Printing hurdles

[reburns]

Hi, I’m appealing for some community help and direction to become more successful printing, which I haven’t had with a 24” Z310.  What I’m hoping for are suggestions for checks, tests, and homework type assignments.  I realized folks have their own lives to live and this is a big thing to pose to a forum and will be happy to repay the favor and effort however possible.

Current state of affairs:
1. started a web log of efforts, it’s a little rambling but the hope is it becomes useful for tracking changes
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/Z3100/

2. this is my first experience inkjet photo printing and assume there’s a substantial learning curve (remember when you started?).  For the duration, I’ve only blamed my methods, since it obviously can work for others.  It initially seemed that a Z3100 was a reasonable choice for a newbie to get up and running.

3. frustration is running high with this, but I’m ready to knuckle down this next week to come to successful conclusion.  I’m on domestic travel Mar 23-31.

A recent call to my dealer tech support had be check some of the more obvious settings, and made the comment, “The Z3100 and drivers have been buggy.  How about an Epson 7900?  It’s a dream.”  I first disregarded the comment, but given the level of frustration I’ve had I’m now seriously considering it; something with longer development history.  But what about Epson ink clogging?  Will I trade one set of issues and a wad of cash for another?  Better to hire an expert to sit down with me?  There’s a $500 Epson rebate ending March 31, and remember I’ll be traveling.

Given that, I’m wondering what to check and test.  What would you have me try, read, and test print?

Thanks so much, Ralph

[Geoff Wittig]

Hi, I’m appealing for some community help and direction to become more successful printing, which I haven’t had with a 24” Z310.  What I’m hoping for are suggestions for checks, tests, and homework type assignments.  I realized folks have their own lives to live and this is a big thing to pose to a forum and will be happy to repay the favor and effort however possible.

Current state of affairs:
1. started a web log of efforts, it’s a little rambling but the hope is it becomes useful for tracking changes
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/Z3100/

2. this is my first experience inkjet photo printing and assume there’s a substantial learning curve (remember when you started?).  For the duration, I’ve only blamed my methods, since it obviously can work for others.  It initially seemed that a Z3100 was a reasonable choice for a newbie to get up and running.

3. frustration is running high with this, but I’m ready to knuckle down this next week to come to successful conclusion.  I’m on domestic travel Mar 23-31.

A recent call to my dealer tech support had be check some of the more obvious settings, and made the comment, “The Z3100 and drivers have been buggy.  How about an Epson 7900?  It’s a dream.”  I first disregarded the comment, but given the level of frustration I’ve had I’m now seriously considering it; something with longer development history.  But what about Epson ink clogging?  Will I trade one set of issues and a wad of cash for another?  Better to hire an expert to sit down with me?  There’s a $500 Epson rebate ending March 31, and remember I’ll be traveling.

Given that, I’m wondering what to check and test.  What would you have me try, read, and test print?

Thanks so much, Ralph

Don't give up so fast. I've been delighted with the Z3100 after two years and have no interest in going back to Epson, where head clogs are a fact of life. Yes, the Z3100 driver can be a bit squirrely, but I've gotten consistently good and predictable results with it. I would start with a pack of cheap paper, and generate a profile using the on-board spectro. Then make some test prints using a target image like Bill Atkinson's, or your own version. Relentless application of logic helps to track down where the problem is. From your link, it looks like you mostly have a profiling issue; you may be double-color-managing or using a bad profile. HP's print preview window is useful for making sure the photo is correctly oriented on the page, but it is not color managed, so don't use it to judge how the print will look on the page.
For what it's worth, the trickiest part of printing on many papers is just figuring out what HP paper preset to use when profiling and printing.

[dgberg]

Read your entire blog and the only thing I see missing is Lightroom? YOMV
I have the Epson 7900 and 3800. They both print like a dream through Lightroom.  I used to print from my pc through PS2 or Capture NX and results were ok to good. When I got my new Mac Pro and started printing through Lightroom, what a difference. Don't get me wrong 3 things changed. New computer,new printer and new software so others may say its a combination of the 3 which it very well may be.
I love the 7900 so much I  am going to add a 9900 this summer for my new Canvas Gallery business.

