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Author Topic: advise 8 megapixel camera for landscape & nature  (Read 4666 times)

stef

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advise 8 megapixel camera for landscape & nature
« on: June 09, 2004, 03:54:16 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']yep yep

I'm also "falling in favor" of the A2 ;
seems very easy to use, has good results in terms of pictures, good raw implementation

with 200 mm the anti shake seems quite relevant because I know I won't be running around with a tripod

thx for the advice

 [/font]
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stef

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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2004, 06:04:22 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']I've read the complete manual of the A2. I also went to a shop and got to hold it for a while...
It felt -a bit- like a toy.
Nothing wrong with it, the specs & utibility are amazing. Just that human touch counts also.

I'm also impressed with the D70 (which seems more userfriendly and has better performance than the digital rebel).

Yet, the main thing I find a pity with DSLR's is that you can't use the LCD screen when shooting.
For me, the LCD is not a gimmick. You can easily and rapidly try different angles, you can reach angles and shoot in positions you can't do with a DSLR, you can -subtly- observe people and make shots without them getting nervous, or regarding you as a Japenese freak, ...

Ok, the LCD does not give you the same quality as a viewfinder but when you're framing the shot, you're just interested in a global view ...

DSLR users, what are your experiences with (the lack of) an LCD? Don't you feel like you're missing something.

And is there any change DSLR's would provide that possibility in the near future.
Because, to me it does not seem to be a technical issue -I don't see why DSLR's couldn't provide the same use of the LCD- , but rather a philosophical one.

Your ideas ?[/font]
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stef

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« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2004, 04:15:22 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']The minolta uses sensors to switch between evf and lcd view, so one could use the same principle to switch on a DSLR. But, in conclusion there seems in fact to be a technical challenge to get a live LCD feed to work on a DSLR.

My main question though was : don't you miss the possibilities in terms of usability of a live LCD feed, aspecially in a non-studio situation ?[/font]
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wolfy

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« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2004, 04:57:51 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
[quote Having an optical viewfinder eliminates any real need for an EVF.
Ok....unless;

"Need" is in the aspirations of the beholder ;-)

Walk a mile with me in the shoes of a nut!

Think large-format landscape 'field-kit'.

Keep the tripod(and focussing-cloth), but exchange a 1Ds (let's say) for the LF camera...
and a nice selection of "L"-glass(and maybe a Zeiss 21mm) for the huge LF lenses...
and a digital sensor/battery/CF combo for 100-or-so sheets of LF film, holders, etc.

Add a lap-top to get back some of the weight you've saved, equipment-wise(wanting, of course, to keep the whole endeavor a "manly" undertaking ;-),

Connect the "not-needed' live preview(mirror-up), to the laptop, ...throw the focussing-cloth over your head, and ENJOY(!) the same deliberate, careful composing, exposure adjustment, and focus the easy to see now scene, on the wide-screen, bigger even than your old beloved 8X10 view camera ... Could a 15-inch image with 786,000 pixels(or more...and maybe even MAGNIFIED on top of that(!) be a tad easier to see than a 2-inch 120,000 one...or be easier to enjoy than the one you get while squinting through the camera's VF? And WHAT? All this RIGHT SIDE UP?

All set? might as well leave the mirror up, and shoot with the remote.)

OK, Got the perfect image.  Not happy with a mere 8X10, 13x19, whatever?  The while you're set-up, make a few adjustments and take a few more.

This new-fangled 'stitching" stuff will give you resolution beyond your old 8X10's fondest dreams, given enough images-pieces to combine.

Fantasy? Yeah.

Not-for-everyone? Yeah.

Never cared about that ;-)

[["The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, but the unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to him -- therefore all progress depends upon the unreasonable man"...Samuel Butler]]

More than you wanted to know about why I asked in the first place.  

Thanks for the responses![/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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advise 8 megapixel camera for landscape & nature
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2004, 04:41:49 pm »

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']Do yourself a favor and spend some time looking through the EVF of a Minolta A2.  Really look through it.  Focus with it.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']I have and it's not in the same league as the optical finder on my 1Ds. A few model generations from now I'm sure the EVF will catch up, but it's not there yet.[/font]
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stef

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« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2004, 11:46:15 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Hey,

I'm an amateur and looking to get into the field of photography. I don't know much (yet) about photography but I have a good eye for pretty pictures. I also have a lot of experience in graphics in general.

I'm looking for a good 8 megapixel camera and wonder if somebody can assist me.

I'd like to use the camera mainly for nature and landscape photography but also want it to be a good camera for general purposes. I want a wide angle and a tele. The camera has to be quite responsive. I'll go for a compact camera because it has a greater depth of field.

