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Author Topic: New to medium format.  (Read 4519 times)

photolinia

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« on: March 20, 2009, 01:39:47 pm »

Hello,

This is my first post to this forum, so I'm sure most of the questions I am about to ask have already been discussed many times before...  

I have only been using Nikon DSLR's up until now, but have recently become curious about medium format systems.
The temptation to experience a really high resolution / large sensor camera has been too much to resist, so I signed up to
rent an H3D2-39 next weekend from a local Calumet store in Santa Ana, California.  They may or may not have a 39, but they definitely have a 31...

I've rented some lenses and other equipment from them before, and their prices seem reasonable.  Right now they are charging $250 for H3D2-31
and $300 for H3D2-39, which I think is a pretty good deal considering that I get to pick it up on Friday evening and drop it off on Monday morning...

It comes with an 80mm lens and a software set.

I also would like to try out a P1 system, but it is unavailable at our local Calumet store - I will have to check out the LA location...

I have several questions:

1 - What are some of the good places to rent or buy medium format digital systems from in southern California area other than Calumet?
The guys I dealt with in Santa Ana seemed mostly ignorant about Hasselblad and P1.  I would like to be able to ask a lot of questions
and get good support if I decide to splurge and buy something medium format  in the future.

2 - Besides H3D2-39 and phase one with the 39Mp back (I think it's called P45+) what other brands would be worth looking into at a similar
performance / price level?  I would like to try as many different systems as possible...  Does Mamiya have its own camera/back system with more than
22Mpix?  Also a stupid question - what is the difference between H3D2 and H3D?

3 - Do all Hasselblad models only have leaf shutters and are all of them limited to 1/800 shutter speed?  It would seem like that might be somewhat limiting when shooting outside on a bright day even with ISO50...  Also, I'm not sure I fully understand the benefit of a higher sync speed.
I have only used 1/125 to 1/250 when shooting in a studio, slower shutter speeds when shooting outside to let more ambient light in...  but why go beyond
that?  Isn't flash duration something like 1/800 of a sec or less?

Anyway, lots of questions.  Sorry...  
Any answers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated!!
Thank you.
-ilya
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2009, 03:40:02 pm »

Quote from: photolinia
2 - Besides H3D2-39 and phase one with the 39Mp back (I think it's called P45+) what other brands would be worth looking into at a similar
performance / price level?  I would like to try as many different systems as possible...  Does Mamiya have its own camera/back system with more than
22Mpix?  Also a stupid question - what is the difference between H3D2 and H3D?

You should definitely check out the Sinar eMotion75 in that case. The Sinar backs are different from Phase and Leaf in that they use an adapter system, so you can use the same back on a Hasselblad H2 one day, and a Contax 645 the next. Hasselblad do a similar range which I believe is called 'CF'.

Quote from: photolinia
3 - Do all Hasselblad models only have leaf shutters and are all of them limited to 1/800 shutter speed?

Yes, afaik. (For the H series). The only faster leaf shutter is on the Rollei 6008/Hy6/Afi platform (they all use the same leaf shutter lenses which can go up to 1/1000).

Quote from: photolinia
Also, I'm not sure I fully understand the benefit of a higher sync speed.
I have only used 1/125 to 1/250 when shooting in a studio, slower shutter speeds when shooting outside to let more ambient light in...  but why go beyond
that?  Isn't flash duration something like 1/800 of a sec or less?

If you are mixing sunlight with flash, and the sunlight demands a fast shutter speed like 1/800, then you need a shutter which can allow the use of flash at that speed. Focal plane shutters can't. It can also be useful in a studio environment when you want to minimize the effect of any modelling lights or ambient light.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 03:41:11 pm by foto-z »
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photolinia

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« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2009, 04:34:18 pm »

Thanks guys!!

Makes sense about fast sync speed and shooting in the day light with fill flash, just have not had to deal with it personally yet...
Do all P1 cameras have focal plane shutters?
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dalethorn

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« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2009, 04:39:54 pm »

If I were doing this, I'd get ahold of someone at Samy's who knows the tech, and wait until a good time when that person isn't really busy. And even though Santa Ana is close to the Bristol St. store, I'd probably be talking to someone in the Fairfax store.
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Graham Mitchell

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« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2009, 04:41:56 pm »

Quote from: photolinia
Do all P1 cameras have focal plane shutters?