Dan Berg
www.bergscustomingfurniture.com
www.bergscanvasgallery.com (Coming this spring!)

[a.lorge]

nevermind, listen to the experts  

[awsstudios]

hi,
i looked at all of your screen shots and most everything i saw looked good.

weather using lightroom or photoshop, they are both just two ways of getting the same thing. If done properly you should be able to get good prints out of both.

i don't see that it matters if you use adobe(1998)rgb or Prophoto or not, the printer/Rip/Driver should be able to convert colors just fine. Prophoto just keeps a larger gamut for you to use in the future if you get a better printer. Ie- it can't hurt you. although it can't hurt to just try the smaller profiles just to see how it works.

that is good that you watched "camera to print" they do an awesome job with the videos and know exactly what they are talking about.

the only thing i would recommend is in the print dialogue box is to see what difference it makes between "perceptual" (which is how it was set for the screen shot i saw) and "Relative colorimetric". perceptual can make make out of gamut colors muddy, depending on which colors and how much of your image is out of gamut.

also, i assume you are using the built  in spectrophotometer. you might try creating new profiles and check the settings for that

i have not much experience with the z3100 much less hp printers in general, so i am not sure if the profiles the printer comes with are any good or not
although i don't have much experience with HP printers, i do have a lot of experience with Epson Printers and color management.
my main printer i am currently using is the Epson 9900. I am loving it aside from a few hiccups every now and then with the heads getting clogged. other than that i am loving the 9900. faster, easier, larger and cheaper if you get the 700ml cartridges. the canned profiles are pretty much perfect on the 900 series.

Regarding the current rebate on the epson 900 series, the ending date of the rebate only means that it is ending because three days after the rebate ends there will be a larger rebate or bigger promotion, and you will get more for cheaper. i would not worry about that, and continue trying to iron out your problems a little longer. If you do decide on getting a new printer the 900 series is great.
ps. in my opinion, Epson printers are the easiest to learn

-andrew

[Wayne Fox]

So glancing at your blog, it appears this printer is 1.5 years old, and you still have 50% capacity of the starter cartridges?  This means almost no ink usage, since it takes about 50% to charge the ink lines initially.  Seems this means your ink is very old, and could be settling out.  "dark" and "muddy" are not usually associated with clogs and bad ink, usually double profiling or incorrect settings, but such little usage may be problematic.  

I assume you've printed a known target file to insure it isn't something you are doing in your workflow before you send the files to the printer?  Might want to download this one and print it out ...
http://www.outbackprint.com/printinginsigh...i048/essay.html.  If it looks good then perhaps it's your image workflow, if it looks like everything else then a setting is wrong, a profile is corrupt, or somehow the internal profiles don't jive with the computer stored ones. ( I think this can be a problem with the HP's).

Have you had the printer calibrate the paper type and then make a profile?  Do the colors of the target when it makes it's own profile look OK?  

This could easily be a bad or incorrect profile.  A friend setting up an ipf6100 was having similar issues, we uninstalled the printer drivers, reinstalled them, made a new profile and problem solved.

Using ProPhotoRGB shouldn't be an issue. As long as your workflow is from RAW to 16bit/ProPhotoRGB, there isn't a reason to use sRGB or AdobeRGB.  There is no reason the Color Management System could map to the printer space better from those than from ppRGB.

As far as the 7900, I've always felt the learning curve for the Epson is the easiest, but both the Canon and HP are capable of very good output once you understand how to set things up.  Once you figure it out then it is just as easy.

[Ernst Dinkla]

Current state of affairs:
1. started a web log of efforts, it’s a little rambling but the hope is it becomes useful for tracking changes
http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/Z3100/


Thanks so much, Ralph

One of the things you should do first is going to the Start>Settings>Printer+Faxes>Z3100 driver and make a preferenced=default paper setting that has Color + Application controlled color set. In Vista the path goes through the configuration menu. Save it also as a printing shortcut. The driver has a habit to return to the factory default and that has driver/printer CM on which isn't HP's own recommendation.  You can make more printing short cuts and they usually stick better than individual settings in the driver like done from Qimage.

