is just as portable as with film.  Really great - I take it hiking and on trips.     The Rollei lenses are as you know excellent.   With the p20 its really easy to inspect closely and pixel peep the files. You won't be disappointed.

Eric

[pss]

i used to own the 6008/P20 combo...great files, bulletproof tether workflow, bulletproof function.....the back does not talk to the camera, (the iso has to be set on both for example....).....great solution.....amazing lenses....

BUT: a 5DII gives a better file much easier to handle, high iso,......at a 4:3, 2:3 ratio and the P20 cropped....pixel for pixel the P20 wins, but all in all....no comparison....

[EricWHiss]

Actually, no. When shooting tethered, the files are saved to hard disk as DNG. You can immediately open them in Lightroom or anything else without a conversion step.

When importing images from a CF card the same thing happens.



I wrote 'larger rectangular sensor, meaning that it is 48x36mm rather than 36x36mm.

The p20 is 37x37mm.    I guess if you want square then it doesn't matter. Crop is similar.    Sinar makes a square back too right?

As far as importing images - you still have to do a 2 step process. First through the Sinar application to get DNG then into lightroom or whatever.

[Graham Mitchell]

Sinar makes a square back too right?

Not that I know of.

As far as importing images - you still have to do a 2 step process. First through the Sinar application to get DNG then into lightroom or whatever.

Not quite sure what you mean. As you shoot tethered, your images are saved to the hard disk in DNG format. You can continue to process them in Exposure, of course, or open them in any other app directly. The only 'extra work' is opening the second app, if you so choose, but that wait of a few seconds is more than offset by the ability to choose your raw processing environment. C1 doesn't offer a faster workflow than Exposure, just less flexibility. Does that make sense?

[Chris Livsey]

I run a P20 on a 'blad body. I was very concerned about the crop before purchase. Phase supply a mask to fit over the screen which is translucent so you do not see just the crop but the area surrounding it. As Leica M shooter this was familiar territory and I adapted quickly. In use I have not found the crop screen any problem. I did acquire a 40mm lens as I did miss a wide angle (widest previously a 50mm) but the 40mm Zeiss is such a good lens this was to my benefit as well. The freedom from not changing magazines every 12 shots was quite liberating, don't underestimate it if you have been a MF user. In use it's just like a magazine except with the 'blad a sync cord. Quality wise I love it. I am an amateur so I don't look for billboard enlargements and have not yet run out of resolution for what I want. The problems I have had have been camera shake, I like to think mirror    , when hand held visible below 1/125th, it was there in film but not seen and the lack of quality at higher iso. I don't touch 400 asa unless it's essential but then I shot at 160 with film and didn't miss it, expectations change.

[mjrichardson]

Thanks Eric, Graham and PSS!

Good info, it sounds like it has real quality as base ISO and with the lenses that I know have amazing quality will combine to make it a winner, obviously it's a cheap solution for me and not cutting edge but will do the job. I understand about the camera not talking to the back, something I can live with as I tend to make notes of how I shoot.

Thanks again for all the help, it's good to know there are solutions for everyone, one mans pride and joy isn't necessarily going to be anothers, different solutions for different people, it's all good!!

Cheers.

Mat