I have my eye on a Sony F828 or a Canon Powershot Pro1.
I'm not really certain which to choose.

I'm always liked Canon in general yet the Sony F828 has a really nice feel to it. Only the Sony has considerable problems with purple fringing.

I'm really into classic pictures with the sun rising or going down in the sea. Yet, I don't have the experience to tell that in that situation I will experience a lot of purple fringing problems.  I also like "tree" pictures (where I know I will have problems with fringing).

I also liked the design of the Sony F828 where you can turn the body relative to the lens. Yet, I wonder whether you can use that feature while taking pictures outdoors (in the sun). Which is the better one : an LCD you can twist and turn (like the Canon) or a body you can turn. A which will suffer most from bad visiblity in the sun ?

Thx in advance.[/font]
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2004, 11:00:55 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']You might wish to read the reviews on this site.  Michael quit using the F828 and switched to the A2.

The A2 has such a good EVF that I would imagine that you would rarely shoot from the LCD.  Perhaps if you needed to shoot over a crowd....  In that event it's not likely that the sunlight would be falling directly on the LCD screen.

And you get IS....[/font]
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rqualls

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« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2004, 04:21:14 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']You might want to check out DPreview on the A2 before you make a decision....not so favorable.[/font]
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dbarthel

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« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2004, 10:09:39 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Bear in mind, that at the price of an A2, you can go with a Digital Rebel or Nikon D70 and can grow into the future. Absolute megapixel count does not reflect total image quality. Both of the entry level DSLR's will cream the 8mp units for image quality. And both have a real viewfinder.[/font]
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Bobtrips

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« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2004, 09:38:34 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']A couple of points.  

You aren't going to get a live LCD image on dSLRs that use mirror/glass viewfinders.  The mirror is in the way.

"New" often feels strange.  After using a film SLR for a long time you might find something such as the A2 'toy-like'.  But after a bit of A2 use you might find a SLR or dSLR 'large and cumbersome'.

Both dSLRs and fixed-lens digitals have something to offer that the other can't.  I suspect that this is the way that things will be for the next year or two.  In the near future I expect to see digitals with exchangeable lenses, 'half-frame' sensors, and EVF viewfinders (and live LCDs).  

Because the weight and bulk of the mirror/glass viewfinder can be left behind and because lenses are being developed for smaller, half-frame, sensors these cameras will be close to the size/weight of the A2 but take D70/300D/etc. quality photographs.[/font]
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wolfy

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« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2004, 04:36:30 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote
A couple of points.  

You aren't going to get a live LCD image on dSLRs that use mirror/glass viewfinders.  The mirror is in the way.

Gotta ask "Why not?" (in my ignorance).

Give me an old-fashioned manual "put the da** miror UP" switch, let me view what the sensor sees, do all my "pre everything evaluations(frame/exposure,focus,etc.), then I'll just drop the mirror and shoot.

Yeah, ...more circuitry. I'll pay for it ;-) ( PRE-view vs. RE-view. Circuitry either way, no?)

Probably something I'm missing here, ...not a computer geek. [/font]
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wolfy

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« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2004, 08:29:51 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']
Quote from: Jonathan Wienke,June 14 You can have either a live sensor or optical view, but not both simultaneously, unless you use a partially reflective fixed mirror and give up a stop of effective ISO noise performance. And have a dim viewfinder to boot. Having a manual mirror control is pointless.[/quote

Hi Jonathan,
(Keep my confessed ignorance in-mind, while I pursue this a little ;-)

I didn't think I was suggesting "both simultaneously".

I was picturing a live feed with mirror UP, ...optical VF with mirror DOWN.

(Talking tripod use/ stationary subject here.)

In other-words, the mirror is up in this instance not so there will be no mirror-vibration during the shot (unless I LEAVE it up), but so that it will NOT interefere with the sensor's reception and feed-to-the-LCD PRE(not during)-shot.
Any possibility for that? ???[/font]
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Scott_H

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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2004, 07:13:22 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']I have an Olympus E-20 which allow the lcd to be used as well as the optical viewfinder.  I never use the lcd for live preview, I find the optical viewfinder much more useful.  Of course, the lcd on the e-20 isn't very good, but even if it were better I think it would be tough to beat looking through the lens.[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2004, 04:06:53 pm »