Yes.
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photolinia

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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2009, 04:42:06 pm »

Quote from: dalethorn
If I were doing this, I'd get ahold of someone at Samy's who knows the tech, and wait until a good time when that person isn't really busy. And even though Santa Ana is close to the Bristol St. store, I'd probably be talking to someone in the Fairfax store.
Thanks.
I live in Laguna Beach, but travel to LA often.  So going the LA calumet or Sammy's location is not a problem.  Do you happen to know a particular store or person that I could talk to?  
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Jozef Zajaz

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2009, 06:48:27 pm »

Quote from: photolinia
Thanks guys!!

Makes sense about fast sync speed and shooting in the day light with fill flash, just have not had to deal with it personally yet...
Do all P1 cameras have focal plane shutters?


Yes all p1 cameras do have it. The phase one camera is actually a Mamiya AFD III thats rebranded with the phase logo.

Currently Mamiya/phase only have focal plane shutters which goes up to 1/4000s sync speed 1/125s. But there are new leaf shutter lenses on its way, i think the first one will be starting to ship out this summer (the 80mm lens) a 100mm and 55mm will follow this fall.

The Hasselblad H system only has leaf shutter lenses which limits them to 1/800s depending on your shooting style this could or could not be a problem.

I choosed the p1 system knowing there will be leaf shutters so. I like the option to go 1/4000 as i do shots in bright sun with big apartures.

Also the p1/mamiya system has alot of cheap used GREAT glass  Just check out ebay or "for" sale here.

The mamiya leaf shutter lenses will probably be cheaper than the H system lenses.

Good luck finding a back. I would recommend you give the P1 system a try. I compared it to the h3d but my choice fell for the p1 because it simply worked better. I know a couple of photographers that have switched from H3d to the p1 system.

A really good thing aswell is that i can use c1por (the p1 software) for my canon files aswell. Hasselblad and phocus doesn't allow this.

Cheers!

Edit: h3d only goes to 32second exposure think p1 does 1hr. Also p30+ does iso 1600 compared to h3d31II that goes up to 800
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 06:57:54 pm by Jozef Zajaz »
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Doug Peterson

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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2009, 10:44:06 pm »

Quote from: Jozef Zajaz
Yes all p1 cameras do have it. The phase one camera is actually a Mamiya AFD III thats rebranded with the phase logo.

Just a quick note that while Phase One backs can be ordered to fit the Phase One 645 (a.k.a. Mamiya AFD III as noted) they can also be ordered for the Contax, Hasselblad V, Fuji 680III, Rollei 6008, and Hasselblad H1/H2.

In fact my main experience is in Miami and here at least 75% of the digital back rental market is Hasselblad H2s paired with P30+ or P45+ digital backs. This is because the shooting styles here demand leaf shutters (beach and other location mid-day high-fashion shooting) and the digital techs overwhelmingly prefer Capture One.

Leaf shutter versus focal plane shutter is one of the most fundamental choices you need to make. The Phase system is coming out with leaf shutter lenses and will at that point have both available. However, it's always best to make such investments on what is available to purchase today and not what is promised in the future. So if you need high speed sync then the Rollei, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, or Mamiya RZ are your options. If you do not need high-speed sync then there is an argument to be made that every lens you buy will be larger, heavier, and more expensive, and more prone to fail than they otherwise would have been.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
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photolinia

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2009, 01:04:08 am »

Thank you guys!  Very interesting info.  
Now that everybody is coming out wth the 50M+ backs and the 39M backs are going down in price, does it make sense to try to find a well priced used 39M unit?  How reliable are medium format systems these days?  I've heard some horror stories about how often they used to break down, but perhaps things are better these days...  
Are there any particular places I should look to find used medium format equipment?  How good is factory support for these cameras?  
thanks!
-ilya
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flashfredrikson

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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2009, 04:32:51 am »

Hi there,
I shoot fashion and use phase one backs (p30, p30+, p45+) on Hassy H2, 503 and Mamiya RZ
I like those backs as they tether easily and the workflow using C1 Pro 3 is rock solid.

Quote from: dougpetersonci
digital techs overwhelmingly prefer Capture One.

Unfortunately C1 Pro 4 still lacks a lot of the "pro" features of the old version, crashes very often and needs a couple of work arounds, so I guess it would have been better to say " digital techs overwhelmingly prefer Capture One 3", at least none of the digital techs I work with uses C1 4, and everybody is angry they have to use it now with the p65+
Just check the phase one forum and read some of the posts there, you wil see what I mean

Quote from: photolinia
How reliable are medium format systems these days?  I've heard some horror stories about how often they used to break down, but perhaps things are better these days...

