Michael's review of the P65+ is online

[Wayne Fox]

I will never understand the obsession with bigger better LCD on digital backs.  I can't' imagine anything easier and more reliable to shoot than a Phase back with the 4 button menu and the LCD that makes longer battery life possible.  All I ever go by is the histogram and highlight warnings.

Agreed.  I rarely chimp with my  p45.  A quick glance sometimes to confirm cropping, sometimes zooming in to confirm focus, but mainly just checking histogram to confirm my exposure.

[BernardLanguillier]

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/...lus-field.shtml

On the lack of sharpness with long lenses. I am not sure whether the problem Michael was facing is the same or not, but I used to have the problem with my Mamiya ZD (with the 300 f4.5 APO) and in the end I understood that the problem was most probably the result of too big an amount of play between the lens and body at mount level.

The reason why it took a long time to find out was that the amount of play was depending on the temperature... because of a subtle differential dilatation between body and mount... the colder the more obvious the problem was. At -10C it was next to impossible to get a correct connection between lens and body and many images were unsharp.

The Mamiya folks in Tokyo never admited the problem was real, but their insistant questioning on the type/age of the lens made me feel that they were aware of such problem when mounting older lenses on more recent bodies. I have no proof of this though.

This problem was one of the reasons I decide to move away from the Mamiya system.

Cheers,
Bernard

[David Grover / Capture One]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Hasselblad back have a fan for coolness.  Believe the Phase back relies on low power and NO moving parts to keep the chip cool and extend battery life.  the Phase back is practically indestructible (unless it falls in salt water of something like that).  I agree, we can't have everything but I would sure hate to see Phase go to a fan even if that would mean having a better LCD.  As I said, correct me if I''m wrong but I prefer no moving part back.  Eleanor

Certainly! Didn't I already answer this today?  

We have not used a fan for well over a year now.

As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements.  Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect.  Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience.  Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life.  The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.

Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!),  We the consumer are very demanding.  We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.

Remember our old Nokia phones that would last for four days on one charge?  Now I am down to an iPhone which lasts about a day.  Oh well!

David

[Doug Peterson]

As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements.  Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect.

It's that "nothing special" we do which helps our backs expose cleanly for 1 hour using the same senor with which Hassy couldn't exceed 30 seconds.

__________________
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Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
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[Mort54]

Agreed.  I rarely chimp with my  p45.  A quick glance sometimes to confirm cropping, sometimes zooming in to confirm focus, but mainly just checking histogram to confirm my exposure.

I agree that the existing screen if perfectly fine for histogram checking. But the reason I'd like a better screen is for critical focus adjustment in live view. I've become spoiled by my D3, where I can zoom live view up to 400%, and then manually fine tune focus to the gnats @ss. I'd love to have that capability on my P45+. I'm not just talking about checking focus, I'm talking about manual focus in real time and seeing the results on-screen in real time. Until I tried it on my D3, I never realized how incredibly useful this is.

[BernardLanguillier]

They don't have any real live view (yes, they have it with a laptop attached, but that still sucks). For something with this kind of resolution, used out in the field, I'd want to focus via live view at maximum magnification, rather than relying on AF.

Is the lack of in back live view on the P65+ a confirmed fact? The need is so screamingly obvious that I had taken it for granted that it would be available.

Considering the fact that a view camera with digitar like lenses is IMHO the only valuable usage of a high res back, if there indeed isn't a real live view in camera, then I have just lost interest in the P65+. Those things are IMHO impossible to focus critically without live view... and the difference between critical and sloppy focus on the P65+ is close to the difference between a P65+ and a P45+.

Heck, even my D3x is impossible to focus critically in many cases without live view...

Cheers,
Bernard

[guyharrison]

Hi,

I am a new member and have some questions about the p65.  I have a Contax 645 with every lens, and am going to the Phase One event at Capture Integration in Miami next week.  I am a long time film shooter, but it looks like digital has reached the quality of film, and is moving away from the planned obsolence business model towards quality that won't need upgrades every two years for mucho $$$$!

I see that the p65+ still only has about a one minute max. exposure.  I was hoping that this would have changed in the upgraded production units.  I do landscape/cityscape work and, really, long exposure is more important to me than a 15 mp camera that does ISO 3200 at 1.5 frames/sec.  I don't see how many shooters will use this, as we can get higher resolution, low noise at these speeds, and 7-8 fps from DSLRs.  They are a better tool for the type of shooting that would require high ISO and fast shooting.

For landscape under moonlit skies, the northern lights, star trails, light painting, cityscapes with blurred light trails, waterscapes with the ethereal foggy look that really long exposures give -- I thing more shooters using MFDB would be much more interested in the ability to capture these shots than in low resolution high ISO images.

I am really amazed to see the Phase One and Hasselblad reps on this site with friendly competition and really useful information.

Can the Phase One folks give me some input on this?  Will the p65 finally get long exposure capability?  Otherwise I will have to get a used/demo p45+ and wait to upgrade later which may be more than I can afford.