Then I wonder whether your images have a CMYK space assigned or go through a CMYK step one way or another. I'm not familiar with Solidworks but most CAD programs but some do not have RGB color definitions at all, not to mention color management. The Z3100 driver is used as an RGB device in the color management of Qimage and Photoshop etc, any CMYK file thrown at it will go through an RGB>CMYK>RGB conversion that makes mud. Qimage can't handle CMYK images so it can't happen with Qimage.

I see no mention at all of what profiles are assigned to your images in the blog. You have next to the latest firmware also the latest driver + profiles ? If your unedited images are sRGB or AdobeRGB assigned from a good camera, the printer is calibrated with the suitable HP media preset for that HP paper and then printed on the same paper through Qimage with the HP profile that comes with it selected in Qimage's CM and the rendering set at perceptual or relative colormetric + BPC, then I expect it should give a good print and not a muddy print. That avoids the extra step of custom profile creation possible with the Z3100 to get an idea where the fault may be. If it's not correct then there's something with the image itself or the printer has a hardware problem. If it is alright then the extra step of profile creation can be added.


met vriendelijke groeten, Ernst Dinkla

New: Dinkla Canvas Wrap Actions for Photoshop
http://www.pigment-print.com/dinklacanvaswraps/index.html

Try: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Wide_Inkjet_Printers/

[reburns]

Hello folks, thanks so much for the effort made in the replies, and am digesting every comment.  I gladly owe everyone beer, or teach ice climbing.  I will experiment tonight after an 8- (maybe 6-hour?) workday.  Here are some current answers to the input:

Basic settings:  5D now 5DII > ACR 16-bit ProPhoto into CS4 > and normally use Perceptual rendering.  I try to do all of this on the XPx64 machine because it's connected to the fancy monitor.

Geoff:  One of the repetitious mentions here is paper presets.  I've only used HP factory presets thus far because I have been under the impression that since I don't have APS the factory presets are better.  That said the other day I was scratching my head trying to find HP's factory preset for the Matte Litho.   I will make my own presets tonight then.  While doing this debugging, the part that peeves me is when I think I'm doing everything exactly the same and seem to get different results.  

One tiny curveball using the Bill Atkinson test print is that I'd like to composite it next to photos of mine for printing test strips, but his is in LAB color and I've been using ProPhoto.  It's my understanding that LAB is a super huge colorspace, and ProPhoto is a more efficient file size but wholly adequate colorspace.  

Dan Berg:  I haven't made the jump to Lightroom because there's always another software package to learn, and because I am most frequently processing a few choice shots instead of batch processing a whole series.  Same engine, different print interface?  Plus I just picked up Schewe's ACR/CS4 book since I love his stuff, and then started wondering learning Capture One was a better time investment.  BTW, if you get serious about selling your 7900, let's talk.  When I first went printer shopping I did appreciate how the Epson better held separation within shadows since I love low-key images.

Andrew:  I will try some RelCo rendering tonight and creating my own profiles (I guess the HP lingo is "preset").  As far as the $$ switch to a fresh start with another marquee, it's Epson's fiscal year end so I wasn't sure about the rebate continuing right away, and the real biggie is that the Z3200 is hitting the streets so the resale for my Z3100 is dropping out.

Wayne:  I wonder if I can pull the partially used cartridges, shake them up and reinstall them.  I don’t think too much ink is consumed in HP’s initial charge, but what you are seeing is a guy who’s filled a folder with test strips instead of filling the walls with prints.  Last, how would you feel about the 7900 and clogging/cleaning at this point?