I saw everything going down, which possibly could on the Hassy H2 as well as on the backs. From broken shutter releases, broken curtains in the camera, faulty batteries for the H2, software failures... and repairs on the H2 are expensive.
The P30 once didn't recognize the batteries anymore and had to be repaired in Denmark. P30+ showed a kind of centerfold line running through the image top to bottom and had to be sent to denmark, was fixed just to become worse after a while. P45+ fried two mac laptops while tethered and had to be sent to Phase for repairs as well.

I think that's just what's going to happen with this electronical stuff, no matter who is the manufacturer, just a question of time.
On the other hand, the rz and hassy 503 never ever let me down.

If you don't need leaf shutters I would really consider the contax 645. If you need them, with the phase backs the H1/H2 is the way to go at the moment, IMO.


cheers,
martin
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Jozef Zajaz

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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2009, 04:42:28 am »

Quote from: dougpetersonci
Just a quick note that while Phase One backs can be ordered to fit the Phase One 645 (a.k.a. Mamiya AFD III as noted) they can also be ordered for the Contax, Hasselblad V, Fuji 680III, Rollei 6008, and Hasselblad H1/H2.

In fact my main experience is in Miami and here at least 75% of the digital back rental market is Hasselblad H2s paired with P30+ or P45+ digital backs. This is because the shooting styles here demand leaf shutters (beach and other location mid-day high-fashion shooting) and the digital techs overwhelmingly prefer Capture One.

Leaf shutter versus focal plane shutter is one of the most fundamental choices you need to make. The Phase system is coming out with leaf shutter lenses and will at that point have both available. However, it's always best to make such investments on what is available to purchase today and not what is promised in the future. So if you need high speed sync then the Rollei, Hasselblad V, Hasselblad H, or Mamiya RZ are your options. If you do not need high-speed sync then there is an argument to be made that every lens you buy will be larger, heavier, and more expensive, and more prone to fail than they otherwise would have been.

Doug Peterson (e-mail Me)
__________________
Head of Technical Services, Capture Integration
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up


One way to go if you really need the high flash sync today. Buy the P1 with mamiya afd fit. And then get the afd - RZ adapter and pick up a body + lens on ebay. Then u get both 1/800s and 1/4000s. The RZ will be manual focus though.
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Jozef Zajaz

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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2009, 04:46:36 am »

Quote from: flashfredrikson
Hi there,
I shoot fashion and use phase one backs (p30, p30+, p45+) on Hassy H2, 503 and Mamiya RZ
I like those backs as they tether easily and the workflow using C1 Pro 3 is rock solid.



Unfortunately C1 Pro 4 still lacks a lot of the "pro" features of the old version, crashes very often and needs a couple of work arounds, so I guess it would have been better to say " digital techs overwhelmingly prefer Capture One 3", at least none of the digital techs I work with uses C1 4, and everybody is angry they have to use it now with the p65+
Just check the phase one forum and read some of the posts there, you wil see what I mean



I saw everything going down, which possibly could on the Hassy H2 as well as on the backs. From broken shutter releases, broken curtains in the camera, faulty batteries for the H2, software failures... and repairs on the H2 are expensive.
The P30 once didn't recognize the batteries anymore and had to be repaired in Denmark. P30+ showed a kind of centerfold line running through the image top to bottom and had to be sent to denmark, was fixed just to become worse after a while. P45+ fried two mac laptops while tethered and had to be sent to Phase for repairs as well.

I think that's just what's going to happen with this electronical stuff, no matter who is the manufacturer, just a question of time.
On the other hand, the rz and hassy 503 never ever let me down.

If you don't need leaf shutters I would really consider the contax 645. If you need them, with the phase backs the H1/H2 is the way to go at the moment, IMO.


cheers,
martin


Agree on c1 3 vs c1 4 pro. Hopefully the will fix the bugs soon. Ask the techs about what they think about phocus

I did a friday-sunday shoot (8hrs each day) with p65+ and c1 4pro a month ago and we only had 1 crash the entire weekend.

One of the other photographers were using the h3d50II and phocus and i lost count on the number of crashes or hangups.

One thing I like about p1 is that it is a open system they don't close it down like hasselblad does.

I think if u buy a p1 with value added warranty the let you switch mount 1 time first year.
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