Oh, by the way, I am one of those that would like a better LCD so I can magnify and confirm focus and depth of field, in the field and without tethering, just my two cents.  However, can the backs output to one of the high quality 5'-7" LCD monitors used for pro video?  That might be even better.

Thanks!

Guy

[michael]

All medium format backs currently use CCDs, which are not suitable technically for Live View.

Michael

[Nick-T]

It's that "nothing special" we do which helps our backs expose cleanly for 1 hour using the same senor with which Hassy couldn't exceed 30 seconds.

Hi Doug
In my opinion you do the (excellent) brand that you represent no favours by constantly looking for opportunities to snipe at your competition.
 No one ever sold a Porsche by telling a customer how crap Ferraris are.
Nick-T

[eleanorbrown]

Glad I said "correct me" on the fan issue,  because on this, I was not sure.  Honestly I love Hasselblad....had the V system, now the H2 system and many fantastic H lenses.  Sure wish Hasselblad would re think their marketing decision to close their system to other back manufacturers.  I have had to keep an extra H2 body boxed, brand new, hoarded in my closet should something awful happen to my current H2 body that could not be fixed.  Just wishing....... Eleanor

Certainly! Didn't I already answer this today?  

We have not used a fan for well over a year now.

As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements.  Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect.  Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience.  Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life.  The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.

Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!),  We the consumer are very demanding.  We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.

Remember our old Nokia phones that would last for four days on one charge?  Now I am down to an iPhone which lasts about a day.  Oh well!

David

[Mort54]

All medium format backs currently use CCDs, which are not suitable technically for Live View.

Hmmmmm. I thought you could connect a laptop up to a Phase One back and get real interactive live view that way. I've heard of people using that approach to adjust focus in real time. If you can do it via a laptop, there should be no technical reason why it can't be done via the LCD (other than heat, obviously). Maybe I've misunderstood. You'd need to repeatedly read out the sensor, but why would CCDs specifically preclude repeatedly reading out the image.

[Doug Peterson]

I am really amazed to see the Phase One and Hasselblad reps on this site with friendly competition and really useful information.

Hi Doug
In my opinion you do the (excellent) brand that you represent no favours by constantly looking for opportunities to snipe at your competition.
 No one ever sold a Porsche by telling a customer how crap Ferraris are.
Nick-T

re: Nick Yikes, your comments prompted me to pull up my recent posts list and you're right! I have been a bit snippy of late. I've had somewhat of a bad week personally (nothing too bad).

So to be completely clear Hasselblad makes an absolutely fabulous product, as does Leaf. In the high-end space there are few bad choices, mostly just choices and compromises between priorities. David is an absolutely stand up fellow and I thoroughly enjoy whenever we disagree. Indeed the comparison to Porsche and Ferraris is right on.

It is only David's good nature and ability which allows the sort of back and forth he and I have, and which, of late I have allowed to carry me a bit far :-). My apologies to David and the board in general for being snippy this week.

No apologies for the video though: that was just plain funny :-).

__________________
Doug Peterson (Email Me)
Head of Technical Services
Phase One, Canon, Apple, Profoto, Eizo & More
National: 877.217.9870  |  Cell: 740.707.2183
Newsletter: Read Latest or Sign Up

[David Grover / Capture One]

Glad I said "correct me" on the fan issue,  because on this, I was not sure.  Honestly I love Hasselblad....had the V system, now the H2 system and many fantastic H lenses.  Sure wish Hasselblad would re think their marketing decision to close their system to other back manufacturers.  I have had to keep an extra H2 body boxed, brand new, hoarded in my closet should something awful happen to my current H2 body that could not be fixed.  Just wishing....... Eleanor

Eleanor,

If you're H2 could not be fixed we would not abandon you at all under our Customer Care Plan.

Consider taking one out for your H2's...

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support...-main-menu.aspx

Every 100,000 exposures you get a 50% discount on a total refurbishment of the camera (495 Euros)

I won't go into too much detail here on this thread as it is unfair to the original post.  Have a chat with your Hasselblad dealer for all details.

David

[Mort54]

Is the lack of in back live view on the P65+ a confirmed fact? The need is so screamingly obvious that I had taken it for granted that it would be available.

Well, it's certainly not available in my P45+. And I haven't seen any of the P65+ marketing material call it out. If they had added it to the P65+, I'd think they would be trumpeting it.

[BlasR]

We have not used a fan for well over a year now.

As I said on another thread elsewhere today, ALL manufacturers of any electrical equipment are constantly juggling different elements of the system with power requirements.  Phase does nothing special compared to anyone else in this respect.  Its especially important in our case as we use a relatively small battery to power the whole system for convenience.  Incidentally a cooling fan uses so little wattage it has little or no effect on battery life.  The advantage to us is that the CCD runs a few degrees cooler on the heat-sink based system.

Battery life is an R&D project in itself (Just ask Apple!),  We the consumer are very demanding.  We want big colorful LCD's, fast processing, multi tasking... and so on.

I love my H3-50 waiting for the 60...

p65+ $40,000.00

H3-50 $28,000.00  plus camera/lens. Plus, the most important  of all,customer service.