Ernst:  I have long read your Yahoo groups posts, thank you.  Some of your insights are over my head, and I’m satisfied if I can get usable output sooner and perfect it later.  I do use “printer and faxes” for making more sticky settings.  That is a Windoze thing where settings are stickier made from control panel than the applications.  I am only working RGB, and mostly ProPhoto.  Using HP’s firmware dated 2009.02.10, but don’t see downloadable presets anymore for the two papers I’m experimenting (I think they use to be there).  I have not been consistent using Black Point compensation, so I will do starting now.  The other day I was poking around the HP website, and didn’t find a collective repository of presets.  There is a download for Photo papers and Fine Art papers, but why isn’t the Satin or Matte Litho amongst them?  I can hit Synchronize in the print utility, but don’t know the file date of the Matte Litho Preset.

The only big thing with the CAD program problem is that I cannot have the printer connected to the network when I do CAD work, or the CAD will lock up.  It’s more of a PIA than a printing limitation.

However, my last effort a few days ago still isn’t resolved, getting the print driver to recognize the loaded paper. (http://www.ascent-design.com/photo/Z3100/2009.03.10/x64_Paper_Error/index.html) That started to overheat my frustration circuits.  I have to get to (enginerding) work now, and will roll up my printing sleeves tonight.

My photography is slowly getting better, and my climbing is eroding rapidly.  Choices.  Another tidbit:  my main photo-buddy bought a Z3100 a couple months before me.  I figured (incorrectly) that he’d lead the way for me.  He basically has the same issues, but a much different take with workarounds and isn’t pursing photography with as much interest now.  Last parting shot; I’m partially color-blind… but do have a GMB color chart and can still read those RGB numbers.  

Tonight:  work on my own profiles, probably stick with Satin paper first.  Pardon the long posts, I don't know how to do it otherwise.  Ralph

[reburns]

I made a profile for HP Satin using the on-board spectro.  I previously only used the factory profile since I don't have APS.  Not perfection, but no mud.  I'm not expecting perfection for a long while.  

Edits:  Last night I ended up not being sure if I had selected the new profile, but tonight I reprinted with a better understanding of which profile was the new creation.  Either I have correctly used the new profile both days, or the differences are too small for me to see at this late hour.  But no mud.

I will invest a little into adding a viewing area in my office... a magnet board and some lights shining on it.  I wonder if I can get a whiteboard or if it will throw off the visual interpretation too much and I should get something like 14% gray.

[reburns]

G'day folks -  I'm printing a thousand times better now.  Here's some things that have changed:

a.  Installed a proofing area.  It consists of a row of Solux lights illuminating a magnetic white board.  I covered the white board with neutral gray studio seamless paper, and hang prints with magnets.  The search for the elusive perfect magnet continues.    

b.  Worked with some PS adjustments for printing.  I'm interested in hearing what other folks do.

c.  Since the Z3100 was a software PIA for my network and folks liked the 7900 so consistently, I put a Craigslist classified for the Z and shazam, in a couple days an Epson 7900 was in it's place with a remarkably small amount of cash lubricating the change.  Before the Z departed I was getting more consistent performance so am sure that I would have been able to make it work fine, but I am happy with this move.  

d.  Andrew Rodney is coming to town for a 1/2 day Epson Academy lecture.  I'll be interested in hearing his methods for prepping prints, especially for skin.

Bear in mind that I'm substantially deuteranopic or deuteranomalic red/green deficient, so I will benefit from different tools than the next person.  Thanks so much for the advice above, I am in debt to all you and am looking forward to less hardware fiddling and more paper cutting.  This morning I prepped three prints for a friend from photos taken yesterday, and am thrilled how quickly I could prepare prints that I love on the first go-around.  

Ralph

[marcsitkin]

a-Try Lee Valley tools for rare earth magnets. They're your best bet.

[reburns]

a-Try Lee Valley tools for rare earth magnets. They're your best bet.

Maybe.  I'm using a few neodymium magnets now, but they are so small and strong that it's easy to mark the prints.  A local "Great Frame-Up" store uses  white epoxy-coated ceramic magnets that are 3/8" x 7/8" x 1-7/8" from "Precision Molding" @ 847.671.2530 but are $2.75 apiece.