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']In other-words, the mirror is up in this instance not so there will be no mirror-vibration during the shot (unless I LEAVE it up), but so that it will NOT interefere with the sensor's reception and feed-to-the-LCD PRE(not during)-shot.
Any possibility for that? ???[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']Not likely, you are talking about having the expenses and engineering challenges of both an optical viewfinder and an EVF. Having an optical viewfinder eliminates any real need for an EVF.[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2004, 06:07:25 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Like I said, ain't gonna happen soon. What you're talking about means taking live video off the sensor, full resolution, at at least 15 frames per second, preferably 30 or more. One reason LCD/EVF viewfinders are so small is because they are LOW resolution. 640x480 if you're lucky. The technology isn't there yet. In 10 years, it will probably be feasible, and 50MP cameras could be made to output images at 15FPS full-resolution via some super-firewire link to a laptop with a large high-resolution display. But not today.[/font]
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stef

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« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2004, 07:50:23 am »

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']where i do miss the live lcd feed is for street/travel photography where i don't want my eye stuck against the viewfinder. it's nice to be able to interact with someone, and not have the camera influence their behaviour (camera shyness), thereby being able to capture those great expressions.

also, i definitely find the live lcd feed to regain some photographic imagination. it's like the feeling as a child when you picked up a camera for the first time! it opens your eyes to a world beyond having your eye stuck to the camera. you tend to see things a little differently when you first play a camera with a live lcd.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']My thought exactly.

Natural emotions are much easier to capture this way.

Also, my opinion is that using the viewfinder creates a kind of 'binocular effect'. Ever saw a bird flying in the sky and wanted to look at it using the binoculars. Not easy to find huh.

I experience the same effect with the viewfinder (even with a wide lens ) : it narrows your view and your options.

First, this amateur likes to use his eyes and look for a nice position/orientation/.... Then I'd like to frame the picture and try to catch as much of my visual experience into the picture ( which is always just a downsized experience as it cannot capture it as we see it ).

I find it easier to frame things and try different positions and angles with a LCD.  You can also still use 'your normal  sight' and compare the two views to get a close match. A viewfinder narrows your sight ánd your movement.  Not easy to move your camera and try different angles when you're holding it next to your face. And careful you don't fall of that ledge trying to get the best angle...

Ok, so I can't see whether everything is perfectly focused. Well, I do expect a AF to perform well ánd if the picture is not perfectly focused, i'll fix it in my editing program. Also, a picture for me is often just raw material. I'd like to tweak it, combine pictures, drow things out and stuff.

Maybe that's the difference with real photographers as I come from a general graphical domain into the world of photography and not the other way round.

I think a person reviewing the A2 on dpreview, got the difference between DSLR and digicams right when he said :

So, with the A2 you're trading image quality and speed of shooting for size, weight, tele range of zoom, movie mode, and composing on the LCD.

I would also add : ease of use ;

So what do we choose : great quality (aspecially with higher ISO's) but less possibilities or a good - but lesser - quality and more creative possibilities .

Pity we have to choose though !


 [/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2004, 05:10:23 pm »

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']Also, my opinion is that using the viewfinder creates a kind of 'binocular effect'. Ever saw a bird flying in the sky and wanted to look at it using the binoculars. Not easy to find huh.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']This depends on the focal length of the lens. At 350mm, yes, you're right. At 17mm, definitely not.

I agree that using an external LCD finder is handy for stealthy street shooting. A good P&S digital has several advantages for that sort of thing, including wide DOF, silent operation, and the LCD finder.[/font]
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Arahne

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« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2004, 12:37:17 am »

[font color=\'#000000\']Both models have problems with abberrations (with red, green, blue, yellow fringes). Usually it is evident when you overexpose your pics. Exclude this problems when considering 28-200 (or more) digicam. Simply because it is impossible to find long zoom prosumer camera without it.
About the body twisting.
It depends on how sun lights your lcd, not on construction of it.[/font]
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Gary_Berg

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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2004, 04:31:45 pm »

[font color=\'#000000\']Phil at DPReview did not fall in love with the A2, but I'd say that the users in his Minolta forum love it. And Michael seems to really like his, and mine is a real gem too.[/font]
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2004, 07:21:23 pm »

Quote
[font color=\'#000000\']Give me an old-fashioned manual "put the da** miror UP" switch, let me view what the sensor sees, do all my "pre everything evaluations(frame/exposure,focus,etc.), then I'll just drop the mirror and shoot.[/font]
[font color=\'#000000\']The problem lies in getting 30 frames per second off (the minimum frame rate you need for a decent electronic viewfinder) a multi-megapixel imager. Digicams "cheat" and don't use every pixel on the sensor for EVF, but the quality and frame rate of an EVF is significantly lower than you can get with an optical viewfinder, which is what requires the mirror. You can have either a live sensor or optical view, but not both simultaneously, unless you use a partially reflective fixed mirror and give up a stop of effective ISO noise performance. And have a dim viewfinder to boot. Having a manual mirror control is pointless.[/font]
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