My next will be H3-60  then  I will demand, solar power/moon power.

voice(spanish) command to shot, so hand free  

in what ever else I will think before I get something else.

Some people keep asking what is the cost, of exchange from one back to p65+.

If you change your digital back, in the pass, you can't do it now.. That is what they say before.

So sale your p45+ and go for new one,  maybe H3-50?  $28,000.00 OR $ 40,000.00 plus the cost of the camera/lens. auch


I do not think Michael is biased, he had a lot of hasselblad cameras/lens

if hasselblad want him to review their product, send a camera, simple is that.

I love hasseblad customer service, to bad the I dind't know Chris Lawery Clawery before phase customer service went so bad.

BlasR

[Doug Peterson]

I see that the p65+ still only has about a one minute max. exposure.  I was hoping that this would have changed in the upgraded production units.  I do landscape/cityscape work and, really, long exposure is more important to me than a 15 mp camera that does ISO 3200 at 1.5 frames/sec.  I don't see how many shooters will use this, as we can get higher resolution, low noise at these speeds, and 7-8 fps from DSLRs.  They are a better tool for the type of shooting that would require high ISO and fast shooting.

For landscape under moonlit skies, the northern lights, star trails, light painting, cityscapes with blurred light trails, waterscapes with the ethereal foggy look that really long exposures give -- I thing more shooters using MFDB would be much more interested in the ability to capture these shots than in low resolution high ISO images.
[...]

Can the Phase One folks give me some input on this?  Will the p65 finally get long exposure capability?  Otherwise I will have to get a used/demo p45+ and wait to upgrade later which may be more than I can afford.

Thanks!

Guy

The P45+ is your best bet for long exposures, and 39 megapixels is still a LOT of resolution, even if its not the *highest* anymore.

The P65+ will likely get slightly better long exposures than what it can do today. But it will never come close to the long exposure abilities of the P45+ and in general you should avoid buying based on promised future improvements.

Oh, by the way, I am one of those that would like a better LCD so I can magnify and confirm focus and depth of field, in the field and without tethering, just my two cents.  However, can the backs output to one of the high quality 5'-7" LCD monitors used for pro video?  That might be even better.

It's a great idea and I think it would be a godsend but it is neither currently possible, nor likely in the near future.

[eleanorbrown]

thanks David.  Last summer in alaska my H2 fell on the ground and ruined the shutter button/grip mechanism.  I sent it in to New jersey and they sent it on to Sweden where they followed my wishes to "make it as good as new" (replacing a bunch of stuff).  It is is excellent working condition now so I didn't have to get my "hoarded new H2" out of the closet!    also had a very recent in warranty repair on my HC 100 2.2 lens (my sharpest of my lenses)  and it also works perfectly.  Great service. Eleanor

Eleanor,

If you're H2 could not be fixed we would not abandon you at all under our Customer Care Plan.

Consider taking one out for your H2's...

http://www.hasselblad.com/service--support...-main-menu.aspx

Every 100,000 exposures you get a 50% discount on a total refurbishment of the camera (495 Euros)

I won't go into too much detail here on this thread as it is unfair to the original post.  Have a chat with your Hasselblad dealer for all details.

David

[Mort54]

Mort:

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.

Well, I'm probably being overly critical. I have no trouble saying Phase One backs, including the P65+, deliver superb image quality. I have a p45+ and I love the files I get from it. It's just that quite some time has passed since the P45+ came out, and time marches on, and MF is under seige by the economic downturn, and useability improvements just keep getting ignored. As an engineer, I have no doubt that there are good reasons for many of these tradeoffs. But I also have no doubt that some of these issues can be improved on. My disappointment with the P65+ is probably unfair, and ignores all of the good things that you have added to it, but I don't see the things I'm complaining about as being in any way trivial either.

[ndevlin]

Can we pause for a minute to observe that Phase One is a small, closely-held company, making an amazing niche-product which is an amalgam of mechanical and digital artistry.  The fact that they have remained a class-leader is impressive in and of itself.  

Sure, with these sort of price tags, we want the world. The battery issue is especially maddening. (I blew two back batteries and a set of camera batteries in one evening shooting an abandoned research station in  Antarctica -- all long exposures.  By comparison, the 5D2's batteries have spectacular capacity). But, and it's a big but, consider that battery technology is the bleeding edge of R&D in countless sectors at the moment (least of which is the auto industry).  Billions are spent annually trying to figure out better batteries. I, for one, can't really get down on a few dozens guys (and gals) who make these amazing back for failing to solve this one.  

What the MF systems are really missing is image stabilization.   I've had exactly the same critical sharpness problem Michael describes with tripod-mounted long glass on the Mamiya system, as well as with handheld shooting at moderate speeds.  When coupled with MF's traditionally poor high-ISO performance, this is a real killer.

While I don't expect any of the DB makers to develop their own IS systems any more than I'd expect them to invent new battery technology, they really have to think about licensing this tech into their next generation of backs in order to stay relevant.

- N.

[hubell]

Can't you use a little OQO computer with its 5" screen to tether in the field?